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I think its time for GW to release PDF rules. They can make their money with codex's but the rules, FAQ's and chapter approves are everywhere. They should just make the rules a free pdf so when they make changes they can incorporate all the changes and FAQ's into a new set of rules, it would be easy as well as the players basically tell GW what they don't understand and what isn't either accounted for or explained well in the rules, plus they could even just add FAQ's at the end of the movement page of the rules etc. They can't possibly make that much off of rule books. I'd love to see this happen, who alse would?

I think there's a pretty much identical thread to this somewhere about subscriptions and being able to update rules etc. I think consensus was very much split. There was a survey done as well a few days ago which massively favoured keeping stuff hardback.

Books are going to stay, no idea about profit GW gets - but its hobby with strong nostalgia factor - books are here to stay.

There is some movement towards free rules though - we got free basic rules, they try and update them more often - so living digital rule set is logical continuation of that process.

Dach wrote:
Books are going to stay, no idea about profit GW gets - but its hobby with strong nostalgia factor - books are here to stay.

There is some movement towards free rules though - we got free basic rules, they try and update them more often - so living digital rule set is logical continuation of that process.

Well I think they need to consolidate the rules some how so we aren't looking at multiple sources. If It costs money I wouldn't care as the I just thought making it a free PDF would be the easiest way for them to do it, as they can't keep releasing hardback/tablet editions of the rules. Its the lack of organisation that annoys me not really the cost as I collect all factions, so buying another book is kinda irrelevant to me considering the sheer amount of books I have to buy.

Aren’t the core rules already a free PDF? Pretty sure I downloaded them when 8th first came out. And FAQs are already free.

As to Indexes, Codexes, and Chapter Approved, Chapter Approved should not have corrections and point adjustments in them, those should be free via the Errata in FAQs. Having to pay a little the play a little is fine, but having to pay for the game designers corrections is criminally negligent. That’s why I buy the ebooks, the corrections are automatically updated at no cost.

SJ

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

Dach wrote:
Books are going to stay, no idea about profit GW gets - but its hobby with strong nostalgia factor - books are here to stay.

There is some movement towards free rules though - we got free basic rules, they try and update them more often - so living digital rule set is logical continuation of that process.

Well I think they need to consolidate the rules some how so we aren't looking at multiple sources. If It costs money I wouldn't care as the I just thought making it a free PDF would be the easiest way for them to do it, as they can't keep releasing hardback/tablet editions of the rules. Its the lack of organisation that annoys me not really the cost as I collect all factions, so buying another book is kinda irrelevant to me considering the sheer amount of books I have to buy.

Why they can't keep releasing? It gives them profit. And not all want PDF as only source of rules. For me physical book is LOT easier to find proper rules. Especially in 8th ed where you can need 4 books(before even considering rulebook) for all your rules.

You might have to use the Astra Militarum codex for your PDF army. Best of luck to you!

I think the core rules are pretty easily available. One thing I found with starting over with 8th was that all I really needed beyond the core rules was the detachment system. Having the unit cards in the box is great too but they really ought to be exactly the same as the codex data sheets.

Rules only PDFs would not undervalue codices and I think they would still sell, in either format. The books and epubs still are a wealth of information, but they do need new fluff I'll admit. People will always pay money for a shinier better product so a basic print job of the rules and your faction may do for some, most hobbyists will still want their preferences.

If GW stopped printing books you wouldn't see those savings passed on the the customer. They would just make more profit as the consumer spends that money on models. They wouldn't have to print books so they'd just continue making models as they are and they'd pocket that money. Moving away from print solves nothing and cheapens the hobby.

Anyways not to be long winded, but I can't really argue with this one based on the right to ownership vs access issue, since well... it's in the name 'free pdf' so...

I think the solution is pretty simple, but one which'll never happen.

