Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

6" HI for characters could be fun. The main part a poor man's version of Red Thirst? Or a good ability? Thoughts?

Considering power fists and thunder hammers are pretty much the best melee options marines have that tactic is straight up better than the Red Thirst, plus characters get an additional benefit from it.

Think of the exploding 6 potential with a “death to the traitors” type stratagem, etc.

So if my Grey Hunters have a Wolf Lord nearby and they get the charge, they hit on 2s and re-roll 1s.

Bremon wrote:
Considering power fists and thunder hammers are pretty much the best melee options marines have that tactic is straight up better than the Red Thirst, plus characters get an additional benefit from it.

Think of the exploding 6 potential with a “death to the traitors” type stratagem, etc.

Powerfists are marginally more useful, but still way overcosted. With access to frost swords and wolf claws, I doubt we will see powerfists used, even with the change.

So it’s crystal clear that it’s a better Chapter Tactic than Red Thirst because Wolves have better melee weapons than what other chapters have access to lol. Good to know.

Overall, I would put this on par with Red Thirst. +1 to Wound can be very handy with you already have plenty of attacks and are assaulting something with high T.
+1 to hit is good too, but it really shines for particular weapons.
Also keep in mind that there are generally more To-Hit rerolls already, and with how rerolls come before modifiers, there could be a situation in which you don't get the reroll because it hits before mods, then once the mods happen, you could fail to hit.

A rare situation, for sure, but enough to merit giving characters and extra boost. Especially fitting to Wolves as their characters are always ready for glory.

-

Why can't GW just be succinct with their rules instead of waffling on?

Must admit, the Tooth and Claw release looks very nice.

While unlikely to replace the BA smash captain in the meta, depending on any new SW strategems, relics etc, a wolf Lord likely on a thunderwolf seems nasty with a 6" heroic intervention range.

 Galef wrote:
Overall, I would put this on par with Red Thirst. +1 to Wound can be very handy with you already have plenty of attacks and are assaulting something with high T.
+1 to hit is good too, but it really shines for particular weapons.
Also keep in mind that there are generally more To-Hit rerolls already, and with how rerolls come before modifiers, there could be a situation in which you don't get the reroll because it hits before mods, then once the mods happen, you could fail to hit.

A rare situation, for sure, but enough to merit giving characters and extra boost. Especially fitting to Wolves as their characters are always ready for glory.

-

+1 to hit and +1 to wound are basically identical. The difference comes in all the times a hammer will already be wounding on 2s, potential access to exploding hits with 6s, and the fact that wolves have special weapons with +1 strength that against MEQ mean you’re wounding the same as the BA would. I’m extremely curious to see points costs in this codex as well as Stratagems. A few decent stratagems will make this codex well worth the wait for Wolves players.

They are quite different, no way to do a direct comparison.

The red thirst encourages an high number of low/mid str attacks, something that complements well BA.

This one encourages heavy weapons like powerfists.

In general we can assume that wolves are being geared more towards herohammer, where BA are geared to make use of those fast infantries.

Bremon wrote:
+1 to hit and +1 to wound are basically identical.

Statistically, sure, but situationally one can be quite different from the other.
With melee to-hits, we are usually talking about 2s, 3s, maybe 4s. Often with some kind of reroll. So already good odds
Wounding, however, can often be 4s or 5s with no reroll of any kind and are often affected by the target's T, unlike to-hit rolls that are rarely affected by the target in melee.

+1 to wound can make a tough situation easier. +1 to hit usually just makes an already easy situation easier. Both have merits
Wolves having better melee weapons certainly swings this a bit, but I still hold that, when used to their full potential, both traits are equally good.
I commend GW for this.

Also, some BA units also have Black Rage, which adds to Red Thirst in a way.

-

Spoletta wrote:
They are quite different, no way to do a direct comparison.

The red thirst encourages an high number of low/mid str attacks, something that complements well BA.

This one encourages heavy weapons like powerfists.

