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Made in us
Sniveling Snotling



UK

Unless a model can FLY, making a charge or fighting against a flyer with the Airborne rule is usually not allowed. However, I can't see anything to disallow a Heroic Intervention, Pile In, or Consolidation move. Of course no fighting would be allowed, but the flyer would need to fall back in the following turn.

I imagine that the rules writers didn't intend for this to happen, and I don't think it's realistic for infantry to be able to affect a flyer in that way, but I think this it is permitted with the rules as written. Can anybody see any reason why not?


Edit: I originally said that the flyer falling back would have a -1 to hit penalty when shooting in the following turn, but that was a mistake - I was confusing it with the Ultramarines fall back rule.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/09/13 20:10:24


 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut







This is hilarious, and I for SURE will abuse this the next time I get the chance! Extra movement for characters is always appreciated, which is what this will almost always end up as.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
At least, until it gets FAQ'd away

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/13 12:53:24


 Galef wrote:
If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
 
   
Made in de
Dakka Veteran




Why would a flyer have -1 to shooting after falling back?
   
Made in gb
Waaagh! Ork Warboss






Sunny Side Up wrote:
Why would a flyer have -1 to shooting after falling back?
It wouldn't (Unless it's firing Heavy weapons).

Also, thanks for a new entry to my signature.

+++++There are currently NINETY TWO (92) documents required to play Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++
Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
Because some people get their knickers in a twist, I'll list these RaW 'oddities' in my sig. Sadly GW's promise of fixing their broken rules has itself been broken. Zoom in to read them.
RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy; "minimum" ranges don't work; the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit; the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously; Khârn punches himself in the face if he's not near some meatshields; Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list, Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12"; Spore Mines have an infinite range; Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything, only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad; T'au have access to stackable Ignore Wounds (albeit against Mortal Wounds only); the T'au Early Warning Override Support System only works if a unit is "teleporting to the battlefield", not just arriving mid-battle; you can only ever use the Deathwatch Teleportarium Stratagem "once", and then never again in any battle after you use it; if a model splits fire, each weapon must target a different unit; a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip can absorb an infinite amount of damage via Shieldwall between the time they die and the time they fight; Codex Leman Russ's can take an infinite amount of Hunter-Killer Missiles, Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers; Imothekh's 'Lord of the Storm' ability hits the "target unit" twice; "Airborne" units can't be charged by non-FLY units, but can be Heroically Intervened into, piled into, or consolidated into just fine by non-FLY units; Wave Serpents cannot be legally charged at by any model with a standard base; Slab Shields, along with the 'Take Cover!' stratagem no longer have any effect; and vehicles that are "slain" by a special effect do not trigger the "Explodes" ability; Taking any Forge World Space Marine Named Characters denies the use of a Chapter Tactic; and Vectored Manoeuvring Thrusters may be used to move within 1" of an enemy unit during the Movement Phase and does not benefit from FLY.
--- Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities --- Stylus CSS theme for DakkaDakka forums to hide black avatar background and fully hide ignored users. --- Userscript to add a button to open all "[First Unread]" links on the page, hides the "[Blog View]" links, and adds a "Subscribed Threads" link to forum pages. 
   
Made in de
Dakka Veteran




Sure. But if it has (and cannot ignore the modifier) of heavy weapons, it would do so anyways after moving the minimum movement required for flyers.

If it was in some sort of hover mode, it would lose the airborne rule and could be charged and fought (and Heroically intervened on) by non-flying units just like any other skimmer.
   
Made in us
Sniveling Snotling



UK

All this time I've been thinking that a FLY model suffers a -1 to hit penalty when shooting after falling back, but I can't find it in the rules now. I think I have been confusing it with the Ultramarines fall back rule!
   
Made in de
Dakka Veteran




It's still a fun loophole for extra movement. Especially for something like super-slow Space Wolves Terminator Characters that only move 4" normally but suddenly ride the slipstream of a nearby supersonic Eldar Flyer for 6" HI towards an objective or something.

Super rare, but probably hilarious, if you can pull it off.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/13 13:46:01


 
   
Made in us
Awesome Autarch





Dallas area, TX

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Also, thanks for a new entry to my signature.
You do know that there is a character limit to sigs right? Probably about half of those are not visible to the rest of us. The last one I can see is the "Tyrant Guard with lash whip can absorb...."
Which is suspect was a really long time ago. So everything you've added since then is cut off

Literally nothing for 2018 is showing. Just sayin'

-

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/09/13 13:55:00


   
Made in gb
Waaagh! Ork Warboss






 Galef wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
Also, thanks for a new entry to my signature.
You do know that there is a character limit to sigs right? Probably about half of those are not visible to the rest of us.
Just sayin'
It shows fully to me on a 1080p screen, which is what I assume the standard is. If you need a full list PMed I'd be happy to do so.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/13 13:53:09


