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I don't know about everyone else, but shooting pistols in close combat is something that I regularly forget.

But given that being in close combat is pretty much point-blank, would it make sense for pistols to auto hit in close combat? Or maybe have a +1 (or something to hit)?

IDK, this is a fairly minor fix, but I've found pistols to generally be a pretty useless option this edition.

Then again, I play orks, so we don't really have good pistol options or good BS, so my opinion might be slightly biased. And maybe 30 ork boyz autohitting with sluggas in CC is a bit strong.

But still, maybe just a +1 to hit would be fun.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
I don't know about everyone else, but shooting pistols in close combat is something that I regularly forget.

But given that being in close combat is pretty much point-blank, would it make sense for pistols to auto hit in close combat? Or maybe have a +1 (or something to hit)?

IDK, this is a fairly minor fix, but I've found pistols to generally be a pretty useless option this edition.

Then again, I play orks, so we don't really have good pistol options or good BS, so my opinion might be slightly biased. And maybe 30 ork boyz autohitting with sluggas in CC is a bit strong.

But still, maybe just a +1 to hit would be fun.

I don't have the problem of forgetting to fire them. My issue is that I don't get the chance to fire them off in combat. The enemy falls back before my 3rd turn of CC. Pistols should allow Overwatch against units that fall back. Maybe even just allows a free shooting attack, not overwatch.

Maybe a free shot at units fleeing for a Fall Back would be good.

Another option for pistols is to allow them to fire in the opponent's assault phase too.

Can't wait to use this with dual Plasma Pistols, suddenly they become a lot safer when fired point-blank.

Personally, I've been finding a use for my pistols a lot more often these days. Between taking enemy units hostage, throwing archons into suicidal situations where they'll try to tank with their shadow fields, and being on the receiving end of enemy units charging my units, I've been glad for the occassional pistol shot here and there.

My wyches, banshees, and scorpions are all dedicated hostage takers. Some of my dark eldar units are packing blast pistols. My harlequins usually have some fusion pistols tucked away and don't always want to put up with overwatch after falling back and charging in again. Delayed unit mop up in my shooting phase and anti-tank shots I don't have to fall back to deliver are nice when they come up.

Being able to shoot them in your opponents shooting phase after your opponent has finished shooting would be nice.

It would also be nice to fix the rules so they could be shot in combat.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Being able to shoot them in your opponents shooting phase after your opponent has finished shooting would be nice.

It would also be nice to fix the rules so they could be shot in combat.

Allow one of the models basic attacks to be replaced with a pistol attack using their WS (per pistol equipped if they have 2 or more attacks). Sometimes more effective, sometimes not.

 Kcalehc wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Being able to shoot them in your opponents shooting phase after your opponent has finished shooting would be nice.

It would also be nice to fix the rules so they could be shot in combat.

Allow one of the models basic attacks to be replaced with a pistol attack using their WS (per pistol equipped if they have 2 or more attacks). Sometimes more effective, sometimes not.

Well, when it's not more effective, you just don't use it. When it is more effective, you now have a fusion/blast/inferno/plasma pistol attack in the fight phase. It's a cool idea, but it would call for a somewhat significant price hike if we assume that pistols are more or less balanced at their current price tag.

Or have it possible for models that are ineligible to fight due to distance to enemy "swing" using pistols?

Say, after all movements pertaining to fighting has occurred, your unit that is engaged in combat still has models that are too far (not within 1" of enemy model, not within 1" of friendly unit that is within 1" of enemy unit) can make a close combat attack using it's pistol profile, but only at the unit its own unit is engaged with.

I think that replacing one attack with the pistols profile would work, still hitting on WS - point blank in-melee pistol use is a lot more related to how well you do in melee than how good a marksman you are.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Maybe a free shot at units fleeing for a Fall Back would be good.

Another option for pistols is to allow them to fire in the opponent's assault phase too.

You should really get attacks of opportunity against a unit that falls back. The retreating unit not being able to fire seldom matters, either due to keywords, faction traits or keywords.
I cannot think of another system that just lets a unit get away without so much of a scratch.

Blast pistols would be utterly hilarious with this.

This would also make Banshees not-terrible. Half their attacks are S4 pseudorend? Yes please!

I like the idea of shooting people as they Fall Back. Makes thematic sense, gives them a slight uptick in usability, and reduces the power of falling back.

 Yarium wrote:
I like the idea of shooting people as they Fall Back. Makes thematic sense, gives them a slight uptick in usability, and reduces the power of falling back.

