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2018/07/16 19:17:41
Subject: RAW Units with multiple weapon options on datasheet can fire all of them without paying
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Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon
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3. Choose Ranged Weapon
The weapons a model has are listed on its datasheet. If a model has several weapons, it can shoot all of them at the same target, or it can shoot each at a different enemy unit. Similarly, if a unit contains more than one model, they can shoot at the same, or different targets as you choose. In either case, declare how you will split the shooting unit’s shots before any dice are rolled, and resolve all the shots against one target before moving on to the next.
Both the description of the loadout under the statline as well as the weapon list are both within "datasheet".
Thus, as per RAW, because the weapons that a model has are on the datasheet, if a unit has several weapons on the datasheet, it can shoot all of them without having to pay points to take the weapon.
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2018/07/16 19:23:53
Subject: RAW Units with multiple weapon options on datasheet can fire all of them without paying
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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But the datasheet with also say what a model comes equipped with.
So 5 Marines have bolters on their datasheet and are noted as being equipped as such
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2018/07/16 19:26:27
Subject: RAW Units with multiple weapon options on datasheet can fire all of them without paying
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Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon
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Galef wrote:But the datasheet with also say what a model comes equipped with.
So 5 Marines have bolters on their datasheet and are noted as being equipped as such
Yeah but RAW, you can fire all he weapons listed on the datasheet, i.e. the Weapons chart.
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2018/07/16 19:30:23
Subject: RAW Units with multiple weapon options on datasheet can fire all of them without paying
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Guard Heavy Weapon Crewman
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skchsan wrote: Galef wrote:But the datasheet with also say what a model comes equipped with.
So 5 Marines have bolters on their datasheet and are noted as being equipped as such
Yeah but RAW, you can fire all he weapons listed on the datasheet, i.e. the Weapons chart.
No, the weapons profiles do not count as listed, what counts as listed is what the datasheet says your model has( or what he has replaced it with).
Absolutely no one is going to let you get away with your interpretation
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2018/07/16 19:32:17
Subject: RAW Units with multiple weapon options on datasheet can fire all of them without paying
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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As much as I hate to say it, the weapons are technically on the datasheet, whether equipped or not
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2018/07/16 19:37:36
Subject: RAW Units with multiple weapon options on datasheet can fire all of them without paying
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Norn Queen
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I disagree, weapon OPTIONS are on the datasheet. There is a difference between bad RaW and wilfully ignoring the English language to make a point. The weapons a model has are listed in the default entry, and that can be altered by utilising the weapon options on the datasheet.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/16 19:38:03
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2018/07/16 19:39:46
Subject: RAW Units with multiple weapon options on datasheet can fire all of them without paying
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Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon
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BaconCatBug wrote:I disagree, weapon OPTIONS are on the datasheet. There is a difference between bad RaW and wilfully ignoring the English language to make a point. The weapons a model has are listed in the default entry, and that can be altered by utilising the weapon options on the datasheet.
Yes I agree, but the weapons listed under the "Weapon Options" are indeed "Weapons on the datasheet".
If you look at page 13 of the battle primer, it tells you No. 8 is called/referred to as "weapons". RAW for shooting should actually be reading:
3. Choose Ranged Weapon
The weapons a model is equipped with are listed on its datasheet under "Wargear". If a model is equipped with several weapons, it can shoot all of them at the same target, or it can shoot each at a different enemy unit. Similarly, if a unit contains more than one model, they can shoot at the same, or different targets as you choose. In either case, declare how you will split the shooting unit’s shots before any dice are rolled, and resolve all the shots against one target before moving on to the next.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/16 19:56:05
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2018/07/16 19:44:24
Subject: Re:RAW Units with multiple weapon options on datasheet can fire all of them without paying
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Guard Heavy Weapon Crewman
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"The weapons a model has are listed on his datasheet" is not the same as "a model has every weapon that appears on his datasheet" so it doesn't work that way
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/16 19:50:37
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2018/07/16 19:54:41
Subject: Re:RAW Units with multiple weapon options on datasheet can fire all of them without paying
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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Kaneda88 wrote:"The weapons a model has are listed on his datasheet" is not the same as "a model has every weapon that appears on his datasheet" so it doesn't work that way
But that is what the OP is pointing out. It isnt' supposed to be "a model has every weapon that appears on his datasheet", but the way the shooting rules are written, it can be interpreted as such.