GW can keep the codex releases, as a lot of people (myself included) vastly prefer a physical item, even if it's slowly errata'ed into obscurity. What they should then offer is solely the rules portion via PDF (which is updated with FAQ's, erratas/changes) for a much more reasonable price. One big issue I have with GW is their silly pricing. I won't pay the same or almost-the-same price for a PDF that I will for a physical copy. I think they should sell the "rules" portion for a much cheaper cost and they'd actually have a lot more sales.

At the very least, I would like to see them put up their old catalog as available as PDFs, like so many other companies have done.

For me, the best solution would be to make available print copies (choice for "deluxe" hardcover or softcover would be nice), print copies w/ a link or code for the PDF version, or the ability to buy straight-up digital versions.

Sort of like the movie industry, where you can get the DVD, Blu-Ray, Digital or a package with all three.

Yeah, for a company that is supposed to sell models first off, they sure make a lot of money on poorly conceived rules and rewrites of rules that were poorly conceived year in and out.

Oh, you’re talking about the Portable Document Format type of PDF, not the Planetary Defence Force type of PDF. My bad. Carry on!

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Oh, you’re talking about the Portable Document Format type of PDF, not the Planetary Defence Force type of PDF. My bad. Carry on!

That was my first thought, too, but Planets can’t really use ebooks to defend themselves ... nor can GW.

SJ

GW shouldn't release the rules for free. They're a for profit company and the best way for them to stay in business is to monetize their IP.

dkoz wrote:
GW shouldn't release the rules for free. They're a for profit company and the best way for them to stay in business is to monetize their IP.

You might want to spread this gospel to a number of other games which appear to be doing OK by releasing their rules for free, and making their money off the models...

And there's nothing stopping a company doing both, either - releasing a free bare-bones PDF alongside a pretty hardback book. The former can act as a hook to get someone interested in buying the latter.

 Dysartes wrote:

dkoz wrote:
GW shouldn't release the rules for free. They're a for profit company and the best way for them to stay in business is to monetize their IP.

You might want to spread this gospel to a number of other games which appear to be doing OK by releasing their rules for free, and making their money off the models...

And there's nothing stopping a company doing both, either - releasing a free bare-bones PDF alongside a pretty hardback book. The former can act as a hook to get someone interested in buying the latter.

Those other games maybe doing well but GW is still king and a business whos model has taken them this far. Also they're not just a model company like so many of those others. Why do people hate paying for things not everything should be free in fact most free stuff really isn't worth having. I can't understand all these fools hating a company making a profit for what they produce, it's a stupid mind set that seems to be infecting so many these days.

 Dysartes wrote:

dkoz wrote:
GW shouldn't release the rules for free. They're a for profit company and the best way for them to stay in business is to monetize their IP.

You might want to spread this gospel to a number of other games which appear to be doing OK by releasing their rules for free, and making their money off the models...

And there's nothing stopping a company doing both, either - releasing a free bare-bones PDF alongside a pretty hardback book. The former can act as a hook to get someone interested in buying the latter.

name those games. ohh and if any of thsoe games are produced by a small 5 man studio, they don't count. they also don't count if they are a newer company whose staff consist of people working as a passion product.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

dkoz wrote:
GW shouldn't release the rules for free. They're a for profit company and the best way for them to stay in business is to monetize their IP.

You might want to spread this gospel to a number of other games which appear to be doing OK by releasing their rules for free, and making their money off the models...

And there's nothing stopping a company doing both, either - releasing a free bare-bones PDF alongside a pretty hardback book. The former can act as a hook to get someone interested in buying the latter.

name those games. ohh and if any of thsoe games are produced by a small 5 man studio, they don't count. they also don't count if they are a newer company whose staff consist of people working as a passion product.

Privateer press? Second largest miniature game company around. Just released the rules for their new edition of Monsterpocalypse for free.

now quick turn around and find a reason that doesn't count so you can continue thinking what you think.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

dkoz wrote:
GW shouldn't release the rules for free. They're a for profit company and the best way for them to stay in business is to monetize their IP.

