Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I am curious what other peoples opinions are on the cost of an earthshaker basilisk.
For a little over 100 points, you get a powerful cannon you can hide behind a building and shoot all day. And its tough enough to require some sustained firepower to bring down.

In my local group, they seem super effective, even when only bringing 3. They are run as catachan for the reroll, which usually means they are getting 5+ shots a turn. How do people counter / deal with them? Is there some weak spot we are missing? Especially if you are running a slower / gunline army that cannot tag them in melee combat, and get the second turn...

They’re powerful and cheap. One of the better AM units. But not so good that they’re unbeatable, I think.

As far as I can tell, nothing in the IG codex is costed properly.

I say this as a guy who runs the occasional Scorpius and Nightspinner --- indirect fire in general needs some nerfing in general. The Basilisk is incredibly cheap for what it does, I'd argue too cheap.

I'd like to an across-the-board -1 to hit when firing indirect, or at the very least a 12" minium range (meaning no Overwatch as well, etc.). I enjoy indirect fire. I think it's an asset, but it seems to be hugely varied in its cost and has too few negatives.

 Cultiststeve wrote:
I am curious what other peoples opinions are on the cost of an earthshaker basilisk.
For a little over 100 points, you get a powerful cannon you can hide behind a building and shoot all day. And its tough enough to require some sustained firepower to bring down.

In my local group, they seem super effective, even when only bringing 3. They are run as catachan for the reroll, which usually means they are getting 5+ shots a turn. How do people counter / deal with them? Is there some weak spot we are missing? Especially if you are running a slower / gunline army that cannot tag them in melee combat, and get the second turn...

Maybe?

Indirect fire is really strong, and generally undervalued, until you have too many to hide. However, I think the direct fire main battle tanks are all kind of overpriced, and if we brought down the price of Predators and such the heavy artillery guns would probably feel more appropriately priced. While IF is undervalued, it's not too far off from where I think it should be.

Like the IF artillery pieces are definitely underpriced compared to their direct fire main-line counterparts. A Leman Russ out of the box is almost 10 points more than a Manticore, for reasons I still don't understand. It's not like S9 lascannons cost more than S8 missile launchers. So should the Manticore be more expensive or the Russ be cheaper? Probably both, though at it's current cost the Manticore doesn't feel particularly egregious.

If you feel Russes are too expensive, how do you view Predators?

-can't ignore moving/shooting heavy weapons
-can't fire their turrets twice
-less toughness, fewer wounds
-can't take orders

The only advantage being a 3+ basic ballistic skill. It's really tough to balance Space Marine tanks vs. IG tanks.

 Elbows wrote:
I say this as a guy who runs the occasional Scorpius and Nightspinner --- indirect fire in general needs some nerfing in general. The Basilisk is incredibly cheap for what it does, I'd argue too cheap.

I'd like to an across-the-board -1 to hit when firing indirect, or at the very least a 12" minium range (meaning no Overwatch as well, etc.). I enjoy indirect fire. I think it's an asset, but it seems to be hugely varied in its cost and has too few negatives.

The negatives to indirect fire went out the window when templates went away.

 Elbows wrote:
If you feel Russes are too expensive, how do you view Predators?

-can't ignore moving/shooting heavy weapons
-can't fire their turrets twice
-less toughness, fewer wounds
-can't take orders

The only advantage being a 3+ basic ballistic skill. It's really tough to balance Space Marine tanks vs. IG tanks.

-IG tanks can't ignore moving and shooting heavy weapons either unless they are Tallarn. If they move more then half their distance they lose half of their damage output. So they can move a max of 5" and still get -1 on all of their other non turret weapons.
-IG tanks firing twice on their turn is the only reason why their damage output is anywhere near acceptable.
-You are correct on your third point.
-A LRBT can only be ordered by a ~200 point tank commander, so that is kind of an apples to oranges comparison.

I agree with you that a predator doesn't stack up with a LRBT. But, all the predator really needs is to get access to chapter tactics and maybe a ~10 point price reduction. I have no idea why space marine vehicles don't get chapter tactics, it is utterly stupid and I think a big misstep on GW's part.

The LRBT is pretty balanced though if you compare it with other vehicles from other codices.

w1zard wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
If you feel Russes are too expensive, how do you view Predators?

-can't ignore moving/shooting heavy weapons
-can't fire their turrets twice
-less toughness, fewer wounds
-can't take orders

The only advantage being a 3+ basic ballistic skill. It's really tough to balance Space Marine tanks vs. IG tanks.

