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If there is absolutely no space to put the assaulting model because the level is covered in enemy models, can you still assault that level?

Ozomoto wrote:
If there is absolutely no space to put the assaulting model because the level is covered in enemy models, can you still assault that level?

No, you cannot.

This was picked up on day 0, was discussed to death and has been officially confirmed by FAQ.

BRB FAQ wrote:Q: If a unit declares a charge against an enemy unit that is entirely on the upper level of a terrain feature such as a ruin, Sector Mechanicus structure, etc., but it cannot physically end its charge move within 1" of any models from that unit (either because there is not enough room to place the charging unit, or because the charging unit is unable to end its move on the upper levels of that terrain feature because of the expanded terrain rules for it – as with ruins, for example), does that charge fail?
A: Yes.

EDIT:

Foiled! There's always next time, nyahahahaha!

Shoot some dead first, is the answer.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Shoot some dead first, is the answer.

But wait bro, what about when my Boyz only have BS5+ and the units in question have inherent -2 to hit?!?!?12211twoone

*Glances at Dakka! x 3 army-wide rule.

VIIIINNNNDDDIIIICCCCAAAAATTTTIIIIIIIOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNN!

Take a ik use the ik strategem that specifically kets you assault the upper level

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Shoot some dead first, is the answer.

But wait bro, what about when my Boyz only have BS5+ and the units in question have inherent -2 to hit?!?!?12211twoone

*Glances at Dakka! x 3 army-wide rule.

VIIIINNNNDDDIIIICCCCAAAAATTTTIIIIIIIOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNN!

Or do what everyone else does and autohitting weapons.

Considering that you have to be within 12" to charge in the first place, units with -2 to hit that can actually be assaulted AND block an entire upper floor of a ruin become very rare...

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Shoot some dead first, is the answer.

But wait bro, what about when my Boyz only have BS5+ and the units in question have inherent -2 to hit?!?!?12211twoone

*Glances at Dakka! x 3 army-wide rule.

VIIIINNNNDDDIIIICCCCAAAAATTTTIIIIIIIOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNN!

Vindication for my Khorne Daemons? Please? My Bloodthirsters can't reach that high.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Shoot some dead first, is the answer.

But wait bro, what about when my Boyz only have BS5+ and the units in question have inherent -2 to hit?!?!?12211twoone

*Glances at Dakka! x 3 army-wide rule.

VIIIINNNNDDDIIIICCCCAAAAATTTTIIIIIIIOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNN!

Vindication for my Khorne Daemons? Please? My Bloodthirsters can't reach that high.

Bring one that isn't insensate rage? Or skullcannons?

Or a World Eater Vindicator.

 Jidmah wrote:
Considering that you have to be within 12" to charge in the first place, units with -2 to hit that can actually be assaulted AND block an entire upper floor of a ruin become very rare...

And even in this situation, the opponent can either:
A) remove models from the rear of the unit, thus STILL not giving any room to assault the upper level or
B) remove models from the front if it now means their unit is no longer within 12" of the assaulting unit and thus denying the mere possibility of declaring the charge anyway.

Levels seem to be the bane of melee units everywhere.

-

Or, for Khorne, don't use your too-big-to-fit-in-doors legendary mass of violence incarnate to... fit in doors? Moving to a position the enemy can't reasonably function in is a *great* tactic.

Now, I hate the rule, and think it's super gamey. Especially since you measure from the *base* not the model (so can't strike from beneath it outside certain baseless models). But hiding in a building where there's no space for a DP to fit inside is a very fluffy tactic.

On the other hand, when you could fit through the doors but they've packed them too much for you to have a place to stand, that's BS.

I guess you didn't understand my answer.

If you are close enough to charge, Allaitoc, Ravenguard and Alpha Legion traits don't do jack. You also can't ever assault fliers, so all of them are out too. Eldar hover tanks rarely manage block a floor of a ruin, neither do characters.