You might want to spread this gospel to a number of other games which appear to be doing OK by releasing their rules for free, and making their money off the models...

And there's nothing stopping a company doing both, either - releasing a free bare-bones PDF alongside a pretty hardback book. The former can act as a hook to get someone interested in buying the latter.

name those games. ohh and if any of thsoe games are produced by a small 5 man studio, they don't count. they also don't count if they are a newer company whose staff consist of people working as a passion product.

Pathfinder by Paizo, while not a tabletop company, releases all their stuff for free as well. Wouldn't call them a 5-man studio.

Warlord also has their base rules for free for Beyond the Gates of Antares and several other of their game systems as well

You can download Fantasy Flights rules for free (for ANY of their games) and with X-Wing 2.0, all cards will be in an app, that as far as I am aware, is for free.

Would you care for any other examples?

 Stormonu wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

dkoz wrote:
GW shouldn't release the rules for free. They're a for profit company and the best way for them to stay in business is to monetize their IP.

You might want to spread this gospel to a number of other games which appear to be doing OK by releasing their rules for free, and making their money off the models...

And there's nothing stopping a company doing both, either - releasing a free bare-bones PDF alongside a pretty hardback book. The former can act as a hook to get someone interested in buying the latter.

name those games. ohh and if any of thsoe games are produced by a small 5 man studio, they don't count. they also don't count if they are a newer company whose staff consist of people working as a passion product.

Pathfinder by Paizo, while not a tabletop company, releases all their stuff for free as well. Wouldn't call them a 5-man studio.

Warlord also has their base rules for free for Beyond the Gates of Antares and several other of their game systems as well

You can download Fantasy Flights rules for free (for ANY of their games) and with X-Wing 2.0, all cards will be in an app, that as far as I am aware, is for free.

Would you care for any other examples?

\and both companies you named have a much deeper catalogue of game types then GW does, producing LCGs RPGs etc in addition to mini games (in fact I suspect Pazio is better known among gamers on a whole for Pathfinder) so there are differant market facts there.

Ohh and Pazio and FFG both charge for their RPG products,

 Stormonu wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

dkoz wrote:
GW shouldn't release the rules for free. They're a for profit company and the best way for them to stay in business is to monetize their IP.

You might want to spread this gospel to a number of other games which appear to be doing OK by releasing their rules for free, and making their money off the models...

And there's nothing stopping a company doing both, either - releasing a free bare-bones PDF alongside a pretty hardback book. The former can act as a hook to get someone interested in buying the latter.

name those games. ohh and if any of thsoe games are produced by a small 5 man studio, they don't count. they also don't count if they are a newer company whose staff consist of people working as a passion product.

Pathfinder by Paizo, while not a tabletop company, releases all their stuff for free as well. Wouldn't call them a 5-man studio.

Warlord also has their base rules for free for Beyond the Gates of Antares and several other of their game systems as well

You can download Fantasy Flights rules for free (for ANY of their games) and with X-Wing 2.0, all cards will be in an app, that as far as I am aware, is for free.

Would you care for any other examples?

I don't know what Pathfinder game you play but anything I've seen from Paizo is at least $30.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

dkoz wrote:
GW shouldn't release the rules for free. They're a for profit company and the best way for them to stay in business is to monetize their IP.

You might want to spread this gospel to a number of other games which appear to be doing OK by releasing their rules for free, and making their money off the models...

And there's nothing stopping a company doing both, either - releasing a free bare-bones PDF alongside a pretty hardback book. The former can act as a hook to get someone interested in buying the latter.

name those games. ohh and if any of thsoe games are produced by a small 5 man studio, they don't count. they also don't count if they are a newer company whose staff consist of people working as a passion product.

Pathfinder by Paizo, while not a tabletop company, releases all their stuff for free as well. Wouldn't call them a 5-man studio.

