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Made in us
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon






3. Choose Ranged Weapon
The weapons a model has are listed on its datasheet. If a model has several weapons, it can shoot all of them at the same target, or it can shoot each at a different enemy unit. Similarly, if a unit contains more than one model, they can shoot at the same, or different targets as you choose. In either case, declare how you will split the shooting unit’s shots before any dice are rolled, and resolve all the shots against one target before moving on to the next.

Both the description of the loadout under the statline as well as the weapon list are both within "datasheet".
Thus, as per RAW, because the weapons that a model has are on the datasheet, if a unit has several weapons on the datasheet, it can shoot all of them without having to pay points to take the weapon.
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

But the datasheet with also say what a model comes equipped with.

So 5 Marines have bolters on their datasheet and are noted as being equipped as such

   
Made in us
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon






 Galef wrote:
But the datasheet with also say what a model comes equipped with.

So 5 Marines have bolters on their datasheet and are noted as being equipped as such
Yeah but RAW, you can fire all he weapons listed on the datasheet, i.e. the Weapons chart.
   
Made in es
Guard Heavy Weapon Crewman




 skchsan wrote:
 Galef wrote:
But the datasheet with also say what a model comes equipped with.

So 5 Marines have bolters on their datasheet and are noted as being equipped as such
Yeah but RAW, you can fire all he weapons listed on the datasheet, i.e. the Weapons chart.

No, the weapons profiles do not count as listed, what counts as listed is what the datasheet says your model has( or what he has replaced it with).
Absolutely no one is going to let you get away with your interpretation
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

As much as I hate to say it, the weapons are technically on the datasheet, whether equipped or not

   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






I disagree, weapon OPTIONS are on the datasheet. There is a difference between bad RaW and wilfully ignoring the English language to make a point. The weapons a model has are listed in the default entry, and that can be altered by utilising the weapon options on the datasheet.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/16 19:38:03


 
   
Made in us
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon






 BaconCatBug wrote:
I disagree, weapon OPTIONS are on the datasheet. There is a difference between bad RaW and wilfully ignoring the English language to make a point. The weapons a model has are listed in the default entry, and that can be altered by utilising the weapon options on the datasheet.
Yes I agree, but the weapons listed under the "Weapon Options" are indeed "Weapons on the datasheet".

If you look at page 13 of the battle primer, it tells you No. 8 is called/referred to as "weapons". RAW for shooting should actually be reading:

3. Choose Ranged Weapon
The weapons a model is equipped with are listed on its datasheet under "Wargear". If a model is equipped with several weapons, it can shoot all of them at the same target, or it can shoot each at a different enemy unit. Similarly, if a unit contains more than one model, they can shoot at the same, or different targets as you choose. In either case, declare how you will split the shooting unit’s shots before any dice are rolled, and resolve all the shots against one target before moving on to the next.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/16 19:56:05


 
   
Made in es
Guard Heavy Weapon Crewman




"The weapons a model has are listed on his datasheet" is not the same as "a model has every weapon that appears on his datasheet" so it doesn't work that way

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/16 19:50:37


 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

Kaneda88 wrote:
"The weapons a model has are listed on his datasheet" is not the same as "a model has every weapon that appears on his datasheet" so it doesn't work that way
But that is what the OP is pointing out. It isnt' supposed to be "a model has every weapon that appears on his datasheet", but the way the shooting rules are written, it can be interpreted as such.

-

   
Made in us
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon






Kaneda88 wrote:
"The weapons a model has are listed on his datasheet" is not the same as "a model has every weapon that appears on his datasheet" so it doesn't work that way
Right, but the sentence not equating "a model has every weapon that appears on his datasheet" doens't prevent me from following the subsequent sentence "If a model has several weapons, it can shoot all of them". All the rules as per RAW only cares about whether the weapon is listed on its datasheet.
   
Made in us
Second Story Man





Astonished of Heck

 Galef wrote:
Kaneda88 wrote:
"The weapons a model has are listed on his datasheet" is not the same as "a model has every weapon that appears on his datasheet" so it doesn't work that way
But that is what the OP is pointing out. It isnt' supposed to be "a model has every weapon that appears on his datasheet", but the way the shooting rules are written, it can be interpreted as such.

-

Only if one is going to ignore the very relevant portions of the datasheet and how to read it.

It is sad that bad reading still leads to questions like this.

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
Made in us
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon






 Charistoph wrote:
 Galef wrote:
Kaneda88 wrote:
"The weapons a model has are listed on his datasheet" is not the same as "a model has every weapon that appears on his datasheet" so it doesn't work that way
But that is what the OP is pointing out. It isnt' supposed to be "a model has every weapon that appears on his datasheet", but the way the shooting rules are written, it can be interpreted as such.