-IG tanks can't ignore moving and shooting heavy weapons either unless they are Tallarn. If they move more then half their distance they lose half of their damage output. So they can move a max of 5" and still get -1 on all of their other non turret weapons.
-IG tanks firing twice on their turn is the only reason why their damage output is anywhere near acceptable.
-You are correct on your third point.
-A LRBT can only be ordered by a ~200 point tank commander, so that is kind of an apples to oranges comparison.

I agree with you that a predator doesn't stack up with a LRBT. But, all the predator really needs is to get access to chapter tactics and maybe a ~10 point price reduction. I have no idea why space marine vehicles don't get chapter tactics, it is utterly stupid and I think a big misstep on GW's part.

The LRBT is pretty balanced though if you compare it with other vehicles from other codices.

1. The range on the good weapons in the first place means you don't really have to move though.
2. I mean, you pay only a few more points for the extra BS and I'm PRETTY sure it was errata'd they can give orders to themselves so it isn't like you lose much taking the Tank Commander. You won't get OS on them like you would with Russes in a Spearhead but how important IS that dumb rule anyway?

On their own, I think they’re fairly costed, With all the buffs available, they become super good.

 Cultiststeve wrote:
They are run as catachan for the reroll, which usually means they are getting 5+ shots a turn.

Ok, that's 5 shots per turn. 2.5 will hit, no more than 2.08 of that will wound, and then you probably get a save. So we'll be generous and call it two models per turn dead. How many turns is it going to take to kill 100 points worth of models? At least 3 turns if you're shooting at elite infantry, longer than an entire game if it's a horde of cannon fodder on the other side of the table. Most of the time the Basilisk's firepower just isn't all that impressive.

Especially if you are running a slower / gunline army that cannot tag them in melee combat, and get the second turn...

Stop trying to out-gunline an IG gunline. Of course you're going to lose when you do something that foolish. Take faster units that can engage the gunline, and accept the Basilisk's firepower as acceptable losses for a couple of turns while you slaughter their other stuff.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Cultiststeve wrote:
They are run as catachan for the reroll, which usually means they are getting 5+ shots a turn.

Ok, that's 5 shots per turn. 2.5 will hit, no more than 2.08 of that will wound, and then you probably get a save. So we'll be generous and call it two models per turn dead. How many turns is it going to take to kill 100 points worth of models? At least 3 turns if you're shooting at elite infantry, longer than an entire game if it's a horde of cannon fodder on the other side of the table. Most of the time the Basilisk's firepower just isn't all that impressive.

Especially if you are running a slower / gunline army that cannot tag them in melee combat, and get the second turn...

Stop trying to out-gunline an IG gunline. Of course you're going to lose when you do something that foolish. Take faster units that can engage the gunline, and accept the Basilisk's firepower as acceptable losses for a couple of turns while you slaughter their other stuff.

I will say this is partially right. One of the things that is supposed to counter these indirect firing units and the pesky -1 To Hit outside 12" is supposed to be melee, but people either don't want to use melee, or they're stuck with bad melee units for the most part. We get some exceptions here and there, but not a lot.

We have to make a big distinction here. Are we talking about ITC or canon?

In canon 40K hiding a basilisk is really hard, you can hide one or maybe 2 and that's it. Even then, it is such a borderline LoS negation that when things start moving on the table you will get to shoot at some parts of it, at that point the fact that it is T6 11W starts being a big problem.

In ITC you have a lot of more freedom in how to put it out of LoS and they are bad news for your opponent.

In general i feel that all indirect fire weapons are not that good. Having the chance to indirect fire isn't such a good bonus, if i could take it as an upgrade i wouldn't pay it more than 8-10 points on a 100-150 point model.
They just happen to be the biggest winners in the ITC house ruling, and since many players play ITC you end up with the common opinion that indirect fire is undercosted.
The reality is that with standard rules, those models are failry costed.

That said, the basilisk is surely better than the manticore, since it has an additional point of AP, which is an absolute necessity to counteract the cover that you will ALWAYS grant to enemy non-infantry models when you shoot at them out of los (100% obscured by definition, they just need a toe in cover).

Leman Russ tanks are absolutely amazing for their current price. I don't really see how anyone can think they need a reduction. Also no one should be worrying about the cost of a Tank Commander when really they should be running Pask. BS 2+ and an extra order makes him a contender for best vehicle in the game.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Cultiststeve wrote:
They are run as catachan for the reroll, which usually means they are getting 5+ shots a turn.

