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Hey all!

So I usually try to avoid tailoring lists. I play a lot of different armies (marines, guard, orks, DE, eldar, and tau). With most of my armies, I have no trouble building TAC lists that can give a pretty solid fight against most foes. However, with my marines, I am really having a hard time playing against one of my most frequent opponents who happens to play Tyrannids. He plays pretty strong lists, and in the current meta, marines are rather hard to play competitively with in general, so I don't really feel bad trying to build a list specifically to fight him. If anyone is game and wishes to indulge me, I'd like to start a discussion on marine tactics vs Tyrannids. General strategy is appreciated, but I will also be laying out what I have available in my toolbox, and what builds my opponent frequently employs.

My opponent usually uses a core of numerous hidden hive guard for ranged support (hard for marines to deal with in my experience), potentially an exocrine or tyrannofex, a shooty flyrant, maybe a melee tyrant or swarmlord, a big blob of genestealers, venomthropes scattered about for -1 to hit, and some psychic support with neurothropes. Sometimes there's teams of carnifexes thrown in.

My biggest problem is dealing with the threat saturation. I can't ignore the the blobs of genestealers that come in for a turn 2 charge (I've had them hit me turn one before with short deployment and a swarmlord), but while I'm trying to handle the genestealers, I'm also losing ranged assets to the many strength 8 shots from the hive guard. The other problem is the combo of -1 to hit and invul saves on the stealers and neurothropes (potentially with a 5+ fnp from psychic powers). The ap values on my weapons become meaningless against these targets.

I'm thinking of trying a screen of guardsmen (like 50), with a shooting platform in the form of a leviathan dread with stormcannon and grav, a repulsor, a storm talon with assault cannons and lascannons, venerable las missile dread, a trio of razorbacks (2 las and one assualt cannon) and some aggressors riding in the repulsor. Supporting the razorbacks and leviathan I'll have chapter master with jump pack, storm shield and thunderhammer. That leaves me about a hundred points to spare at 2000.

My available units are as follows:

Large mix of guard infantry and tanks (trying not to use too many of them, because I want it to be a primarily marine force)
celestine
Some intercessors, hellblasters and aggressors
repulsor
redemptor dread (gatling)
stormtalon
x2 las preds
x3 razorbacks (assault cannon and two Las)
leviathan dread
plenty of tactical and devestator marines
vanguard vets
assault and tac termies
sternguard
bikes
whirlwind
las and missile dread
rifleman dread

Any thoughts on this particular match up, or fighting tyrannids in general are appreciated!

Thanks!

rooster92 wrote:
Hey all!

So I usually try to avoid tailoring lists. I play a lot of different armies (marines, guard, orks, DE, eldar, and tau). With most of my armies, I have no trouble building TAC lists that can give a pretty solid fight against most foes. However, with my marines, I am really having a hard time playing against one of my most frequent opponents who happens to play Tyrannids. He plays pretty strong lists, and in the current meta, marines are rather hard to play competitively with in general, so I don't really feel bad trying to build a list specifically to fight him. If anyone is game and wishes to indulge me, I'd like to start a discussion on marine tactics vs Tyrannids. General strategy is appreciated, but I will also be laying out what I have available in my toolbox, and what builds my opponent frequently employs.

My opponent usually uses a core of numerous hidden hive guard for ranged support (hard for marines to deal with in my experience), potentially an exocrine or tyrannofex, a shooty flyrant, maybe a melee tyrant or swarmlord, a big blob of genestealers, venomthropes scattered about for -1 to hit, and some psychic support with neurothropes. Sometimes there's teams of carnifexes thrown in.

My biggest problem is dealing with the threat saturation. I can't ignore the the blobs of genestealers that come in for a turn 2 charge (I've had them hit me turn one before with short deployment and a swarmlord), but while I'm trying to handle the genestealers, I'm also losing ranged assets to the many strength 8 shots from the hive guard. The other problem is the combo of -1 to hit and invul saves on the stealers and neurothropes (potentially with a 5+ fnp from psychic powers). The ap values on my weapons become meaningless against these targets.