There are next to no units left with -2 to hit vs shooting and enough models to cover an an entire upper floor of a ruin. The only time that happens regularly is when one unit of eldar infantry/bikes buffed by stratagem and/or psychic power or a huge blob of plague bearers are sitting in a ruin.

Within 12" can also mean standing right below them. In that case, it doesn't matter who dies, you just move up through the floor and start bashing in sniper heads.

Everything you have written applies to every assault ever. You just have to assume that you won't be making the charge if you need to get 10"+.

The whole "you can't charge if you can't fit on the same level" of ruins is really dumb and really gamey.

I'm routinely told I can't charge Grav Tanks because they take up so much floor space.

But, on the other hand, I almost always forget that the inherent -1 to hit traits don't work within 12" so I'm by no means a good player.

For me, units should be able to attack in cqc from one floor above and one floor below where they stand. We can measure the charge as normal but we should be able to attack from the floor below (or above). I think it'd be both more balanced and more cinematic.

It's not gamey at all...it's a viable tactic. If your army can't knock out a few models to make space, then you can't get in that doorway, staircase, etc. There should be a penalty for one-trick pony armies which have no ability to shoot something a few inches away.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
The whole "you can't charge if you can't fit on the same level" of ruins is really dumb and really gamey.

I keep hearing this argument and it still doesn't make any sense. For thousands of years we built castle walls to exploit this very advantage. Stairwells are natural choke points/kill zones and climbing wall to try to get at someone makes you a sitting duck.

Personally, I'd rather simulate this problem with some sort of high-ground advantage in assault, but I don't feel that the current rules are terribly unrealistic, or that there are no solutions - it may force a 1 turn delay to an assault, forcing you to get in the lower floors before assault is a viable option, and if you don't have shooting to open holes, well, some units and tactics have hard counters, and that's okay, it keeps people from building one trick pony armies.

Walls keeping (non-flyers) out is great. But doorways and ramps keeping them out, not so much. Stairs Ladders should be hard to traverse while there are enemies atop it, but you should be able to at least *try* to hit the guys at the top of them from the bottom.

 John Prins wrote:
I keep hearing this argument and it still doesn't make any sense. For thousands of years we built castle walls to exploit this very advantage. Stairwells are natural choke points/kill zones and climbing wall to try to get at someone makes you a sitting duck.

I don't think in the time of castles anyone has come across soldiers/creatures that can jump or fly to the top of a building and come crashing down on an enemy unit.

When that *did* become a thing, Castles became Bunkers.

So we still bunker down. We just call them something different.

Bharring wrote:
When that *did* become a thing, Castles became Bunkers.

So we still bunker down. We just call them something different.

Except we aren't talking about bunkers here are we? We're talking about the second floor of a ruin.

 Elbows wrote:
It's not gamey at all...it's a viable tactic. If your army can't knock out a few models to make space, then you can't get in that doorway, staircase, etc. There should be a penalty for one-trick pony armies which have no ability to shoot something a few inches away.

There already is a penalty though? It's called having to get within 12" of the enemy and successfully making a charge while allowing them the opportunity to shoot you in the face...
What's the penalty, exactly, for all these 'one-trick pony' armies that only shoot and have no real close quarters units?

 John Prins wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
The whole "you can't charge if you can't fit on the same level" of ruins is really dumb and really gamey.

I keep hearing this argument and it still doesn't make any sense. For thousands of years we built castle walls to exploit this very advantage. Stairwells are natural choke points/kill zones and climbing wall to try to get at someone makes you a sitting duck.

Personally, I'd rather simulate this problem with some sort of high-ground advantage in assault, but I don't feel that the current rules are terribly unrealistic, or that there are no solutions - it may force a 1 turn delay to an assault, forcing you to get in the lower floors before assault is a viable option, and if you don't have shooting to open holes, well, some units and tactics have hard counters, and that's okay, it keeps people from building one trick pony armies.