Ok, that's 5 shots per turn. 2.5 will hit, no more than 2.08 of that will wound, and then you probably get a save. So we'll be generous and call it two models per turn dead. How many turns is it going to take to kill 100 points worth of models? At least 3 turns if you're shooting at elite infantry, longer than an entire game if it's a horde of cannon fodder on the other side of the table. Most of the time the Basilisk's firepower just isn't all that impressive.

Especially if you are running a slower / gunline army that cannot tag them in melee combat, and get the second turn...

Stop trying to out-gunline an IG gunline. Of course you're going to lose when you do something that foolish. Take faster units that can engage the gunline, and accept the Basilisk's firepower as acceptable losses for a couple of turns while you slaughter their other stuff.

But isn't the problem with IG, that if you try to melee them you get first hit by counter charging jebikers, and sometimes that is followed by ogryns? Although this maybe different for other armies, my expiriance is that that IG armies are almost as deadly in melee as eldar.

That really depends on the gunline and your units. Granted if the IG player is smart he will bubblewrap his Basilisks and block the way for melee units with cheap guardsmen. If the player plays catachan might aswell bait you to come to him with the Basilisks and then charges you with the s4 dudes after shooting at you.
Ogryins are surprsingly good this time around.
Additionally Custodes are Custodes not IG. What you described Karol is the 08/15 IG Custard competitive list /gunline. Not a fun match in a hobby store.

Best bet would be fighterbomber models that have enough mmph to destroy one or two basilisks at once.
Or you stretch his line to get an oppurtunity for shocktroops with the right equipment at the right time.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Cultiststeve wrote:
They are run as catachan for the reroll, which usually means they are getting 5+ shots a turn.

Ok, that's 5 shots per turn. 2.5 will hit, no more than 2.08 of that will wound, and then you probably get a save. So we'll be generous and call it two models per turn dead. How many turns is it going to take to kill 100 points worth of models? At least 3 turns if you're shooting at elite infantry, longer than an entire game if it's a horde of cannon fodder on the other side of the table. Most of the time the Basilisk's firepower just isn't all that impressive.

Especially if you are running a slower / gunline army that cannot tag them in melee combat, and get the second turn...

Stop trying to out-gunline an IG gunline. Of course you're going to lose when you do something that foolish. Take faster units that can engage the gunline, and accept the Basilisk's firepower as acceptable losses for a couple of turns while you slaughter their other stuff.

Tau would like to know when they are getting a CC option. Also get close, why so the dawn eagle dbag triplets can charge me no thanks.

Ice_can wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Cultiststeve wrote:
They are run as catachan for the reroll, which usually means they are getting 5+ shots a turn.

Ok, that's 5 shots per turn. 2.5 will hit, no more than 2.08 of that will wound, and then you probably get a save. So we'll be generous and call it two models per turn dead. How many turns is it going to take to kill 100 points worth of models? At least 3 turns if you're shooting at elite infantry, longer than an entire game if it's a horde of cannon fodder on the other side of the table. Most of the time the Basilisk's firepower just isn't all that impressive.

Especially if you are running a slower / gunline army that cannot tag them in melee combat, and get the second turn...

Stop trying to out-gunline an IG gunline. Of course you're going to lose when you do something that foolish. Take faster units that can engage the gunline, and accept the Basilisk's firepower as acceptable losses for a couple of turns while you slaughter their other stuff.

Tau would like to know when they are getting a CC option. Also get close, why so the dawn eagle dbag triplets can charge me no thanks.

Tau have the more annoying gunline tho. Markerlights give me PTSD. Additionally i still fear taucommanders.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Cultiststeve wrote:
I am curious what other peoples opinions are on the cost of an earthshaker basilisk.
For a little over 100 points, you get a powerful cannon you can hide behind a building and shoot all day. And its tough enough to require some sustained firepower to bring down.

In my local group, they seem super effective, even when only bringing 3. They are run as catachan for the reroll, which usually means they are getting 5+ shots a turn. How do people counter / deal with them? Is there some weak spot we are missing? Especially if you are running a slower / gunline army that cannot tag them in melee combat, and get the second turn...

Maybe?