I'm thinking of trying a screen of guardsmen (like 50), with a shooting platform in the form of a leviathan dread with stormcannon and grav, a repulsor, a storm talon with assault cannons and lascannons, venerable las missile dread, a trio of razorbacks (2 las and one assualt cannon) and some aggressors riding in the repulsor. Supporting the razorbacks and leviathan I'll have chapter master with jump pack, storm shield and thunderhammer. That leaves me about a hundred points to spare at 2000.

My available units are as follows:

Large mix of guard infantry and tanks (trying not to use too many of them, because I want it to be a primarily marine force)
celestine
Some intercessors, hellblasters and aggressors
repulsor
redemptor dread (gatling)
stormtalon
x2 las preds
x3 razorbacks (assault cannon and two Las)
leviathan dread
plenty of tactical and devestator marines
vanguard vets
assault and tac termies
sternguard
bikes
whirlwind
las and missile dread
rifleman dread

Any thoughts on this particular match up, or fighting tyrannids in general are appreciated!

Thanks!

I have run my three 5 man Devastator Squads with 3x Missile Launchers and a Cherub against the Nids player here and with them camping next to a Captain, Lt, and Company Ancient... they shred bugs quite nicely. Some Rhinos with 2 Storm Bolters acting as your first line of defense against the bugs also works nicely, just keep the Rhinos empty. Sure, Genestealers will still tear them up, but it is better than them hitting your Twin Assault Cannon Razorback and Dev gunline, and the Rhinos will keep the 'gaunts tied up pretty well. The Rhinos can also force shots from his Hive Guard to go into them versus better targets, to try and clear charge lanes for his mass of guys.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, what Chapter are you running?

The best solution to stealers are aggressors, just 3 of them will kill 12 genestealers (without rerolls) and then you can use those aggressors to assault carnefici and meelerants for decent results.

Problem then becomes how not having them killed by hive guards.

In general your opponent is playing a list with little volume of fire, mostly the shootrant, so screening with guards will probably stop his stealers.
He doesn't also have much in the way of backline melee threaths, so if you can deepstrike one or 2 squads behind his lines, you can stop a good part of his ranged fire.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A thunderfire cannon is also a good investment in case that he doesn't go first, just shoot the stealers, halve the movement stat and now they are useless. Even if you don't go first, it's a good way to threathen those hive guards.

Another thing you can try, without souping in guards, is deploying 2 stalkers in front of your lines. They are a reall though target for him, while being relatively cheap, and can do a lot of damage to flyrants.(5 damage per turn without rerolls). 20 stealers charging it do not take it down.

1) Bring scouts. I would say bring at least 25. Keep them cheap, only buy a sword for the nob. Give them bolters or CCW, it doesn't matter what. They are not there to kill, they are there to die, act as speedbumps, grab objectives, and screen against deepstriking. They are the best unit marines have access to, every competitive list fields them. Never give them cloaks or sniper rifles.

2) I like devastators with plasma cannons, agressors are ok, intercessors are ok. Scout bikes are also good. Space marines in general are not strong.

If there are that many Genestealers, Aggressors throw out enough bullets to make them fail their saves.

Otherwise the tip about the Scouts is correct, but ignore the Bolter loadout. Go with either Shotguns or CCW.

Thanks for the replies.


@NH Gunsmith

Interesting thought on the rhinos, I'd never really thought about using rhinos as screens rather than cheap troops. I'm thinking I'll end up running raven guard to give my couple dreads the -1 to hit. Most of the marine support I'm currently bringing is vehicle based, so chapter tactics wont be a huge factor, unless I change things up. I have some missile launcher marines, but most my devs are lascannons. In the case of lascannons i usually personally prefer vehciles as delivery systems. Although with the FAQ ruling on no charges against units on upper floors of buildings where models can't fit, I could have some luck with las devs on roofs in my deployment zone.