Warlord also has their base rules for free for Beyond the Gates of Antares and several other of their game systems as well

You can download Fantasy Flights rules for free (for ANY of their games) and with X-Wing 2.0, all cards will be in an app, that as far as I am aware, is for free.

Would you care for any other examples?

\and both companies you named have a much deeper catalogue of game types then GW does, producing LCGs RPGs etc in addition to mini games (in fact I suspect Pazio is better known among gamers on a whole for Pathfinder) so there are differant market facts there.

Ohh and Pazio and FFG both charge for their RPG products,

Yeah, keep moving those goalposts, you'll be able to discount everyone eventually.

Yes, they do charge if you want the printed books, but YOU DON'T HAVE TO PAY IF YOU DON'T WANT TO, if you're willing to go electronic. That electronic link is 100% legal, and supported.

 Stormonu wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

dkoz wrote:
GW shouldn't release the rules for free. They're a for profit company and the best way for them to stay in business is to monetize their IP.

You might want to spread this gospel to a number of other games which appear to be doing OK by releasing their rules for free, and making their money off the models...

And there's nothing stopping a company doing both, either - releasing a free bare-bones PDF alongside a pretty hardback book. The former can act as a hook to get someone interested in buying the latter.

name those games. ohh and if any of thsoe games are produced by a small 5 man studio, they don't count. they also don't count if they are a newer company whose staff consist of people working as a passion product.

Pathfinder by Paizo, while not a tabletop company, releases all their stuff for free as well. Wouldn't call them a 5-man studio.

Warlord also has their base rules for free for Beyond the Gates of Antares and several other of their game systems as well

You can download Fantasy Flights rules for free (for ANY of their games) and with X-Wing 2.0, all cards will be in an app, that as far as I am aware, is for free.

Would you care for any other examples?

\and both companies you named have a much deeper catalogue of game types then GW does, producing LCGs RPGs etc in addition to mini games (in fact I suspect Pazio is better known among gamers on a whole for Pathfinder) so there are differant market facts there.

Ohh and Pazio and FFG both charge for their RPG products,

Yeah, keep moving those goalposts, you'll be able to discount everyone eventually.

Yes, they do charge if you want the printed books, but YOU DON'T HAVE TO PAY IF YOU DON'T WANT TO, if you're willing to go electronic. That electronic link is 100% legal, and supported.

And doesn't have ALL the rules. the SRD is more then just free rules, the SRD is whats "open source" ever wondered why the pathfinder monster manual never has had a beholder?

yeah the SRD is the reason, if GW followed that path, a SRD would include the rules for Tac marines, assault marines and devesator marines, but if you wanted ohh say... TWC and Wulfen? gotta buy codex space wolves.

Goal post moved.

SJ

Free, electronic rules will happen the minute someone in forecasting sits down and works out that profits will increase by offering free rules which drive sales on other lines vs. selling books as your main source of rules.

Until that is true (and that is if, not when - it may never actually be true that the lost revenue from selling books would be made up by sales from other things) then it won't happen. Comparisons to other businesses are meaningless, the GW model will change when they expect it to more successfully make money, and not before.

Personally I wouldn't expect it to change - I suspect the crowd who really will not buy books is vanishingly small compared to the people who will buy at least one codex + rulebook + supplement/Chapter Approved every edition, and that selling those books is an easy more-or-less guaranteed revenue stream for them which wouldn't be adequately replaced by greater sales of models (which aren't a one for one replacement anyway, since they'll have different costs and profit margins associated).

 Corrode wrote:
Free, electronic rules will happen the minute someone in forecasting sits down and works out that profits will increase by offering free rules which drive sales on other lines vs. selling books as your main source of rules.

Until that is true (and that is if, not when - it may never actually be true that the lost revenue from selling books would be made up by sales from other things) then it won't happen. Comparisons to other businesses are meaningless, the GW model will change when they expect it to more successfully make money, and not before.