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2018/07/16 19:54:56
Subject: Re:RAW Units with multiple weapon options on datasheet can fire all of them without paying
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Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon
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Kaneda88 wrote:"The weapons a model has are listed on his datasheet" is not the same as "a model has every weapon that appears on his datasheet" so it doesn't work that way
Right, but the sentence not equating "a model has every weapon that appears on his datasheet" doens't prevent me from following the subsequent sentence "If a model has several weapons, it can shoot all of them". All the rules as per RAW only cares about whether the weapon is listed on its datasheet.
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2018/07/16 19:58:28
Subject: Re:RAW Units with multiple weapon options on datasheet can fire all of them without paying
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Second Story Man
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Galef wrote:Kaneda88 wrote:"The weapons a model has are listed on his datasheet" is not the same as "a model has every weapon that appears on his datasheet" so it doesn't work that way
But that is what the OP is pointing out. It isnt' supposed to be "a model has every weapon that appears on his datasheet", but the way the shooting rules are written, it can be interpreted as such.
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Only if one is going to ignore the very relevant portions of the datasheet and how to read it.
It is sad that bad reading still leads to questions like this.
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Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right. |
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2018/07/16 19:59:33
Subject: Re:RAW Units with multiple weapon options on datasheet can fire all of them without paying
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Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon
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Charistoph wrote: Galef wrote:Kaneda88 wrote:"The weapons a model has are listed on his datasheet" is not the same as "a model has every weapon that appears on his datasheet" so it doesn't work that way
But that is what the OP is pointing out. It isnt' supposed to be "a model has every weapon that appears on his datasheet", but the way the shooting rules are written, it can be interpreted as such.
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Only if one is going to ignore the very relevant portions of the datasheet and how to read it.
It is sad that bad reading still leads to questions like this.
Except that you're told to reference it as a whole and not the relevant part - which is the point of the post.
They've gone out of the way to name/title each individual sections (see page 12-13 of the battle primer) of the datasheet, and yet you are told to reference the "datasheet" and not "wargear" section of the datasheet or "weapons" section of the datasheet.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/16 20:01:18
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2018/07/16 20:05:04
Subject: Re:RAW Units with multiple weapon options on datasheet can fire all of them without paying
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Second Story Man
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skchsan wrote: Charistoph wrote: Galef wrote:Kaneda88 wrote:"The weapons a model has are listed on his datasheet" is not the same as "a model has every weapon that appears on his datasheet" so it doesn't work that way
But that is what the OP is pointing out. It isnt' supposed to be "a model has every weapon that appears on his datasheet", but the way the shooting rules are written, it can be interpreted as such.
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Only if one is going to ignore the very relevant portions of the datasheet and how to read it.
It is sad that bad reading still leads to questions like this.
Except that you're told to reference it as a whole and not the relevant part - which is the point of the post.
They've gone out of the way to name/title each individual sections (see page 12-13 of the battle primer) of the datasheet, and yet you are told to reference the "datasheet" and not "wargear" section of the datasheet or "weapons" section of the datasheet.
Because those have internal definitions and statements which define what a model has. Those are the "relevant portions of the datasheet and how to read it," I was speaking of. If you ignore much what the datasheet actually says (either literally or representationally), then the OP's interpretation is correct. A good interpretation does not rely on ignoring what is written and referenced.
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Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right. |
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2018/07/16 20:07:19
Subject: Re:RAW Units with multiple weapon options on datasheet can fire all of them without paying
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Guard Heavy Weapon Crewman
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skchsan wrote:Kaneda88 wrote:"The weapons a model has are listed on his datasheet" is not the same as "a model has every weapon that appears on his datasheet" so it doesn't work that way
Right, but the sentence not equating "a model has every weapon that appears on his datasheet" doens't prevent me from following the subsequent sentence "If a model has several weapons, it can shoot all of them". All the rules as per RAW only cares about whether the weapon is listed on its datasheet.
I think you don't get what i am saying there is absolutely no reason to think that your models has a weapon whose profile appears on your datasheet but that the datasheet says he doesn't have. Unless you don't read the datasheets or want to get away with cheating. It's not bad RAW the OP is completely warping the sentence and making a logical falacy in his thesis
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2018/07/16 20:16:52
Subject: RAW Units with multiple weapon options on datasheet can fire all of them without paying
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Here's a simple analogy.