@Spoletta

I've had my aggressors do some decent work on his infantry in the past. In the repulsor, they should be relatively safe until I'm ready to roll em out. I've considered purchasing more aggressors to bring em to a full squad (only have 3 right now). Only downside to repulsor aggressors is missing out on the double tapping for sitting still, but all the fragstorm launchers on the repulsor tend to make up for it.

I've thought about a thunderfire cannon solely for the stratagem. That could be crippling to melee horde. I just haven't been able to bite the bullet, because half the cost goes into the darn techmarine gunner, rather than the actual weapon. At a lower cost, I'd be into it, but its damage output amounts to just a couple heavy bolters in the end.

Stalkers are neat models, but I'm not currently looking into any new medium tank purchases.

On the topic of deepstriking his backlines, do you think deepstriking inceptors would be worth their cost to employ against the hive guard?

@Pismakron

I have 15 scouts currently; 5 sniper, 5 shotgun and 5 bolter. If the scouts are just there to die and be speedbumps, what advantage do they give me over a more numerous screen of guardsmen (besides faction purity, which I'll admit, I consider a plus).

rooster92 wrote:

@Spoletta

I've had my aggressors do some decent work on his infantry in the past. In the repulsor, they should be relatively safe until I'm ready to roll em out. I've considered purchasing more aggressors to bring em to a full squad (only have 3 right now). Only downside to repulsor aggressors is missing out on the double tapping for sitting still, but all the fragstorm launchers on the repulsor tend to make up for it.

Getting out of a repulsor does not actually count as movement. Getting out a squad of 5 3" away does not count. It's hilarious to see 20d6 flamer hits on a horde. Take a lieutenant for extra funsies.



Marines will usually struggle against competitive nids. Like people have mentioned, dev castles, Razorbacks, and aggressors tend to perform well. Try out some things and see how it goes

I wish getting out of a transport didn't count as moving, that'd be awesome. Sadly, after your comment I double checked, and page 183 of BRB says "Note though, that even if you don't move disembarking units further in your movement phase, they still count as having moved for any rules purposes, such as shooting heavy weapons."

Aggressors are incredibly good against Nids, everything threatening except Hive Guard pretty much has to come within their range, and you will outvalue everything they have there. Just be careful in positioning and don't let them get tied up in CC, and try to take something else to deal with Hive Guard if you can. So my advice "Get aggressors". If built right, this should be on of SM's better match ups.

@shuppet
Right now I just have 3 aggressors in a repulsor. Do you think 5 aggressors in a repulsor would be enough, or should I look into getting more than that? I have a game vs nids tomorrow, and will report back to you guys with the result. I am debuting my leviathan dreadnought for the very first time, and I'm hoping he provides some anti infantry punch and survivability.



I am hoping the guard screen will tie things up long enough for me to get two good turns of shooting, which should be enough for me to cripple any close to mid range threats. At that point, hive guard and other support assets will still be hanging around, but with no frontline fighters left to them, I should be able to win on objectives and attrition. The multiple infantry squads and their commanders will also give me a deployment advantage I think. That's seven drops that will be deployed in a straight line like a fence and meanwhile my opponent will have to show his hand some, so I can deploy my ranged assets to counter the appropriate targets.

The guard screen is sad to me in that I'd love to run a pure marine list, but point for point, I think that guardsmen with rank fire orders out shoot scouts and provide similar durability. (die on first contact). At least a screen of guard holds up fluff wise. Most 40k novels I've read have lines of guardsmen holding the front while the marines hit hard targets. I'll be happy as a clam if Chapter Approved amends basic marine infantry points, but that's a whole other can of worms that has been discussed up and down already on this site.

rooster92 wrote:

@Pismakron

I have 15 scouts currently; 5 sniper, 5 shotgun and 5 bolter. If the scouts are just there to die and be speedbumps, what advantage do they give me over a more numerous screen of guardsmen (besides faction purity, which I'll admit, I consider a plus).