In general we can assume that wolves are being geared more towards herohammer, where BA are geared to make use of those fast infantries.

yeah, smash captain, assault terminators and sanguinary Guard, hammer death company, etc. are really geared towards high number of low attacks. Is that your meta or just your head canon? The only high volume of attacks units are chain sword vanguard veterans and chainsword death company.

 Galef wrote:

Bremon wrote:
+1 to hit and +1 to wound are basically identical.

Statistically, sure, but situationally one can be quite different from the other.
With melee to-hits, we are usually talking about 2s, 3s, maybe 4s. Often with some kind of reroll. So already good odds
Wounding, however, can often be 4s or 5s with no reroll of any kind and are often affected by the target's T, unlike to-hit rolls that are rarely affected by the target in melee.

+1 to wound can make a tough situation easier. +1 to hit usually just makes an already easy situation easier. Both have merits
Wolves having better melee weapons certainly swings this a bit, but I still hold that, when used to their full potential, both traits are equally good.
I commend GW for this.

Also, some BA units also have Black Rage, which adds to Red Thirst in a way.

-

Statistically and situationally are the same except for in your mind where you are feeling a placebo about hitting on 4s and wounding on 4s vs hitting on 3s and wounding on 5s. I’m not sure if you’re aware but wound rerolls are a cheaper buff than hits when comparing captains to lieutenants, and chaplain rerolls mean 3s on fists for most units are dead rolls anyway.

When used to their full potential +1 to Hit is objectively better.

Black Rage is one infantry unit, one dreadnought that no one uses (while Wolves get their own special dread who’s more versatile), a special character, or you can spend CP on a character.

I won’t argue this anymore, because people are using their feelings for the basis of rebuttals rather than facts, but I think we can agree that SW players should be extremely happy about their Tactic (which even has a secondary benefit of 6” intervention for that extra middle finger to BA and BT players)

I think I might actually make a small force of marines that are wolf successors with the stupid werewolf and space viking thing pretty much excised. An occasional pelt and maybe a rune here or there as a tribute to their past origin, but that's it. Back when Dark Imperium came out I snagged a bunch of Primaris off ebay for next to nothing and have been waiting for something I actually want to do with them. Was hoping Death Watch would have done it for me, but it didn't.

Bremon wrote:
I won’t argue this anymore, because people are using their feelings for the basis of rebuttals rather than facts, but I think we can agree that SW players should be extremely happy about their Tactic (which even has a secondary benefit of 6” intervention for that extra middle finger to BA and BT players)

Using actual experience, not "feelings". Math can only take you so far. But sure, we can stop arguing and agree that Wolves should be in a good place with this rule.
Points costs, Strats, etc will still determine how good Wolves become in the meta.

-

The two are not statistically identical.

Let's take a simple case, you hit on 3 and wound on 5 (attacking a DG?)

No tactics, you land 0.222 wounds per attack.
Red thirst gives 0.333 wounds per attack.
Hunters unleashed gives 0.277 wounds per attack.

The two are only statistically identical when outside factors are identical and the needed result is identical.

HOWEVER, when its not, buffing your worse roll is superior.
And for marines it's often the wounds with ws3, and chars usually got ws2, rending the hunters almost moot.


I'd rank red thirst as a bit better than hunters, but sutuatinally so (fists and hammers are as stated the main benefactors of hunters over thirst, so the intervention bonus (especially as characters most rarely enjoy the ws boost) is a good addition.

Nice clean way to get two similar, yet different tactics.

 BoomWolf wrote:
The two are not statistically identical.

Let's take a simple case, you hit on 3 and wound on 5 (attacking a DG?)

No tactics, you land 0.222 wounds per attack.
Red thirst gives 0.333 wounds per attack.
Hunters unleashed gives 0.277 wounds per attack.

The two are only statistically identical when outside factors are identical and the needed result is identical.

HOWEVER, when its not, buffing your worse roll is superior.
And for marines it's often the wounds with ws3, and chars usually got ws2, rending the hunters almost moot.


I'd rank red thirst as a bit better than hunters, but sutuatinally so (fists and hammers are as stated the main benefactors of hunters over thirst, so the intervention bonus (especially as characters most rarely enjoy the ws boost) is a good addition.