-

Only if one is going to ignore the very relevant portions of the datasheet and how to read it.

It is sad that bad reading still leads to questions like this.
Except that you're told to reference it as a whole and not the relevant part - which is the point of the post.

They've gone out of the way to name/title each individual sections (see page 12-13 of the battle primer) of the datasheet, and yet you are told to reference the "datasheet" and not "wargear" section of the datasheet or "weapons" section of the datasheet.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/16 20:01:18


 
   
Made in us
Second Story Man





Astonished of Heck

 skchsan wrote:
 Charistoph wrote:
 Galef wrote:
Kaneda88 wrote:
"The weapons a model has are listed on his datasheet" is not the same as "a model has every weapon that appears on his datasheet" so it doesn't work that way
But that is what the OP is pointing out. It isnt' supposed to be "a model has every weapon that appears on his datasheet", but the way the shooting rules are written, it can be interpreted as such.

-

Only if one is going to ignore the very relevant portions of the datasheet and how to read it.

It is sad that bad reading still leads to questions like this.
Except that you're told to reference it as a whole and not the relevant part - which is the point of the post.

They've gone out of the way to name/title each individual sections (see page 12-13 of the battle primer) of the datasheet, and yet you are told to reference the "datasheet" and not "wargear" section of the datasheet or "weapons" section of the datasheet.

Because those have internal definitions and statements which define what a model has. Those are the "relevant portions of the datasheet and how to read it," I was speaking of. If you ignore much what the datasheet actually says (either literally or representationally), then the OP's interpretation is correct. A good interpretation does not rely on ignoring what is written and referenced.

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
Made in fr
Guard Heavy Weapon Crewman




 skchsan wrote:
Kaneda88 wrote:
"The weapons a model has are listed on his datasheet" is not the same as "a model has every weapon that appears on his datasheet" so it doesn't work that way
Right, but the sentence not equating "a model has every weapon that appears on his datasheet" doens't prevent me from following the subsequent sentence "If a model has several weapons, it can shoot all of them". All the rules as per RAW only cares about whether the weapon is listed on its datasheet.


I think you don't get what i am saying there is absolutely no reason to think that your models has a weapon whose profile appears on your datasheet but that the datasheet says he doesn't have. Unless you don't read the datasheets or want to get away with cheating. It's not bad RAW the OP is completely warping the sentence and making a logical falacy in his thesis
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





Here's a simple analogy.

You have a bank account at '#1 banking'

There is a list on a piece of paper that follows:
'We are the best Banking'
'Bank #1'
'#1 Banking'
'Just another Bank'

You are then told "The bank you have is on this list" True or false? True of course. Does that mean you automatically have an account at all the banks? No!

What that line is saying is that you can find the weapon that the model owns in the list of all possible weapons on the datasheet.

We're gonna need another Timmy!

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Made in us
Storm Trooper with Maglight





Fredericksburg, VA

 skchsan wrote:
 Galef wrote:
But the datasheet with also say what a model comes equipped with.

So 5 Marines have bolters on their datasheet and are noted as being equipped as such
Yeah but RAW, you can fire all he weapons listed on the datasheet, i.e. the Weapons chart.


No, they can fire the weapons that they have (i.e. are equipped with). You can't fire all the weapons shown because it doesn't say that - you can only fire the ones that the model 'has'. It does not say anywhere that a model has all the weapons that appear on its datasheet.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/16 20:25:25


 
   
Made in us
Captain of the Forlorn Hope





Chicago, IL

"The weapons a model has are listed on its datasheet."

By definition, only the weapons that are equipped are "The weapons a model has"

So you can ignore English if you like, but if you do not, then your interpretation is incorrect.

"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.

I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!

We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

 skchsan wrote:
3. Choose Ranged Weapon
The weapons a model has are listed on its datasheet. If a model has several weapons, it can shoot all of them at the same target, or it can shoot each at a different enemy unit. Similarly, if a unit contains more than one model, they can shoot at the same, or different targets as you choose. In either case, declare how you will split the shooting unit’s shots before any dice are rolled, and resolve all the shots against one target before moving on to the next.

Both the description of the loadout under the statline as well as the weapon list are both within "datasheet".
Thus, as per RAW, because the weapons that a model has are on the datasheet, if a unit has several weapons on the datasheet, it can shoot all of them without having to pay points to take the weapon.


Phew thanks for pointing this out! We’ve all been playing it wrong for a whole year, GW included!