You can deploy scouts on forward objectives, or on the top level of midfield ruins making them pretty hard to assault.

Guardsmen are a good screening unit when buffed by orders, but they will start the game in your own deployment zone, not standing on objectives.

Reporting back on my game today.

Solid victory for the marines. However, it didn't really test out countering the flyrant or hive guard, as my opponent wanted to mix things up and went for an all melee list.

He used a 6 man group of zoanthropes, 6 venomthropes, 6 tyrant guard, a swarmlord, 40 gene stealers, 20 hormogaunts, a death leaper, 2 lictors, and a brood lord. List wasn't optimized, but he had recently done a bunch of work doing resin recasts to make the tyrant guards and lictors, so I think he just wanted to give them a spin.

I had 50 basic guardsmen with 2 commanders, ven dread with missile las, reuplsor with aggressors inside, leviathan dread, 3 razorbacks (2 las, one assault cannons), a squad of carbine reivers and grav chutes (deployed mid game on top of a building), and a chapter master with shield eternal, jump pack and thunder hammer.

We played tactical escalation maelstrom.

I got first turn, which always helps, but most of my shooting was midranged, so i just threw some lascannons into the tyrant guard and killed 3 of them and killed some gaunts with the repulsor. On his turn one he nuked my stormtalon with ELEVEN mortal wounds off the zoanthropes. I forgot that they can smite out to 24 inches, so my talon was placed pretty disadvantageously. Then he moved forward with everything, using his army trait to get great advance rolls and pop off some turn one charges with the genestealers. One genestealer group charged with the guants to do 8 wounds on my repulsor, which i didn't expect. The overwatch nuked the guants though.

Next few turns saw my line of guard getting beat up and falling back to allow shooting into the horde. Took out one of the stealer groups with massed shooting (they are reslient when they have the FNP psychic power.) Whiffed 7 lascannon shots with rerolls to hit at the broodlord, which stung. Defining moment was my chapter master jumpacking over the lines to multi charge the broodlord and swarmlord who were right next to each other. I used honor the chapter to fight twice and he delivered quite the beatdown, He slew the broodlord and brought the swarmlord to one wound (3 wounds were diverted onto the last remaining tyrant guard). After that it was just mopping up.

Good game overall. First couple turns it felt like it could go either way, so it was fun!

The hell kind of drugs was your chapter master on, ive played nids almost the entirety of 8th and never seen any marine (even kharn and typhus) do that much damage in a combat xD

As a nid player my suggestions are
Flyers - hate them, if an opponent throws points into flyers I make sure I table their other stuff because I know im not taking out the flyers
Missile launchers - dual firing options makes them decent at big stuff and great against. The wienies.
Youre normally not going to outpunch a tyranid so lots and lots of bullets with solid screens.
Id consider running a full battalion of ig honestly, 3+ infantry screens have 3 heavy teams hidden with a commander (mortars) to harass the small stuff or threaten his hive guard, theyre bolters with better range then the hive. Go cadia for your regiment and then you can order to reroll wounds on one and auto reroll hits on 1. The Cp farm doesn't hurt any either Lol


A big thing for me is people who are good at denying my first turn charges. Even a screen in range just gets me closer to the goodies deploy as far back as possible. Consider heavy bolters if his running a lot of troops or even a double heavy flamer landspeeder or two to harry him.

rooster92 wrote:
he had recently done a bunch of work doing resin recasts to make the tyrant guards and lictors, so I think he just wanted to give them a spin.

Just a heads up, I'd keep stuff like this on the DL, or your thread will immediately become about the validity of recasts. It's incredibility moronic, but a lot of people are incapable of viewing something that doesn't match their price point into the hobby as anything other than a personal attack on their own purchases.

rooster92 wrote:

Good game overall. First couple turns it felt like it could go either way, so it was fun!