Nice clean way to get two similar, yet different tactics.

Thanx for the math on that. I had it that way in my head, but you really help my point showing that.

-

I might be tooooooo greedy, but if there is something (like Stratagem, or psychic) that allows any unit benefit the Chapter Tactic and close to the one being charged to perform Heroic Intervention, it would be stunning.

You mess with one wolf? You mess a whole pack!!! (extracted from the paragraph in Warhammer Community).
Imagine once enemy charged into one pack of Grey Hunter, only to find two other pack on both flanks counter charge in. Now, eat 36 chainsword attacks which hit on 2s! Then eat 4 PF from those two Pack Leader in the face. Hahahaha
It would be too beautiful (brutal).

Let's also remember they will get 3 more psychic powers. If they get anything like soulburst or warptime, immediately will be a top tier codex.

Bremon wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
They are quite different, no way to do a direct comparison.

The red thirst encourages an high number of low/mid str attacks, something that complements well BA.

This one encourages heavy weapons like powerfists.

In general we can assume that wolves are being geared more towards herohammer, where BA are geared to make use of those fast infantries.

yeah, smash captain, assault terminators and sanguinary Guard, hammer death company, etc. are really geared towards high number of low attacks. Is that your meta or just your head canon? The only high volume of attacks units are chain sword vanguard veterans and chainsword death company.

 Galef wrote:

Bremon wrote:
+1 to hit and +1 to wound are basically identical.

Statistically, sure, but situationally one can be quite different from the other.
With melee to-hits, we are usually talking about 2s, 3s, maybe 4s. Often with some kind of reroll. So already good odds
Wounding, however, can often be 4s or 5s with no reroll of any kind and are often affected by the target's T, unlike to-hit rolls that are rarely affected by the target in melee.

+1 to wound can make a tough situation easier. +1 to hit usually just makes an already easy situation easier. Both have merits
Wolves having better melee weapons certainly swings this a bit, but I still hold that, when used to their full potential, both traits are equally good.
I commend GW for this.

Also, some BA units also have Black Rage, which adds to Red Thirst in a way.

-

Statistically and situationally are the same except for in your mind where you are feeling a placebo about hitting on 4s and wounding on 4s vs hitting on 3s and wounding on 5s. I’m not sure if you’re aware but wound rerolls are a cheaper buff than hits when comparing captains to lieutenants, and chaplain rerolls mean 3s on fists for most units are dead rolls anyway.

When used to their full potential +1 to Hit is objectively better.

Black Rage is one infantry unit, one dreadnought that no one uses (while Wolves get their own special dread who’s more versatile), a special character, or you can spend CP on a character.

I won’t argue this anymore, because people are using their feelings for the basis of rebuttals rather than facts, but I think we can agree that SW players should be extremely happy about their Tactic (which even has a secondary benefit of 6” intervention for that extra middle finger to BA and BT players)

Said the one who has no idea what math is.

"smash captain, assault terminators and sanguinary Guard, hammer death company, " the exact ones you nominated right? You do understand that sanguinary guards gain MORE from a +1 to wound than from a +1 to hit, right?
You do understand that being able to reroll ones has no impact on this math, right? Why did you bring that into the discussion?
Red thirst is a better trait in the greatest number of cases, the only cases where you want a +1 to hit over a +1 to wound is if you are WS3+ with a -1 or a WS2+ with a -1 that is smashing T3 or T4 stuff. In all other cases Red Thirst is mathematically better, which is the reason why GW correctly enchanced the puppies it with an additional minor bonus.

You are just whining for the sake it.

2 3 4 2 0.69 0.56 0.42 3 0.56 0.44 0.33 4 0.42 0.33 0.25 5 0.28 0.22 0.17 6 0.14 0.11 0.08

Hits are on the top horizontally, wounds are on the left vertically.

So a baseline would be:
Hitting on 3s, wounding on 4s.

Space Wolves: 2 & 4 = 0.42
Blood Angels: 3 & 3 = 0.44

It's basically identical to BA but SW get free 6" heroic interventions. Cause wolves as so much more heroic than "regular" astartes.