No, wait... amazingly, we haven’t. Nothing to see here.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





And if you want to get real nit-picky about wording, "The weapons a model has..." is directly referencing the figure itself. So if you didn't glue on those grenades, guess what... no grenades! WYSIWYG.

I'm joking here but seriously, you have to really twist the meaning of the wording to think that a model automatically gets all weapons and options at no cost and ignoring the weapon choosing rules.

We're gonna need another Timmy!

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Except the fact that the sentence "The weapons a model has are listed on its datasheet." can be interpreted in multiple ways within the rules of English.

1. The weapons a model has are listed on its datasheet (the rules for/information pertaining to the weapon it's equipped with can be found on the datasheet)
2. The weapons a model has are listed on its datasheet (every weapon that a model has are listed on the datasheet)

Take for example, the sentence "I never said I stole her money." can read 8 different ways depending on which word the emphasis is put.

It IS a case of bad RAW, not a malicious interpretation of the RAW.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/16 21:14:40


 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

It’s only bad if you purposefully misinterpret it’s intent.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in us
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon






 JohnnyHell wrote:
It’s only bad if you purposefully misinterpret it’s intent.
RAW vs. RAI. I'm only discussing the ambiguity of the RAW, not it's intended meaning or effect.
   
Made in fr
Guard Heavy Weapon Crewman




 skchsan wrote:
Except the fact that the sentence "The weapons a model has are listed on its datasheet." can be interpreted in multiple ways within the rules of English.

1. The weapons a model has are listed on its datasheet (the rules for/information pertaining to the weapon it's equipped with can be found on the datasheet)
2. The weapons a model has are listed on its datasheet (every weapon that a model has are listed on the datasheet)

Take for example, the sentence "I never said I stole her money." can read 8 different ways depending on which word the emphasis is put.

It IS a case of bad RAW, not a malicious interpretation of the RAW.


2 is still not saying what you mean, every weapon that a model has are listed on the datasheet says the same as 1, shuffle it as much as you want it still doesn't say a model has every weapon that appears in his datasheet.
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

 skchsan wrote:
 JohnnyHell wrote:
It’s only bad if you purposefully misinterpret it’s intent.
RAW vs. RAI. I'm only discussing the ambiguity of the RAW, not it's intended meaning or effect.


Has a certain someone hacked your account?

I don’t think the RAW is ambiguous and it needs to be misinterpreted to fit your ‘interpretation’.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in gb
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






This has to be one of the cheesiest rules questions I've ever seen.

Is the question you're trying to pose - "I get all my weapon options for free if the profile is on my datasheet"? Obviously this is wrong.
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
This has to be one of the cheesiest rules questions I've ever seen.

Is the question you're trying to pose - "I get all my weapon options for free if the profile is on my datasheet"? Obviously this is wrong.


Indeed. It’s an ‘interpretation’ that relies on ignoring the rules on the Datasheets themselves and those prefacing Wargear lists in Codexes, then being literal to a fault. Patently invalid, but good for winding people up on a forum I guess.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/16 22:14:50


 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



Glasgow

On the one hand no it doesnt work like that as everyone says

On the other it would be slightly amusing to see the renegade knight become the best unit in the game. Seriously that thing has every knight weapon on its datasheet and you would only need pay for 2 chainswords
   
Made in fr
Guard Heavy Weapon Crewman




U02dah4 wrote:
On the one hand no it doesnt work like that as everyone says

On the other it would be slightly amusing to see the renegade knight become the best unit in the game. Seriously that thing has every knight weapon on its datasheet and you would only need pay for 2 chainswords

Try a leman russ shooting twice with every possible main weapon

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/16 22:22:26


 
   
Made in us
Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon






 An Actual Englishman wrote:
This has to be one of the cheesiest rules questions I've ever seen.

Is the question you're trying to pose - "I get all my weapon options for free if the profile is on my datasheet"? Obviously this is wrong.
Obviously RAI its not supposed to mean as per the OP - but the loophole DOES exist at a basic linguistic level. Simple call out to "wargear" section or even the usage of the word "equipped" would make the rules tight. Instead, the rulebook chooses to go with "the weapons that a model has are listed on the datasheet." The "Weapons" profile chart is a weapons that are "listed on the datasheet" just as much as the verbal list in the "Wargear" section is also list of weapons hat are listed on the datasheet.
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Once again, I'll ask...who cares?

You've never played it this way, and you never will. So, why even discuss it? Another "herp derp, I'm so clever!" moment to share with the internet? Or do the people who bring up this nonsense get together and play absurdhammer somewhere with a catalogue of all these inane observations?

Are you doing anything with this information? Do you contact GW (politely) and inform them of what you believe to be a grammatical or typographical error? Why even post this kind of stuff?
   
 
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