"One trick pony" again huh? Are you Elbows in disguise? Not sure how "getting into combat through floors of ruins" is equivalent to "one trick pony army" for either of you.

I'd agree with your analogy except we aren't talking about castle walls with human vs human combat. We're talking about the 41st Millenium where literal demons run around and hover tanks exist. Also these are ruined buildings, not purpose-built for defending from a close combat encounter. If demons can appear anywhere, including Private Jenkin's head, why wouldn't they appear in a cramped room? If Necrons can phase through solid objects why wouldn't they phase into a tightly packed enemy? If you want to picture floor to floor combat, just think about films like Aliens, or even the raptor scene of Jurassic Park.

Furthermore please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm no fluff expert, but to my knowledge Orks have never been portrayed in the fluff as the patient and polite type. I don't recall any fluff where they go to charge up some ruins as a "Green Tide" then the Nob turns to his Boyz and says; "Nah, itz not gonna work ladz, turn around. Turn around ladz. Dere's no space in dere ladz. No room for us in dere, let's just wait here till maybe one of em shuffles over a bit and one of us can squeeze in." Maybe I'm wrong but it doesn't seem very Orky to me....

Which is still putting solid structure between the chargee and the charger.

The idea that we don't hide behind walls simply because things can fly is limited.

Bharring wrote:
Which is still putting solid structure between the chargee and the charger.

The idea that we don't hide behind walls simply because things can fly is limited.

Again, I'm no expert here so take this with a big chunk of salt, but I don't recall a *wall* ever saving anyone from the infinite rage of a Bloodthirster who wants them dead? I don't think a *floor* has ever saved anyone either? The models look to me like they would laugh in the face of such obstacles, if only they weren't so full of rage and bloodlust. Like an Ork can smash through a wall and get ya, a Bloodthirster makes you part of the wall.

I think the idea is more that you should be trying to assault up there, but it should be hard. But how to show it in game terms?

Require a charge to get to the closest point that you can? That makes it no more difficult to charge them than if they were on the ground. They should have a bonus.

Require the charge distance roll be enough to get base-to-base, even if you can't place there? (1) that gets odd in that you wind up in the same place whether you charged or didnt, and (2) it ignores chokepoints.

Require that charge distance allow you to navigate to what would be base-to-base, following the same path the unit used to get up there? That might work. But how do you make clear, concise rules that properly illustrate that? How do you clearly show the advantage the chokepoint and position gives the defenders?

Proper rules would be hard. Very hard. Clearly, GW thought no rules to cover the situation was better for the game than whatever they would/did come up with.

Hopefully it changes, but hopefully it's not "lawls my Greater Demon punches you 10" away cuz he can make it to the building you're hiding in!". Hopefully a good balancing point for the competing concerns ("hide from that giant freak of death" vs "my giant freak of death shouldn't be completely stopped by a half inch of elevation!").


Automatically Appended Next Post:
English,
But just how big a wall/fortification can a Bloodthirster actually smash through? Something like "Can engage models within 3" of building edge"? How does that vary compared to a Dreadnaught? To a Phantom Titan?

 Jidmah wrote:
I guess you didn't understand my answer.

If you are close enough to charge, Allaitoc, Ravenguard and Alpha Legion traits don't do jack. You also can't ever assault fliers, so all of them are out too. Eldar hover tanks rarely manage block a floor of a ruin, neither do characters.

There are next to no units left with -2 to hit vs shooting and enough models to cover an an entire upper floor of a ruin. The only time that happens regularly is when one unit of eldar infantry/bikes buffed by stratagem and/or psychic power or a huge blob of plague bearers are sitting in a ruin.

Within 12" can also mean standing right below them. In that case, it doesn't matter who dies, you just move up through the floor and start bashing in sniper heads.

Everything you have written applies to every assault ever. You just have to assume that you won't be making the charge if you need to get 10"+.