I can't tell you how many times that would have won me a game if I could intervene at 6" with Calgar (basically impossible to avoid it with that range) and I got to fight with him twice for CP. WOW. That is a nice freebe there.

VS eldar with lightnight fast reflex. It is the clear better option. You already wound eldar on 2's already probably. We akready know wolven and TW are going to be str 10 in CC.

 Marmatag wrote:
Let's also remember they will get 3 more psychic powers. If they get anything like soulburst or warptime, immediately will be a top tier codex.

Only Chaos and Eldar are allowed good psychic powers.

As an ork player, I'd MUCH rather have +1 to wound over +1 to hit (waaagh banner notwithstanding).

Granted, + to hit helps with exploding effects (like death to the false emperor), but being able to wound T5,6,7 on 4s in melee instead of 5s seems like a massive boon.

Though, this tactic might make heroic intervention actually useful.

Did anyone else read that as not caring if the enemy models within 6" of the Wolves had actually charged? So your opponent finishes charge moves on the other side of the table, and you can charge anythign that got close to you (or failed charges).

I imagine it'd do very nasty things to any Shining Spears that failed/declined charges or fell back the previous round.

Bharring wrote:
Did anyone else read that as not caring if the enemy models within 6" of the Wolves had actually charged? So your opponent finishes charge moves on the other side of the table, and you can charge anythign that got close to you (or failed charges).

I imagine it'd do very nasty things to any Shining Spears that failed/declined charges or fell back the previous round.

That's how Heroic Intervention has always worked in this edition. You can heroically intervene into any enemy unit within 3" of one of your characters at the end of your opponent's charge phase, regardless of that enemy unit having actually charged. Page 182 of the main rule book: "After the enemy has completed all of their charge moves, any of your CHARACTERS that are within 3" of an enemy unit may perform a Heroic Intervention. Any that do so can move up to 3", as long as they end the move closer to the nearest enemy model."

However, only a couple weapons have ranges of 3" or less. There are a fair few more - one of which is actually a top contender in the meta - that have a 6" range.

That is all.

Sooooo this might be a dumb observation but if this helps TWC with hammers become useful and even ideal, does this mean our start collecting boxes will actually be worthwhile? I'm thinking blood claws, TWC TH/SS and jump pack wolf Lord?

SkylarkR6 wrote:
Sooooo this might be a dumb observation but if this helps TWC with hammers become useful and even ideal, does this mean our start collecting boxes will actually be worthwhile? I'm thinking blood claws, TWC TH/SS and jump pack wolf Lord?

really the biggest problem with TWC is the random increase in a storm shield cost for them. fix that and they're in a decent place as I understand it.

I do think the SW start collecting box is a decent one, although I think Grey Hunters are still gonna be the way to go.

really the biggest problem with TWC is the random increase in a storm shield cost for them. fix that and they're in a decent place as I understand it.

I honestly don't believe they are killy enough for their points. They went down a ton in attack power from 7th to 8th (all the attacks being made by the Marine, to half of the attacks being made by the TW). A 5 pt reduction in cost is probably not going to help a ton. Over a couple units you'll save what 20pts, 40? I'm not sure how many SS you run in a unit. Typically I do half or a bit over. The +1 to hit will help some by itself, making the expensive weapons hit more. But they either need to be much cheaper, or have more wnds/attacks. Currently a Wound and an Attack is worth ~5pts. Basic Marine to Intercessor. Well the closest Things to Thunderwolves are Inceptors. They have -1 wound, but otherwise the same profile. The Thunderwolf is also essentially equipped with 1d3 +1str -1 save extra attacks, and doesn't fly, but can take melee weapons. Well we know Melee weapons cost the same on pretty much everything, so that isn't important. Is that one wound and (average) 2 attacks worth 15pts? Also lets not forget that fly helps a ton when getting at enemy units in ruins and such. Thunderwolves can't use transports, can't outflank. Currently the only job i see them doing is escorting TW characters across the table. WG Bikers are better at that. I think Thunderwolves should cost about 10 pts less (5 for the model and 5 for the SS) and have one more base attack. That should make them about right compared to other options IMO.