+++++There are currently NINETY TWO (92) documents required to play Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++
Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
Because some people get their knickers in a twist, I'll list these RaW 'oddities' in my sig. Sadly GW's promise of fixing their broken rules has itself been broken. Zoom in to read them.
RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy; "minimum" ranges don't work; the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit; the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously; Khârn punches himself in the face if he's not near some meatshields; Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list, Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12"; Spore Mines have an infinite range; Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything, only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad; T'au have access to stackable Ignore Wounds (albeit against Mortal Wounds only); the T'au Early Warning Override Support System only works if a unit is "teleporting to the battlefield", not just arriving mid-battle; you can only ever use the Deathwatch Teleportarium Stratagem "once", and then never again in any battle after you use it; if a model splits fire, each weapon must target a different unit; a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip can absorb an infinite amount of damage via Shieldwall between the time they die and the time they fight; Codex Leman Russ's can take an infinite amount of Hunter-Killer Missiles, Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers; Imothekh's 'Lord of the Storm' ability hits the "target unit" twice; "Airborne" units can't be charged by non-FLY units, but can be Heroically Intervened into, piled into, or consolidated into just fine by non-FLY units; Wave Serpents cannot be legally charged at by any model with a standard base; Slab Shields, along with the 'Take Cover!' stratagem no longer have any effect; and vehicles that are "slain" by a special effect do not trigger the "Explodes" ability; Taking any Forge World Space Marine Named Characters denies the use of a Chapter Tactic; and Vectored Manoeuvring Thrusters may be used to move within 1" of an enemy unit during the Movement Phase and does not benefit from FLY.
--- Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities --- Stylus CSS theme for DakkaDakka forums to hide black avatar background and fully hide ignored users. --- Userscript to add a button to open all "[First Unread]" links on the page, hides the "[Blog View]" links, and adds a "Subscribed Threads" link to forum pages. 
   
Made in us
Awesome Autarch





Dallas area, TX

Yeah, I'm on a 1920 x 1080 res screen too. Nothing from 2018 is there.

I'm also curious how you can even put that much in your sig. Dakka won't give me even half that amount of characters
What is in my sig right now is close to max and I am not allowed anymore

-

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/13 14:14:34


   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





It's the BCB exception. Every rules forum has been pre-programmed with it since HTML's initial release in 1993.

(And yes, I can see the sig with the new addition )

 Galef wrote:
If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
 
   
Made in us
Awesome Autarch





Dallas area, TX

Then it's probably something to do with my view settings on Dakka. All the same, I'll keep them as-is.
I don't want to see a page full of the same 100+ links every time I scroll past a BCB post. (no offense, that's just too excessive for me)

-

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/09/13 16:31:21


   
Made in gb
Waaagh! Ork Warboss






I want to just point out that while you can HI, Pile in or Consolidate into an "Airborne" unit with a non-FLY unit, you still can't attack it. The only use this has is to force it to make a Fall Back move, thus denying it a (usually) 20" advance.

+++++There are currently NINETY TWO (92) documents required to play Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++
Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
Because some people get their knickers in a twist, I'll list these RaW 'oddities' in my sig. Sadly GW's promise of fixing their broken rules has itself been broken. Zoom in to read them.
RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy; "minimum" ranges don't work; the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit; the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously; Khârn punches himself in the face if he's not near some meatshields; Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list, Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12"; Spore Mines have an infinite range; Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything, only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad; T'au have access to stackable Ignore Wounds (albeit against Mortal Wounds only); the T'au Early Warning Override Support System only works if a unit is "teleporting to the battlefield", not just arriving mid-battle; you can only ever use the Deathwatch Teleportarium Stratagem "once", and then never again in any battle after you use it; if a model splits fire, each weapon must target a different unit; a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip can absorb an infinite amount of damage via Shieldwall between the time they die and the time they fight; Codex Leman Russ's can take an infinite amount of Hunter-Killer Missiles, Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers; Imothekh's 'Lord of the Storm' ability hits the "target unit" twice; "Airborne" units can't be charged by non-FLY units, but can be Heroically Intervened into, piled into, or consolidated into just fine by non-FLY units; Wave Serpents cannot be legally charged at by any model with a standard base; Slab Shields, along with the 'Take Cover!' stratagem no longer have any effect; and vehicles that are "slain" by a special effect do not trigger the "Explodes" ability; Taking any Forge World Space Marine Named Characters denies the use of a Chapter Tactic; and Vectored Manoeuvring Thrusters may be used to move within 1" of an enemy unit during the Movement Phase and does not benefit from FLY.
--- Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities --- Stylus CSS theme for DakkaDakka forums to hide black avatar background and fully hide ignored users. --- Userscript to add a button to open all "[First Unread]" links on the page, hides the "[Blog View]" links, and adds a "Subscribed Threads" link to forum pages. 
   