Indirect fire is really strong, and generally undervalued, until you have too many to hide. However, I think the direct fire main battle tanks are all kind of overpriced, and if we brought down the price of Predators and such the heavy artillery guns would probably feel more appropriately priced. While IF is undervalued, it's not too far off from where I think it should be.

Like the IF artillery pieces are definitely underpriced compared to their direct fire main-line counterparts. A Leman Russ out of the box is almost 10 points more than a Manticore, for reasons I still don't understand. It's not like S9 lascannons cost more than S8 missile launchers. So should the Manticore be more expensive or the Russ be cheaper? Probably both, though at it's current cost the Manticore doesn't feel particularly egregious.

A BCLR is the most hilariously undercosted unit that everyone says is terrible.
A Battlecannon, LC 2HB LR out shoots a quad las predator against t7 3+
Outshoots a autocannon HB predator against infantry
Outshoos Hammerheads
The reason everything else looks bad in comparison because its rediculous undercosted.

Not Online!!! wrote:
That really depends on the gunline and your units. Granted if the IG player is smart he will bubblewrap his Basilisks and block the way for melee units with cheap guardsmen. If the player plays catachan might aswell bait you to come to him with the Basilisks and then charges you with the s4 dudes after shooting at you.
Ogryins are surprsingly good this time around.
Additionally Custodes are Custodes not IG. What you described Karol is the 08/15 IG Custard competitive list /gunline. Not a fun match in a hobby store.

Best bet would be fighterbomber models that have enough mmph to destroy one or two basilisks at once.
Or you stretch his line to get an oppurtunity for shocktroops with the right equipment at the right time.

yeah well I think that banking your own armies efficiency on an idea that your opponent will not take the best, and probablly will take the worse options, makes this whole thread a moot argument. If the IG player decides to take bad stuff, he is not going to be running those 2 basilisks. or he is running some fring list like a ton of mortars and multiple deathstars of ogryns, and now it is the IG player that is going for you. Although he still probablly runs custodes bikers.

Spoletta wrote:
We have to make a big distinction here. Are we talking about ITC or canon?

In canon 40K hiding a basilisk is really hard, you can hide one or maybe 2 and that's it. Even then, it is such a borderline LoS negation that when things start moving on the table you will get to shoot at some parts of it, at that point the fact that it is T6 11W starts being a big problem.

In ITC you have a lot of more freedom in how to put it out of LoS and they are bad news for your opponent.

In general i feel that all indirect fire weapons are not that good. Having the chance to indirect fire isn't such a good bonus, if i could take it as an upgrade i wouldn't pay it more than 8-10 points on a 100-150 point model.
They just happen to be the biggest winners in the ITC house ruling, and since many players play ITC you end up with the common opinion that indirect fire is undercosted.
The reality is that with standard rules, those models are failry costed.

That said, the basilisk is surely better than the manticore, since it has an additional point of AP, which is an absolute necessity to counteract the cover that you will ALWAYS grant to enemy non-infantry models when you shoot at them out of los (100% obscured by definition, they just need a toe in cover).

Cannon or vanilla 40K has such poor cover rules they may aswell not exsist, hence why most people are using ITC terrain or something similar otherwise 90% of GW terrain might aswell not be there.

Ice_can 760752 10073727 wrote:

Cannon or vanilla 40K has such poor cover rules they may aswell not exsist, hence why most people are using ITC terrain or something similar otherwise 90% of GW terrain might aswell not be there.

Unless it is the GW exclusive Styrofoam terrain Then the rules work.

Karol wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
That really depends on the gunline and your units. Granted if the IG player is smart he will bubblewrap his Basilisks and block the way for melee units with cheap guardsmen. If the player plays catachan might aswell bait you to come to him with the Basilisks and then charges you with the s4 dudes after shooting at you.
Ogryins are surprsingly good this time around.
Additionally Custodes are Custodes not IG. What you described Karol is the 08/15 IG Custard competitive list /gunline. Not a fun match in a hobby store.

Best bet would be fighterbomber models that have enough mmph to destroy one or two basilisks at once.
Or you stretch his line to get an oppurtunity for shocktroops with the right equipment at the right time.

yeah well I think that banking your own armies efficiency on an idea that your opponent will not take the best, and probablly will take the worse options, makes this whole thread a moot argument. If the IG player decides to take bad stuff, he is not going to be running those 2 basilisks. or he is running some fring list like a ton of mortars and multiple deathstars of ogryns, and now it is the IG player that is going for you. Although he still probablly runs custodes bikers.

