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When you assault the unit, do you advance into them if they fail their morale check or stay put?  This is a little weird because the Assaulting a broken unit rule states that the broken unit makes the check before any models are moved, which if failed - the unit is wiped out.  That all makes sense for the target unit, but what happens to the assaulting unit?  Do they still make the assault move?  Do they get a massacre roll?

 

The theoretical situation is a brood of leaping hormagaunts 12" from some fleeing Tau.  The fleeing tau are the nearest target, but are close enough to a lot of other tau units that will allow some wicked consolidation for the tyranid player.

The Hormagaunst declare the charge on the fleeing tau, the tau take a morale check at ld7 before any models are moved and fail.  The fleeing squad disappears, now what are the hormagaunts allowed to do.

 

 

I've actually had this situation happen to me. A Ravener Brood wiped out a Crisis suit, then consolidated into a fleeing Fire Warrior team. The Warriors blew their regroup test and died. We couldn't figure out what happens to the Raveners. Do they move again? Do they move at all?

While the rules aren't terribly clear about what happens in this case, the Hormagaunts would seem to be able to consolidate due to having destroyed the Tau, thus causing a Massacre! result. An assault happens, but the charge never does. One could argue that Massacre! is not triggered and the Hormagaunts don't get to do anything, but that seems to be a bit of a stretch. There isn't any support for the Hormagaunts making any other form of movement (like, making their assault move to where the Tau were).

The rule weirdness this brings up, though, is that since the falling back unit getting destroyed happens before charging models get moved, one could force the morale check by declaring a charge from a unit on the other side of the board -- range (and thus validity of the charge) doesn't get checked until the charging models get moved, and this check happens before that.

Incorrect Lowinor, check your assault rules again. The only way to get a Massacre result is by killing every member of a squad. You do not get a massacre result by catching a fleeing unit, ect. I think the phrase "before any model is moved" is pretty cut and dry here. The tau are destroyed and the hormagaunts do not move as it would technically be a failed charge as they are unable to get into base to base with an enemy model.

Posted By foil7102 on 06/15/2006 10:51 AM
Incorrect Lowinor, check your assault rules again. The only way to get a Massacre result is by killing every member of a squad. You do not get a massacre result by catching a fleeing unit, ect. I think the phrase "before any model is moved" is pretty cut and dry here. The tau are destroyed and the hormagaunts do not move as it would technically be a failed charge as they are unable to get into base to base with an enemy model.

p.43, MASSACRE! Heading:  "If one side destroys the enemy, it wins automatically ... They may consolidate."

p.48, ASSAULTED WHILE FALLING BACK Heading: "If it fails to regroup the unit is scattered and destroyed."

Note that Massacre! keys off of the unit being destroyed during an assault, not wounds done or not killing every member of a squad.  The unit is assaulted but gets destroyed before it is charged.  An assault takes place, just no charge (or exchange of blows).

Do me a favor Lowinor, Please read page 43 under "sweeping advances" then post again, be sure to continue to the last sentence of that section.

Posted By foil7102 on 06/15/2006 11:18 AM
Do me a favor Lowinor, Please read page 43 under "sweeping advances" then post again, be sure to continue to the last sentence of that section.

And it has what to do with assaulting a unit falling back?  Assaulting a unit falling back is not a Sweeping Advance.  That a Sweeping Advance does not constitute a Massacre! has no relevance to other forms of a unit getting destroyed.

No, but it does nulify your argument. Your argument is that anytime a squad is destroyed in a close combat it is a massacre. That is clearly not the case, because when a unit is in close combat and destroyed by a sweeping advance there is no massacre result.

I stand by my first argument, the phrase "before any model is moved" is pretty cut and dry here. The tau are destroyed and the hormagaunts do not move as it would technically be a failed charge as they are unable to get into base to base with an enemy model.

No, but it does nulify your argument. Your argument is that anytime a squad is destroyed in a close combat it is a massacre. That is clearly not the case, because when a unit is in close combat and destroyed by a sweeping advance there is no massacre result.

A unit getting destroyed in a combat causes Massacre! unless something (e.g., the Sweeping Advance rule) prevents it. My error was assuming the "Determine Assault Results" phase happens during an assault and not a combat -- the assault happens, and triggers the unit being destroyed, but because they are destroyed before the units move, no combat happens, so the Determine Assault Results rule never gets triggered.

Open mouth, insert foot.

The Hormagaunts don't get to move, because no combat happens, and no consolidation happens because the assault results are not checked to trigger one.

I agree with your ultimate conclusion.

Although it is a bit wierd, if a falling back unit is destroyed from failing it's Ld test, the attacking unit does not get to move.

That is clearly not the case, because when a unit is in close combat and destroyed by a sweeping advance there is no massacre result.

Page 43, 'Sweeping Advance', last line: "Note that this does cause a 'Massacre' result"

It's amazing how many people read that as 'does not'...

HOLY ODIN'S BEARD BATMAN. Insaniak you are absolutly right, Wow, I think I have read that incorrectly about 20 times.

to tell the truth just reading his post now before I read his second line I would swear I saw "does not"...

Seriously? I always read it as "does not" as well.

Wow, that significantly changes the game. So you only consolidate 3" if the enemy runs away and you don't catch him in a sweeping advance (or can't because he removed all BTB models)?