Made in us
Sniveling Snotling



UK

Well, free extra movement can also sometimes be useful, as pointed out already.

Another (very niche) application: if an airborne unit is likely to want to go to hover mode in the following turn to fire heavy weapons without penalty, this forces it to move anyway,

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/13 16:54:21


 
   
Made in us
Clousseau





East Bay, Ca, US

However, Skarbrand flat out kills flyers that can't hover after HI, because he has a rule that you can't fall back from combat with him. Which means, since a flyer cannot make its minimum move distance it is removed.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/09/13 18:13:35


 Galas wrote:
I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you

Bharring wrote:
He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
 
   
Made in de
Dakka Veteran




Maybe. But since you HI is in your opponent's turn and Skarbrand cannot actually smash the flyer, you'd be forced to have Skarbrand sitting there a full turn of yours, not doing anything, just to have the flyer roll that Ld check.

In most situations, you'd probably want to use Skarbrand for something in your turn.

Question would be, can Skarbrand consolidate into a Flyer after killing something else? Now we're talking.
   
Made in fi
Decrepit Dakkanaut





 Yarium wrote:
At least, until it gets FAQ'd away


If it gets faq'ed out. After all we are talking about company that after a year+ hasn't faq'ed assault weapons to actually work RAW...

“Nothing has a definite nature, so people cannot be purely evil. Even so-called evil people will aspire to follow a moral path when they feel a sense of community.” – Kukai

11772 pts(along with lots of unpainted unsorted stuff)
3225 pts
5150 pts
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Made in nz
Regular Dakkanaut




Sunny Side Up wrote:
Maybe. But since you HI is in your opponent's turn and Skarbrand cannot actually smash the flyer, you'd be forced to have Skarbrand sitting there a full turn of yours, not doing anything, just to have the flyer roll that Ld check.

In most situations, you'd probably want to use Skarbrand for something in your turn.

Question would be, can Skarbrand consolidate into a Flyer after killing something else? Now we're talking.


Consolidation doesn't count as a charge move. So i would say fair game.

Visually it looks funny as a kamikaze pilot see's Skarbrand and want to ram his plane into his face because of how angry the pilot got
   
Made in gb
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets





Cardiff

tneva82 wrote:
 Yarium wrote:
At least, until it gets FAQ'd away


If it gets faq'ed out. After all we are talking about company that after a year+ hasn't faq'ed assault weapons to actually work RAW...


Because that’s not a legitimate issue... jussayin’. A few people bleat on about it online but no one actually has any issue understanding that rule in games. Stoppppp bringing stuff like that up... it’s been a whole year... make a blog or a sig if you need but that rule is honestly not an issue as written for any wargamer.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in fi
Decrepit Dakkanaut





But it shows GW's attitude to the game. They don't automatically FAQ or errata things that needs to be FAQ'ed/errata'ed. Thus this can be left unanswered forever.

GW does not aim for clean, logical and balanced rules. Never have, never will. Expecting any of those from GW is just smoking pipe.

“Nothing has a definite nature, so people cannot be purely evil. Even so-called evil people will aspire to follow a moral path when they feel a sense of community.” – Kukai

11772 pts(along with lots of unpainted unsorted stuff)
3225 pts
5150 pts
~3200 pts Knights
 
   
Made in gb
Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets





Cardiff

And my point is it doesn’t need to be. Even anyone bringing it up as an ‘issue’ admits the intent is abundantly clear and it’s therefore playable. No patch needed.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Yarium wrote:
It's the BCB exception.

Don't you mean...the Special Snowflake BCB exception?
   
Made in us
Reading a Book in the Tower of Prospero





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

 Marmatag wrote:
However, Skarbrand flat out kills flyers that can't hover after HI, because he has a rule that you can't fall back from combat with him. Which means, since a flyer cannot make its minimum move distance it is removed.



So...wait... are you saying that DE wyches (troopers) can consolidate/pile-in (Succubus can HI) an Airborn unit? They have a rule that you roll off whether you can fall back or not.

Damn, that's one way to destroy Airborne units that cannot hover! Although, highly situational as you'd need a legal target to charge into in the first place that's within consolidate/pile-in/HI range.

6000
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!

4000

∞ Chaos Daemons and CSM


 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




 whembly wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
However, Skarbrand flat out kills flyers that can't hover after HI, because he has a rule that you can't fall back from combat with him. Which means, since a flyer cannot make its minimum move distance it is removed.