You have a bank account at '#1 banking'
There is a list on a piece of paper that follows:
'We are the best Banking'
'Bank #1'
'#1 Banking'
'Just another Bank'
You are then told "The bank you have is on this list" True or false? True of course. Does that mean you automatically have an account at all the banks? No!
What that line is saying is that you can find the weapon that the model owns in the list of all possible weapons on the datasheet.
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We're gonna need another Timmy!
6400 pts+ 8th
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2018/07/16 20:24:43
Subject: RAW Units with multiple weapon options on datasheet can fire all of them without paying
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Storm Trooper with Maglight
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skchsan wrote: Galef wrote:But the datasheet with also say what a model comes equipped with.
So 5 Marines have bolters on their datasheet and are noted as being equipped as such
Yeah but RAW, you can fire all he weapons listed on the datasheet, i.e. the Weapons chart.
No, they can fire the weapons that they have (i.e. are equipped with). You can't fire all the weapons shown because it doesn't say that - you can only fire the ones that the model ' has'. It does not say anywhere that a model has all the weapons that appear on its datasheet.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/16 20:25:25
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2018/07/16 20:26:17
Subject: RAW Units with multiple weapon options on datasheet can fire all of them without paying
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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"The weapons a model has are listed on its datasheet."
By definition, only the weapons that are equipped are "The weapons a model has"
So you can ignore English if you like, but if you do not, then your interpretation is incorrect.
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
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2018/07/16 20:30:54
Subject: RAW Units with multiple weapon options on datasheet can fire all of them without paying
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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skchsan wrote:3. Choose Ranged Weapon
The weapons a model has are listed on its datasheet. If a model has several weapons, it can shoot all of them at the same target, or it can shoot each at a different enemy unit. Similarly, if a unit contains more than one model, they can shoot at the same, or different targets as you choose. In either case, declare how you will split the shooting unit’s shots before any dice are rolled, and resolve all the shots against one target before moving on to the next.
Both the description of the loadout under the statline as well as the weapon list are both within "datasheet".
Thus, as per RAW, because the weapons that a model has are on the datasheet, if a unit has several weapons on the datasheet, it can shoot all of them without having to pay points to take the weapon.
Phew thanks for pointing this out! We’ve all been playing it wrong for a whole year, GW included!
No, wait... amazingly, we haven’t. Nothing to see here.
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Stormonu wrote:For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules" |
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2018/07/16 20:31:57
Subject: RAW Units with multiple weapon options on datasheet can fire all of them without paying
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Regular Dakkanaut
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And if you want to get real nit-picky about wording, "The weapons a model has..." is directly referencing the figure itself. So if you didn't glue on those grenades, guess what... no grenades! WYSIWYG.
I'm joking here but seriously, you have to really twist the meaning of the wording to think that a model automatically gets all weapons and options at no cost and ignoring the weapon choosing rules.
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We're gonna need another Timmy!
6400 pts+ 8th
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2018/07/16 21:13:20
Subject: Re:RAW Units with multiple weapon options on datasheet can fire all of them without paying
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Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon
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Except the fact that the sentence "The weapons a model has are listed on its datasheet." can be interpreted in multiple ways within the rules of English.
1. The weapons a model has are listed on its datasheet (the rules for/information pertaining to the weapon it's equipped with can be found on the datasheet)
2. The weapons a model has are listed on its datasheet (every weapon that a model has are listed on the datasheet)
Take for example, the sentence "I never said I stole her money." can read 8 different ways depending on which word the emphasis is put.
It IS a case of bad RAW, not a malicious interpretation of the RAW.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/07/16 21:14:40
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2018/07/16 21:16:52
Subject: RAW Units with multiple weapon options on datasheet can fire all of them without paying
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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It’s only bad if you purposefully misinterpret it’s intent.
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Stormonu wrote:For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules" |
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2018/07/16 21:19:57
Subject: RAW Units with multiple weapon options on datasheet can fire all of them without paying
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Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon
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RAW vs. RAI. I'm only discussing the ambiguity of the RAW, not it's intended meaning or effect.
