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I have heard the buzzing on the internet about the Hammerhead being superior to the Leman Russ. At the same time, I have heard more people complaining about the Leman Russ performing better in casual games. I guess the Guards are more popular (and arguably more powerful as a faction) leads to more complaints.

So which one do you think is stronger?

Death battles: Armed with best weapons for the match up. 48x48 table. Random deployment. Both turns happen simultaneously. FW weapons allowed. Ignore all buffs. No Tank Commander, Pask or Longstrike.

Against each other.

Against a Tyrannofex.

Against a squad of 10 Plague Marines.

Against a squad of 30 Ork Boyz.

Other qualities.

Go do those death battles and then let us know what you find.

http://www.dice-hammer.com/ is your friend here.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
http://www.dice-hammer.com/ is your friend here.

Okay. Wait for me to do the math.

I don't see how a Hammerhead would stack up at all against a Leman Russ, even less so with auxiliary effects.

Well, Hammerhead has fly, and that's about it.

Otherwise, as I understand it's functionally identical, except instead of doubled firepower for sitting still it gets to fall back from melee and shoot.

The Railgun is better than the Vanquisher, but that's not really a useful comparison, since gak, compared to gak, is still gak.

Hammerheads have pretty high variance do to not having a trait to reroll their d6 ion cannon shots.

Against each other.

Hammerhead with Ion cannon, 2 Seeker Missiles and 2 Smart Missile Systems vs Leman Russ with Battle Cannon, Lascannon, 2 Multi-meltas and HK Missile.

Could someone rate for me (can't seem to get the DiceHammer to work as expected):

Two Hammerheads w/ Rail Rifle and x2 SMS (168 each) vs. Two Leman Russ w/ Battlecannon and hull Lascannon (164 each).

Also, folks opinions about the most effective x2 unit against the Railheads at the same point max (168 or less each).

bibotot wrote:
Against each other.

Hammerhead with Ion cannon, 2 Seeker Missiles and 2 Smart Missile Systems vs Leman Russ with Battle Cannon, Lascannon, 2 Multi-meltas and HK Missile.

You have to be joking right? Sponson multi-meltas are garbage, only 2 shots within 24" that are subject to heavy weapon penalty.

A more serious loadout is no sponsons and a hull mounted lascannon.

 Stormonu wrote:
Could someone rate for me (can't seem to get the DiceHammer to work as expected):

Two Hammerheads w/ Rail Rifle and x2 SMS (168 each) vs. Two Leman Russ w/ Battlecannon and hull Lascannon (164 each).

Also, folks opinions about the most effective x2 unit against the Railheads at the same point max (168 or less each).

Both units hold their ground. SMS not in range. Hammerhead does 1.56 damage (7.69 turns to kill the Leman Russ). Leman Russ does 1.56 damage with Battlecannon and 0.97 damage with Lascannon for 2.53 in total (5.14 turns to kill the Hammerhead).

Hammerhead moves forward 1 turn to have the SMS in range. Turn 1, Hammerhead does 1.17 damage with Railgun and 0.56 damage with SMS for a total of 1.73. Turn 2 onward, the Hammerhead does 1.56 damage with Railgun and 0.74 damage with SMS for 2.3 damage in total. Both of these results are lower than the 2.53 damage the Leman Russ will put out per turn.

Than plasma scions drop and one shot both tanks.

Well, 129pts will buy you a tempestor and a plasma command squad. And they'll do 5.14 damage. Doesn't sounds quite as bad as you're making out.

You need to make sure you're points equivalent, too.

And not making the Russ a commander, but spending those points on garbage sponsons? Ehhhh

I've played tank battles against hammerheads and the Tau gak on me. Granted I think my buddy had above average rolls. Longstrike, markerlights, and their Stratagems were straight crushing me with mortal wounds.