Have you ever tried to get a match with just fun units? Fluff units? or non cancerous players?
Maybee then you would have more fun with your grey knights because from your other posts it is obvious to me that your whole FLGS is cancer incarnate. From the wanton destruction of models to modeling to advantage, etc.

Thanks for all the replies so far, glad to see the consensus is roughly similar to us and we are not missing anything major.

w1zard wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
If you feel Russes are too expensive, how do you view Predators?

-can't ignore moving/shooting heavy weapons
-can't fire their turrets twice
-less toughness, fewer wounds
-can't take orders

The only advantage being a 3+ basic ballistic skill. It's really tough to balance Space Marine tanks vs. IG tanks.

-IG tanks can't ignore moving and shooting heavy weapons either unless they are Tallarn. If they move more then half their distance they lose half of their damage output. So they can move a max of 5" and still get -1 on all of their other non turret weapons.
-IG tanks firing twice on their turn is the only reason why their damage output is anywhere near acceptable.
-You are correct on your third point.
-A LRBT can only be ordered by a ~200 point tank commander, so that is kind of an apples to oranges comparison.

I agree with you that a predator doesn't stack up with a LRBT. But, all the predator really needs is to get access to chapter tactics and maybe a ~10 point price reduction. I have no idea why space marine vehicles don't get chapter tactics, it is utterly stupid and I think a big misstep on GW's part.

The LRBT is pretty balanced though if you compare it with other vehicles from other codices.

My main issue with Predator vs Leman Russ is that the Predator is usually stuck where you deployed it. They should be more mobile than a LR, and they aren't. Just feels wrong.

Ice_can wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
We have to make a big distinction here. Are we talking about ITC or canon?

In canon 40K hiding a basilisk is really hard, you can hide one or maybe 2 and that's it. Even then, it is such a borderline LoS negation that when things start moving on the table you will get to shoot at some parts of it, at that point the fact that it is T6 11W starts being a big problem.

In ITC you have a lot of more freedom in how to put it out of LoS and they are bad news for your opponent.

In general i feel that all indirect fire weapons are not that good. Having the chance to indirect fire isn't such a good bonus, if i could take it as an upgrade i wouldn't pay it more than 8-10 points on a 100-150 point model.
They just happen to be the biggest winners in the ITC house ruling, and since many players play ITC you end up with the common opinion that indirect fire is undercosted.
The reality is that with standard rules, those models are failry costed.

That said, the basilisk is surely better than the manticore, since it has an additional point of AP, which is an absolute necessity to counteract the cover that you will ALWAYS grant to enemy non-infantry models when you shoot at them out of los (100% obscured by definition, they just need a toe in cover).

Cannon or vanilla 40K has such poor cover rules they may aswell not exsist, hence why most people are using ITC terrain or something similar otherwise 90% of GW terrain might aswell not be there.

I get a lot out of cover in all my games of canon 40K, my carnefici wouldn't last as much as they do without it. That said, 90% of the players i talked too didn't know how cover works correctly and were under the assumption that you need your vehicle to somehow be wholly withing a terrain element and be 50% obscured by that element alone, so obviously they never get to claim it.

In any case, you cannot say "This model is undercosted" when you are playing with modded rules that drastically improve that model without altering it's cost. Basilisk are 100% fair in 40K, the problem is only with ITC, it's not a GW problem so you can't expect it to get fixed in a CA or something like that.

Now that DKK can have them I love them, they always should have been available, I mean they are a trench warfare and war or contrition army.

Can say lots about how you can't directly compare costed units across different armies because the context of the rest of the army makes them quite different buuuttt...

On this it is fairly straight forward. They get D6 shots a turn. If they are hidden that means it is unlikely they are using the heavy bolter so that is vs toughness 5-8 and on average that is...
Normal basilisk - 1.49 wounding hits
Catachan Bassie - 1.65 wounding hits
Cadian Bassie - 1.74 wounding hits
At -3 and doing D3 damage...

I can't see how they would be dominating - but hidden fire you have problems killing will definitively annoy you over the game...

Comparing guard to marines and saying they're overcosted is kind of unfair, considering marines are absolute garbage and brutally overcosted.

Relative to the other top-tier stuff, IG are balanced. But, only if you restrict that lens to view top-tier armies.

And people telling you leman russ tanks are bad need to get a clue.

Russ tanks are fantastic. For a number of reasons.