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2018/07/16 21:49:36
Subject: Re:RAW Units with multiple weapon options on datasheet can fire all of them without paying
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Guard Heavy Weapon Crewman
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skchsan wrote:Except the fact that the sentence "The weapons a model has are listed on its datasheet." can be interpreted in multiple ways within the rules of English.
1. The weapons a model has are listed on its datasheet (the rules for/information pertaining to the weapon it's equipped with can be found on the datasheet)
2. The weapons a model has are listed on its datasheet (every weapon that a model has are listed on the datasheet)
Take for example, the sentence "I never said I stole her money." can read 8 different ways depending on which word the emphasis is put.
It IS a case of bad RAW, not a malicious interpretation of the RAW.
2 is still not saying what you mean, every weapon that a model has are listed on the datasheet says the same as 1, shuffle it as much as you want it still doesn't say a model has every weapon that appears in his datasheet.
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2018/07/16 21:53:57
Subject: RAW Units with multiple weapon options on datasheet can fire all of them without paying
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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skchsan wrote:RAW vs. RAI. I'm only discussing the ambiguity of the RAW, not it's intended meaning or effect.
Has a certain someone hacked your account?
I don’t think the RAW is ambiguous and it needs to be misinterpreted to fit your ‘interpretation’.
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Stormonu wrote:For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules" |
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2018/07/16 22:00:52
Subject: RAW Units with multiple weapon options on datasheet can fire all of them without paying
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Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta
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This has to be one of the cheesiest rules questions I've ever seen.
Is the question you're trying to pose - "I get all my weapon options for free if the profile is on my datasheet"? Obviously this is wrong.
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2018/07/16 22:14:36
Subject: RAW Units with multiple weapon options on datasheet can fire all of them without paying
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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An Actual Englishman wrote:This has to be one of the cheesiest rules questions I've ever seen.
Is the question you're trying to pose - "I get all my weapon options for free if the profile is on my datasheet"? Obviously this is wrong.
Indeed. It’s an ‘interpretation’ that relies on ignoring the rules on the Datasheets themselves and those prefacing Wargear lists in Codexes, then being literal to a fault. Patently invalid, but good for winding people up on a forum I guess.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/16 22:14:50
Stormonu wrote:For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules" |
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2018/07/16 22:17:55
Subject: RAW Units with multiple weapon options on datasheet can fire all of them without paying
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Glasgow
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On the one hand no it doesnt work like that as everyone says
On the other it would be slightly amusing to see the renegade knight become the best unit in the game. Seriously that thing has every knight weapon on its datasheet and you would only need pay for 2 chainswords
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2018/07/16 22:19:13
Subject: RAW Units with multiple weapon options on datasheet can fire all of them without paying
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Guard Heavy Weapon Crewman
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U02dah4 wrote:On the one hand no it doesnt work like that as everyone says
On the other it would be slightly amusing to see the renegade knight become the best unit in the game. Seriously that thing has every knight weapon on its datasheet and you would only need pay for 2 chainswords
Try a leman russ shooting twice with every possible main weapon
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/07/16 22:22:26
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2018/07/16 23:35:44
Subject: RAW Units with multiple weapon options on datasheet can fire all of them without paying
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Deathwing Terminator with Assault Cannon
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An Actual Englishman wrote:This has to be one of the cheesiest rules questions I've ever seen.
Is the question you're trying to pose - "I get all my weapon options for free if the profile is on my datasheet"? Obviously this is wrong.
Obviously RAI its not supposed to mean as per the OP - but the loophole DOES exist at a basic linguistic level. Simple call out to "wargear" section or even the usage of the word "equipped" would make the rules tight. Instead, the rulebook chooses to go with "the weapons that a model has are listed on the datasheet." The "Weapons" profile chart is a weapons that are "listed on the datasheet" just as much as the verbal list in the "Wargear" section is also list of weapons hat are listed on the datasheet.
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2018/07/16 23:48:54
Subject: Re:RAW Units with multiple weapon options on datasheet can fire all of them without paying
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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Once again, I'll ask...who cares?
You've never played it this way, and you never will. So, why even discuss it? Another "herp derp, I'm so clever!" moment to share with the internet? Or do the people who bring up this nonsense get together and play absurdhammer somewhere with a catalogue of all these inane observations?
Are you doing anything with this information? Do you contact GW (politely) and inform them of what you believe to be a grammatical or typographical error? Why even post this kind of stuff?
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