Given normal rolls though, it's a murder fest since the hammerhead chassis is exactly what the battle cannon excels at crushing. Meanwhile the railgun wounds Russes on 3s and doesn't allow saves. It probably all comes down to who goes first and how the random # of battle cannon shots goes.

 Stormonu wrote:
Could someone rate for me (can't seem to get the DiceHammer to work as expected):

Two Hammerheads w/ Rail Rifle and x2 SMS (168 each) vs. Two Leman Russ w/ Battlecannon and hull Lascannon (164 each).

Also, folks opinions about the most effective x2 unit against the Railheads at the same point max (168 or less each).

Railguns are pretty awful in this edition. The ion cannon loadout (ion, sms, 2 seekers) is the preferred way to run Hammerheads and/or Longstrike in competitive games right now.

edit: though I'll admit seekers are somewhat of a "can I find the points" thing. They're usually taken, but not always. Whereas the ion cannon and SMS thing is pretty much always taken.

Ionheads are brutal and dirty, especially if you double them up with Longstrike to support them. Anything weaker than a Leman Russ will just melt, and Leman Russes will take a beating. If Land Raiders were actually used they'd be hard to shift, but you've a better chance of running into someone using Flash Gitz than a Land Raider.

Ionhead, the prime hammerhead loadout, is generally inferior even to predators.

Tau vehicles are bad for a long time now, nothing new in 8th.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Ionhead, the prime hammerhead loadout, is generally inferior even to predators.

Tau vehicles are bad for a long time now, nothing new in 8th.

I agree that the other vehicles are subpar, but it's pretty much exactly the opposite with Ionheads. Longstrike with 3 Ionheads is very competitive, and you can find it in many tournament lists. The amazing BS makes them consistent and allows to perform well against -1 to hit armies, the fixed 3 damages is a significant boost, and 2 seeker missiles on each tank allow you to frontload a huge amount of damage. The smart missiles are an added bonus that allow to clean up infantry and things hidden out of LOS and in cover. It's a really strong tank.

Ushtarador wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Ionhead, the prime hammerhead loadout, is generally inferior even to predators.

Tau vehicles are bad for a long time now, nothing new in 8th.

I agree that the other vehicles are subpar, but it's pretty much exactly the opposite with Ionheads. Longstrike with 3 Ionheads is very competitive, and you can find it in many tournament lists. The amazing BS makes them consistent and allows to perform well against -1 to hit armies, the fixed 3 damages is a significant boost, and 2 seeker missiles on each tank allow you to frontload a huge amount of damage. The smart missiles are an added bonus that allow to clean up infantry and things hidden out of LOS and in cover. It's a really strong tank.

Ionheads buffed by longstrike are good delete longstrike and the remaining 3 ionheads are a lot less scary.

Yup.
The ionheads are only good while longstrike (who is good by himself) is around
However, longstrike isn't any harder to delete than a regular hammerhead, and has a huge target painted at him being both a decent shot and a good buffer..
And unlike suits or small characters, there is not a single way to defend him

Hammerheads are anti-infantry gun boats, even elite infantry. But vs t8, either having 1 shot with random damage, or a few shots with 5+ to wound by default, with no tactic to reroll to wounds with either, vs t8 1 more wound, the ability to move some and shoot 2ce with no - to hit with the turret weapon, and the potential for orders/cadian/etc to reroll to wounds, or to always act as 1 bracket better etc it would be a blue-blood bath.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Yup.
The ionheads are only good while longstrike (who is good by himself) is around
However, longstrike isn't any harder to delete than a regular hammerhead, and has a huge target painted at him being both a decent shot and a good buffer..
And unlike suits or small characters, there is not a single way to defend him

Every tournament game I ever played had enough cover to hide a single hammerhead, worst case I had to block some part of Longstrike with another hammerhead. He only needs to survive one round to unload all the seeker missiles and cripple the opponents heavy armor. Also, hammerheads with longstrike still hit on 3+, which is significantly better than 4+.