Sounds like it could have! Looks like there wasn't many target for them Lascannons that match. Careful with bird next time and be mindful of Kraken Zope's threat range. Give your chapter master some honor tags!

rooster92 wrote:
On his turn one he nuked my stormtalon with ELEVEN mortal wounds off the zoanthropes. I forgot that they can smite out to 24 inches, so my talon was placed pretty disadvantageously.

Just wondering, how do you get 11 mortal wounds from a zoanthrope units smite in a single turn?

They get a bonus 3 mortal wounds when a full unit of 6 is casting smite. But even if they roll an 11+ on the test so they get D6 + 3, the best they could do is 9.

I suppose they could cast Psychic Scream afterwards for an extra D3, but that's only at range 18".

pismakron wrote:

rooster92 wrote:

@Pismakron

I have 15 scouts currently; 5 sniper, 5 shotgun and 5 bolter. If the scouts are just there to die and be speedbumps, what advantage do they give me over a more numerous screen of guardsmen (besides faction purity, which I'll admit, I consider a plus).

You can deploy scouts on forward objectives, or on the top level of midfield ruins making them pretty hard to assault.

Guardsmen are a good screening unit when buffed by orders, but they will start the game in your own deployment zone, not standing on objectives.

Scouts can also be used to push the screen outside your deployment zone. Because you can’t DS within 9” you can just put a string of them midfield to keep things from dropping in your face. Less relevent with turn 1 DS being less of a thing, but still a viable option for establishing board control outside your DZ. this can also be used to secure LZs for your deep strikers.

 Nevelon wrote:

pismakron wrote:

rooster92 wrote:

@Pismakron

I have 15 scouts currently; 5 sniper, 5 shotgun and 5 bolter. If the scouts are just there to die and be speedbumps, what advantage do they give me over a more numerous screen of guardsmen (besides faction purity, which I'll admit, I consider a plus).

You can deploy scouts on forward objectives, or on the top level of midfield ruins making them pretty hard to assault.

Guardsmen are a good screening unit when buffed by orders, but they will start the game in your own deployment zone, not standing on objectives.

Scouts can also be used to push the screen outside your deployment zone. Because you can’t DS within 9” you can just put a string of them midfield to keep things from dropping in your face. Less relevent with turn 1 DS being less of a thing, but still a viable option for establishing board control outside your DZ. this can also be used to secure LZs for your deep strikers.

Hormagaunts punish that type of play, you risk having your entire army engaged in melee before you even play a turn.

Spoletta wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

pismakron wrote:

rooster92 wrote:

@Pismakron

I have 15 scouts currently; 5 sniper, 5 shotgun and 5 bolter. If the scouts are just there to die and be speedbumps, what advantage do they give me over a more numerous screen of guardsmen (besides faction purity, which I'll admit, I consider a plus).

You can deploy scouts on forward objectives, or on the top level of midfield ruins making them pretty hard to assault.

Guardsmen are a good screening unit when buffed by orders, but they will start the game in your own deployment zone, not standing on objectives.

Scouts can also be used to push the screen outside your deployment zone. Because you can’t DS within 9” you can just put a string of them midfield to keep things from dropping in your face. Less relevent with turn 1 DS being less of a thing, but still a viable option for establishing board control outside your DZ. this can also be used to secure LZs for your deep strikers.

Hormagaunts punish that type of play, you risk having your entire army engaged in melee before you even play a turn.

Keep 10" between each layer of screen might be able to avoid that I think? But that is lots of points in the screen, and scouts are actually not cheap to "throw away" in tons.

@arson fire

sorry misreported. I wrote that late in the evening, after a drink. There was other psychic support available. The thropes did their full 6 mortal wounds, and his HQs piled on with additional smites/physcic screams.