I was thinking close combat, but pistols could work as well.
It could be something like "if an enemy unit falls back the unit(s) it was engaged with may make 1 close combat attack, resolved as normal. If the formally engaged units have pistol type weapons, they may use those as well, using their full profile"
The idea being that the fleeing unit might be able to get out of reach of a swing (hence the reduction to 1 close combat attack), but they aren't going to outsmart outrun booleet. Its not as if the firing unit aren't going to use full auto at that range either if they could.
Most pistols have 1 attack anyway, so it doesn't matter that much.

Come to think of it, they should use their primary weapon against a unit that's falling back as well. Because why wouldn't they. Though since it would be harder to bring a full sized rifle to bear, maybe rapid fire weapons could hit on 6s with no extra CC attack (hard to bring to bear), assault weapons hit normally with no CC attacks (because they tend to more compact, and so easier to use, but still need both hands), and pistols hit normally and get CC attacks (because they can be used with one hand). Heavy weapons cannot be used this way, because they are too cumbersome to be used this way, unless specified otherwise (basically any unit that doesn't experience penalties when using a heavy weapon as part of their BASE rules may use it, requiring 6s to hit)

 Yarium wrote:
I like the idea of shooting people as they Fall Back. Makes thematic sense, gives them a slight uptick in usability, and reduces the power of falling back.

Sorry but it actually doesn't make sense at all. Why would anyone opt to shoot with their pistols when their enemy gave all the time/distance to re-draw their primary weapon? If I was a marine on the field and my enemies started retreating after a knife fight, I would redraw my rifle to shoot them down...

 skchsan wrote:

 Yarium wrote:
I like the idea of shooting people as they Fall Back. Makes thematic sense, gives them a slight uptick in usability, and reduces the power of falling back.

Sorry but it actually doesn't make sense at all. Why would anyone opt to shoot with their pistols when their enemy gave all the time/distance to re-draw their primary weapon? If I was a marine on the field and my enemies started retreating after a knife fight, I would redraw my rifle to shoot them down...

Which is why I suggested using a primary weapon, which some caveats

 skchsan wrote:

 Yarium wrote:
I like the idea of shooting people as they Fall Back. Makes thematic sense, gives them a slight uptick in usability, and reduces the power of falling back.

Sorry but it actually doesn't make sense at all. Why would anyone opt to shoot with their pistols when their enemy gave all the time/distance to re-draw their primary weapon? If I was a marine on the field and my enemies started retreating after a knife fight, I would redraw my rifle to shoot them down...

Well, theoretically, they're fighting with a Pistol in one hand, and a weapon in the other. So their Pistol is already drawn when the enemy suddenly turns tail and falls back. Most models with pistols are modelled with Pistols already in hand. Tactical Marines are really an exception in that they have both a Bolter and a Pistol, and are usually modelled holding the Bolter, and not the Pistol.

 Yarium wrote:

 skchsan wrote:

 Yarium wrote:
I like the idea of shooting people as they Fall Back. Makes thematic sense, gives them a slight uptick in usability, and reduces the power of falling back.

Sorry but it actually doesn't make sense at all. Why would anyone opt to shoot with their pistols when their enemy gave all the time/distance to re-draw their primary weapon? If I was a marine on the field and my enemies started retreating after a knife fight, I would redraw my rifle to shoot them down...

Well, theoretically, they're fighting with a Pistol in one hand, and a weapon in the other. So their Pistol is already drawn when the enemy suddenly turns tail and falls back. Most models with pistols are modelled with Pistols already in hand. Tactical Marines are really an exception in that they have both a Bolter and a Pistol, and are usually modelled holding the Bolter, and not the Pistol.

Except when the model in question does not have pistol nor close combat weapon, and is instead implied to be fighting with their rifle.
Like Imperial Guardsmen, Necron Warriors, Necron Immortals, pretty sure Guardians don't have a knife either.

It makes no sense that those models, which have their gun in hand, especially if there's some sort of bayonet attachment on it already (see: necron flayers and blasters) cannot shoot whilst pistol wielders can.
However, I am going to assume that its going to take some time to recover from fighting in close quarters and bring the weapon to bare, so there should be an aim penalty of some sort. I'm in favor of an overwatch style mechanic, because I like parallel rules; overwatch going into combat, overwatch going out of combat. And of course not all weapons are designed equal; some would be easier to use quickly than others, so the rules should represent that.

Overwatch could probably use the same system. A blanket 6s to hit only doesn't really make much sense, when you consider that the idea behind overwatch is that the firing unit is taken off guard and has to shoot rapidly without aiming.
Well, what about weapons that are designed to be used at close range? Shouldn't shotguns be optimal in this situation? Why is it that there are hit modifiers, but overwatch doesn't get them?