No, I understood what you meant entirely. I was just pointing out how you can still prevent up-level assaults in many situations.
If the enemy is just below the unit and you shoot them to "make room" you can still take casualties that prevents any of your models getting up unless they have FLY or can go around behind the unit.
Remember that nothing can go through walls. Over, sure, but not through.

So if I have Alaitoc Rangers with some at the edge of the level and a wall behind them, you have to kill enough to force me to take the models that are blocking you. If I can still leave enough models at the edge to block you, unless you have FLY, getting within 12" or being "just underneath" them won't matter. You can't got through them or through the wall behind them.
Situational, yes, but something to keep in mind.

-

Bharring wrote:
I think the idea is more that you should be trying to assault up there, but it should be hard. But how to show it in game terms?

Require a charge to get to the closest point that you can? That makes it no more difficult to charge them than if they were on the ground. They should have a bonus.

Require the charge distance roll be enough to get base-to-base, even if you can't place there? (1) that gets odd in that you wind up in the same place whether you charged or didnt, and (2) it ignores chokepoints.

Require that charge distance allow you to navigate to what would be base-to-base, following the same path the unit used to get up there? That might work. But how do you make clear, concise rules that properly illustrate that? How do you clearly show the advantage the chokepoint and position gives the defenders?

Proper rules would be hard. Very hard. Clearly, GW thought no rules to cover the situation was better for the game than whatever they would/did come up with.

Hopefully it changes, but hopefully it's not "lawls my Greater Demon punches you 10" away cuz he can make it to the building you're hiding in!". Hopefully a good balancing point for the competing concerns ("hide from that giant freak of death" vs "my giant freak of death shouldn't be completely stopped by a half inch of elevation!").


Automatically Appended Next Post:
English,
But just how big a wall/fortification can a Bloodthirster actually smash through? Something like "Can engage models within 3" of building edge"? How does that vary compared to a Dreadnaught? To a Phantom Titan?

I don't mind it being harder to charge a unit in such cover, but currently it's completely impossible. Which is silly. Let's not pretend it's 'a tactic' to place models with an inherent -2 to hit in shooting from 12" away on the top floor of a building so there is no space on said floor. That isn't a tactic, it's an exploit and it requires virtually no skill.

I would suggest that the easiest way to manage the situation with regards large units punching through walls would be to use keywords like they're supposed to. Something like; "Keywords - Infantry, Biker and Dreadnought units can attack models 1 floor above or below them on terrain, so long as they make a successful charge action." and "Keywords - Monstrous Creature and Titanic units can attack models on any level of terrain as long as they complete a successful charge action, measuring from the base of the model (or hull if it has no base) to the building edge."

I'm sure it's not perfect but GW can make the rules more refined as they need to, no doubt.

What about the wobbly model syndrome, you're allowed to end your movement half way up a wall in the outside, only you're not allowed to end your charge move on the outside and fight through the wall? Seems like one could allow the other, though I don't envy players keeping track of it and doing the measurements

In previous editions, WMS allowed you to remove a model from a wobbly position, but still required that the model could be placed in that position. It really only covered "well, it fits, but it might fall over". It didn't allow you to charge, take your model off the table, and claim to be in midair. Or to claim your Bloodthirster was in the middle of a room he didn't fit in.

torblind wrote:
What about the wobbly model syndrome, you're allowed to end your movement half way up a wall in the outside, only you're not allowed to end your charge move on the outside and fight through the wall? Seems like one could allow the other, though I don't envy players keeping track of it and doing the measurements

No no no that's not how wobbly model works in my area, a model must stand unsupported to be considered for wobbly model.
Models don't gain the ability to levitate just because it allows you to be in CC.

Wasn't there a discussion early in 8th about how a model that had let's say 2" move left when it reaches a wall could be said to continue 2" up, mid air, and continue from there next turn? Not saying I like it or endorse it. (I don't)