So...wait... are you saying that DE wyches (troopers) can consolidate/pile-in (Succubus can HI) an Airborn unit? They have a rule that you roll off whether you can fall back or not.

Damn, that's one way to destroy Airborne units that cannot hover! Although, highly situational as you'd need a legal target to charge into in the first place that's within consolidate/pile-in/HI range.


That only works against INFANTRY keyworded units IIRC. I don't think there are any that are also pure fliers.
   
Made in us
Reading a Book in the Tower of Prospero





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

Sterling191 wrote:
 whembly wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
However, Skarbrand flat out kills flyers that can't hover after HI, because he has a rule that you can't fall back from combat with him. Which means, since a flyer cannot make its minimum move distance it is removed.



So...wait... are you saying that DE wyches (troopers) can consolidate/pile-in (Succubus can HI) an Airborn unit? They have a rule that you roll off whether you can fall back or not.

Damn, that's one way to destroy Airborne units that cannot hover! Although, highly situational as you'd need a legal target to charge into in the first place that's within consolidate/pile-in/HI range.


That only works against INFANTRY keyworded units IIRC. I don't think there are any that are also pure fliers.

Bah... you are correct.

6000
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!

4000

∞ Chaos Daemons and CSM


 
   
Made in us
Tough-as-Nails Ork Boy






I mean this is potentially devastating as the flyer could be placed 1.1" behind a unit your charging in the follwing charge phase and the models closer to the plane than your charging models would be denied the ability to pile in and fight.

3000
1500
2200 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




Sterling191 wrote:
 whembly wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
However, Skarbrand flat out kills flyers that can't hover after HI, because he has a rule that you can't fall back from combat with him. Which means, since a flyer cannot make its minimum move distance it is removed.



So...wait... are you saying that DE wyches (troopers) can consolidate/pile-in (Succubus can HI) an Airborn unit? They have a rule that you roll off whether you can fall back or not.

Damn, that's one way to destroy Airborne units that cannot hover! Although, highly situational as you'd need a legal target to charge into in the first place that's within consolidate/pile-in/HI range.


That only works against INFANTRY keyworded units IIRC. I don't think there are any that are also pure fliers.


You know what doesn't have such a restriction?

Skarbrand and Fiends of Slaanesh.
   
Made in de
Big Mek in Kustom Dragster with Soopa-Gun





 BaconCatBug wrote:
I want to just point out that while you can HI, Pile in or Consolidate into an "Airborne" unit with a non-FLY unit, you still can't attack it. The only use this has is to force it to make a Fall Back move, thus denying it a (usually) 20" advance.


The only use? You obviously lack creativity.

The next time a hemlock gets too close to my characters I will pull a heroic intervention on them, and then charge my DP into it without suffering the deadly overwatch from their flamers.

Drager wrote:
I'd heard there would be a clatter, then perhaps a hiss, but that's not what it's like. We'd all been told that these things lurked in vents and crevices, that they could sneak up on a man no matter how alert, but that just wasn't what happened. We saw them coming, well, we heard them first, an ear-splitting boom as they accelerated across the plain. They must have been 2 miles away when we heard the crack, but we barely had time to lift our weapons before they were on us and then... past us. Running faster than I could follow. They didn't attack, didn't even try and it was then, as the whole platoon stared after them that a dread crept through me and I turned to see that which they had been running from.

-Infantryman Collins, 5th Umbra Rifles
 
   
Made in us
Awesome Autarch





Dallas area, TX

 Hades wrote:
I mean this is potentially devastating as the flyer could be placed 1.1" behind a unit your charging in the follwing charge phase and the models closer to the plane than your charging models would be denied the ability to pile in and fight.
I mean, they could still Pile in, they just wouldn't be able to fight. And if they choose to Pile in, they'd have to do so AWAY from your charging unit.
You could use this to mitigate how many enemy models could fight back after you charge them, although it's probably a bit situational as they can simply remove casualties that are closer to your Flyer.

-

   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




weaver9 wrote:
Sterling191 wrote:
 whembly wrote:
 Marmatag wrote:
However, Skarbrand flat out kills flyers that can't hover after HI, because he has a rule that you can't fall back from combat with him. Which means, since a flyer cannot make its minimum move distance it is removed.



So...wait... are you saying that DE wyches (troopers) can consolidate/pile-in (Succubus can HI) an Airborn unit? They have a rule that you roll off whether you can fall back or not.

Damn, that's one way to destroy Airborne units that cannot hover! Although, highly situational as you'd need a legal target to charge into in the first place that's within consolidate/pile-in/HI range.


That only works against INFANTRY keyworded units IIRC. I don't think there are any that are also pure fliers.


You know what doesn't have such a restriction?

Skarbrand and Fiends of Slaanesh.

No, but Fiends don't affect units with FLY.
   
 
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