Warhammer Fantasy's Stand and Shoot charge reaction handled this much better.
Weapons with the slow to fire rule cannot reaction fire (most heavy weapons)
Quick to fire weapons can always be used to reaction fire (assault weapon analogue)

Note that oddly enough, there were no hit penalties to reaction fire in 8th ed. The only caveat that was you can only reaction fire if the charge distance is greater than the charging unit's move stat.
Which makes sense, as they'd be too close to aim and fire at. Its a lot cleaner and you don't have to worry about modifiers and hitting on 6s.

You can also think how much easier it is, when you're trying to fight with those cumbersome weapons, to toss them and take out your pistol and start just firing away.

If you're swinging your Lasgun like a baseball bat, and then the Wych you were fighting dashes backwards, how quickly are you going to be shooting the Lasgun effectively?

If you're swinging a Powersword around in one hand, and have your pistol in the other, and a Wych you were fighting dashes backwards, how quickly are you going to be shooting the pistol effectively?

They can both be debated, but I'm fairly sure the second would be much faster to shoot than the first.

Sure, everyone in that position then readies their rife to shoot. And they do - in their next shooting phase. Time between rounds is an abstraction. There aren't 30 minutes of clock-time passing between their movement phase and your next shooting/fight phase.

Also, let's not forget, the "it makes thematic sense" is great, and backs up a good rule, but it's a good bonus regardless of whether or not it makes thematic sense as it gives a truly useful ability to having a Pistol.

Bharring wrote:
If you're swinging your Lasgun like a baseball bat, and then the Wych you were fighting dashes backwards, how quickly are you going to be shooting the Lasgun effectively?

If you're swinging a Powersword around in one hand, and have your pistol in the other, and a Wych you were fighting dashes backwards, how quickly are you going to be shooting the pistol effectively?

They can both be debated, but I'm fairly sure the second would be much faster to shoot than the first.

Sure, everyone in that position then readies their rife to shoot. And they do - in their next shooting phase. Time between rounds is an abstraction. There aren't 30 minutes of clock-time passing between their movement phase and your next shooting/fight phase.

So something like: as an enemy falls back, pistols may shoot and hit on 5+, assault and rapid fire may shoot and hit on 6+, heavy weapons and grenades may not shoot. No additional modifiers apply.

Distances measured to where the enemy falls back to - so faster models with a large enough move may be able to avoid some pistol/flamer type weapons, and/or rapid fire range. And I suppose this would allow shenanigans (as in overwatch) where they move out of LOS so you don't get a shot; but it works both ways so somewhat fair really.

But if some Kabs fall back from your Guardsmen, and Wyches charge just as the Kabs fall back, do your Guardsmen have time to ready their rifles and fire?

If Kabs fall back and wyhces *don't* charge your Guardsmen, the Guardsmen already get to fire (full BS, in RF range) at the Kabs next as the rules currently are.

Bharring wrote:
But if some Kabs fall back from your Guardsmen, and Wyches charge just as the Kabs fall back, do your Guardsmen have time to ready their rifles and fire?

If Kabs fall back and wyhces *don't* charge your Guardsmen, the Guardsmen already get to fire (full BS, in RF range) at the Kabs next as the rules currently are.

They don't necessarily have to ready their rifles properly though.
They could just shoot from the hip without trying to aim. Will they hit? Most likely not. But they could try.

So perhaps an order/stratagem "Screw firing right, just fire fast": Unit may immediately fire at a unit that withdrew from combat (additional specifics to make the rule workable), but at a -1-to-hit. The unit may not fire during it's next Shooting phase.

Or did you mean in addition to their next Shooting phase? Because why can't you hip fire during the opponents Movement phase with models not in combat? Why can't you fire during their Psykic phase? It's because all that shooting is rolled up into your Shooting phase.

If you're assualted before the Shooting phase, the hip firing you suggest is already covered - by Overwatch.

 Yarium wrote:
I like the idea of shooting people as they Fall Back. Makes thematic sense, gives them a slight uptick in usability, and reduces the power of falling back.

Harlies have a stratagem for for just that. Fusion pistols sting when you decide to fall back.

Giving it to everyone is something else. Unless it is made into a common stratagem or cost is increased or a penalty is given to not totally invalidate one of their unique rules.

 Erik_Morkai wrote:

 Yarium wrote:
I like the idea of shooting people as they Fall Back. Makes thematic sense, gives them a slight uptick in usability, and reduces the power of falling back.

Harlies have a stratagem for for just that. Fusion pistols sting when you decide to fall back.

Giving it to everyone is something else. Unless it is made into a common stratagem or cost is increased or a penalty is given to not totally invalidate one of their unique rules.

At first I tried to think of a way to make the rule change not invalidate the stratagem, but then I realized... it doesn't! While everyone else is shooting once when they fall back, the Harlequins can shoot once with their pistols, or even shoot twice by using this strat!