Personally I wouldn't expect it to change - I suspect the crowd who really will not buy books is vanishingly small compared to the people who will buy at least one codex + rulebook + supplement/Chapter Approved every edition, and that selling those books is an easy more-or-less guaranteed revenue stream for them which wouldn't be adequately replaced by greater sales of models (which aren't a one for one replacement anyway, since they'll have different costs and profit margins associated).

40k is... essentially the "Gateway drug" to wargaming. it's the game little jimmy picks up off the shelf and says he wants. a lotta the other wargames mentioned aren't like that, they sell more to people who already wargame. a rack of minis in a store means nothing to a 10 year old kit if there's not handy box with the rules, the dice etc there for him to pick up

Rules fixes and new core rules should not be soled. Fun new optional rules etc should be pay to play through chapter approved. Rule fixes, errata and FAQs should be a free download. Where I think GW are missing a trick on balancing this is. Rule fixes and errata should be also available to buy as a sheet of pre cut, easy peel transfers that fit perfectly onto the page of rule book or codex they are updating. This way we can keep our beloved hard back and keep it up to date at a minimal cost. Or for free if you want to download and do the work yourself.

Vim

I think these days, the core rules and unit rules should be free. The confusion comes from what really constitutes these though. Like, now the rules of individual units come in their sets and that’s good. But in both AoS and 40k you’ll need to buy an extra book (or two) to get the full set of rules and that’s extra. And they can go out of date very quickly. So you need to ask yourself, is that ok? I honestly don’t know.

 Corrode wrote:
Free, electronic rules will happen the minute someone in forecasting sits down and works out that profits will increase by offering free rules which drive sales on other lines vs. selling books as your main source of rules.

Until that is true (and that is if, not when - it may never actually be true that the lost revenue from selling books would be made up by sales from other things) then it won't happen. Comparisons to other businesses are meaningless, the GW model will change when they expect it to more successfully make money, and not before.

Personally I wouldn't expect it to change - I suspect the crowd who really will not buy books is vanishingly small compared to the people who will buy at least one codex + rulebook + supplement/Chapter Approved every edition, and that selling those books is an easy more-or-less guaranteed revenue stream for them which wouldn't be adequately replaced by greater sales of models (which aren't a one for one replacement anyway, since they'll have different costs and profit margins associated).

GW is almost there now. 8E's base rules are available as a PDF. You can get datasheets with the minis, though you still have to pay for that at the moment. AoS is a little further along, it's rules and the Warscrolls are available as a PDF. GW just has to make that last just to "realize" they're making their core money off the models and the datasheets are simply a gateway to get players to buy more minis.

 Stormonu wrote:

 Corrode wrote:
Free, electronic rules will happen the minute someone in forecasting sits down and works out that profits will increase by offering free rules which drive sales on other lines vs. selling books as your main source of rules.

Until that is true (and that is if, not when - it may never actually be true that the lost revenue from selling books would be made up by sales from other things) then it won't happen. Comparisons to other businesses are meaningless, the GW model will change when they expect it to more successfully make money, and not before.

Personally I wouldn't expect it to change - I suspect the crowd who really will not buy books is vanishingly small compared to the people who will buy at least one codex + rulebook + supplement/Chapter Approved every edition, and that selling those books is an easy more-or-less guaranteed revenue stream for them which wouldn't be adequately replaced by greater sales of models (which aren't a one for one replacement anyway, since they'll have different costs and profit margins associated).

GW is almost there now. 8E's base rules are available as a PDF. You can get datasheets with the minis, though you still have to pay for that at the moment. AoS is a little further along, it's rules and the Warscrolls are available as a PDF. GW just has to make that last just to "realize" they're making their core money off the models and the datasheets are simply a gateway to get players to buy more minis.

really the only thing you need the codex for are chapter tactics, stratigiums, psykic powers etc. I can go out, buy a squad of primaris Marines for myself and a buddy, print off some rules online and play with those, codexes contain the "advanced rules" and I think paying for rules beyond the "quick start" seems fair to me