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If you use webway infiltration on some rubric marines they can't arrive til turn 2 unless it's in your own deployment zone. If you bring them down in your own deployment zone at the end of your first movement phase can you then use the dark matter crystal to move them again anywhere on the battlefield 9" away from an enemy model? Essentially giving your rubrics a turn 1 deepstrike anywhere

ravenerioli wrote:
If you use webway infiltration on some rubric marines they can't arrive til turn 2 unless it's in your own deployment zone. If you bring them down in your own deployment zone at the end of your first movement phase can you then use the dark matter crystal to move them again anywhere on the battlefield 9" away from an enemy model? Essentially giving your rubrics a turn 1 deepstrike anywhere

No, because Dark Matter Crystal sets them up mid phase, thus they are Reinforcements, thus are limited to their own deployment zone. https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/756986.page#9979382

The restriction to arriving in your own deployment zone is for units placed in tactical reserves from the big faq.

Dark matter crystal, gate, da jump, etc are not being used on units that were deployed to tactical reserves so rules covering units arriving from tactical reserves(the big faq rule on your own deployment zone) does not apply to them.

blaktoof wrote:
The restriction to arriving in your own deployment zone is for units placed in tactical reserves from the big faq.

Not true in the slightest. Firstly, there is no such thing as "placed in tactical reserves". Secondly, the rule applies to ANY units arriving as Reinforcements, which both RaW and by FAQ includes "teleport" effects.

The rule specifically states it modifies tactical reserves.

Units using the gate, dark matter crystal, etc do not go I to tactical reserves and then get placed back out of it. There are no actual rules or stating that they do.

The heading of the rule you are quoting is Tactical reserves. It's is a rulefor units deployed to tactical reserves. Is an unit that starts on the table in tactical reserves?

blaktoof wrote:
The rule specifically states it modifies tactical reserves.

Units using the gate, dark matter crystal, etc do not go I to tactical reserves and then get placed back out of it. There are no actual rules or stating that they do.

The heading of the rule you are quoting is Tactical reserves. It's is a rulefor units deployed to tactical reserves. Is an unit that starts on the table in tactical reserves?

Please, show me any rule on a units datasheet that says they are "deployed to tactical reserves". Page number and Book title please.

The beta rule currently says "Furthermore, in matched play games, any unit that arrives on the battlefield during a player’s first turn must be deployed wholly within the controlling player’s deployment zone (even if its ability would normally let it be set up anywhere)." Dark Matter crystal lets the unit "be set up anywhere", thus is restricted by the rule, because the unit is "arriv[ing] on the battlefield" as reinforcements as stated by RaW and FAQ.

Gw specifically stated that rules such as the Da Jump psychic power can be used to bypass the turn 1 deployment zone restriction. Not sure whose argument that helps.

It would help if you would post the rule in question in its entirety so that it can be interpreted better for those who do not know what it does exactly.

mhalko1 wrote:
Gw specifically stated that rules such as the Da Jump psychic power can be used to bypass the turn 1 deployment zone restriction.

Can you please show me where in the Rulebooks, Codexes or FAQ/Errata for those books this "specific statement" is made? I have read them all and cannot seem to find it.

The beta rules you are quoting is under the title for what it is a rule for.

That title, from the big faq is...

Tactical reserves.

The big faq errated tactical reserves to that text instead of the text in the brb. The rule you are quoting are rules only found under tactical reserves.



Further from the same big faq if you read the errata before it specifically states tactical reserves:

"The ability to arrive on the battlefield mid-game has always been powerful, enabling units ..., and so during the first battle round, such units can only be set up within their own deployment
zone."

So I realize you are ignoring the actual title of the rules you are qouting, which is Tactical Reserves, to make your argument because then you can apply it to anything and make your invalid point valid.

Given the above actual verbatim from the same big faq, which you seem to not have read..., It applies to tactical reserves, tactical reserves allows units to arrive mid game(past deployment), and it affects units in tactical reserves.

If you read the BRB for matched play mission it will tell you how tactical reserves works- units that can be setup somewhere other than the battlefield/table. if you see on a datasheet an unit can be setup somewhere else during deployment, regardless of where that somewhere else is, according to the brb that is tactical reserves.

The big faq erratts for tactical reserves applies to tactical reserves.

For people who have a hard time with that there is a large block of text before that wherein the people writing the rules tell us it applies to those units in tactical reserves that arrive to the table mid game.

Did an unit of tzangors arrive to the table mid game or at deployment if it was deployed to the table?

If it arrived at deployment then it can use dark matter crystal turn 1 to go places outside of the deployment zone but with the limitations of dark matter crystal, because the big faq rules for tactical reserves do not apply to it.

If it did not arrive to the table during deployment it likely arrived midgame and is tactical reserves.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

mhalko1 wrote:
Gw specifically stated that rules such as the Da Jump psychic power can be used to bypass the turn 1 deployment zone restriction.

Can you please show me where in the Rulebooks, Codexes or FAQ/Errata for those books this "specific statement" is made? I have read them all and cannot seem to find it.

It's not in any formal rules source. The community team released it as a big picture with the comment "we spoke with the designers."

So, it does not exist in a formal rules capacity, but, in any tournament, it is the rule. GW really dropped the ball on releasing that specific errata.

 Marmatag wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

mhalko1 wrote:
Gw specifically stated that rules such as the Da Jump psychic power can be used to bypass the turn 1 deployment zone restriction.

Can you please show me where in the Rulebooks, Codexes or FAQ/Errata for those books this "specific statement" is made? I have read them all and cannot seem to find it.

It's not in any formal rules source. The community team released it as a big picture with the comment "we spoke with the designers."

So, it does not exist in a formal rules capacity, but, in any tournament, it is the rule. GW really dropped the ball on releasing that specific errata.

I see. If I am understanding you correctly, you're saying that things not in the rulebook are rules. If I made a gif saying "People with names beginning with B automatically win." would you consider that rules too? Also, saying "any tournament" is a misnomer because I am running a tournament right now and that is not the case, so you're provably wrong. Also, also, Tournament House rules have no bearing on what the actual rules are.

@blaktoof The name of a rule is irrelevant, what matters is what the rule says. I quoted what the rule says, so please stop trying to appeal to authority and instead argue in good faith.

@baconcatbug. I see ignoring written rules allows for your invalid rule to exist, therefore you will ignore the written rules and the officially published commentary on said written rule.

Shooting says I compare the weapons stength to the targets roughness and make a roll, obviously I can make that roll during deployment despite it being a rule for the shooting phase.

Show permission to apply rules for tactical reserves to units not in tactical reserves(deployed somewhere other than the table during deployment) or a rule stating that rules text under the title of the rule default apply to everything outside of the title or you have no valid point.

It comes down to GW having made it known so that if anybody wants to play it RAI then they can do so. To fix it by RAW they actually need to get around to FAQing their Big FAQ.

blaktoof wrote:
@baconcatbug. I see ignoring written rules allows for your invalid rule to exist, therefore you will ignore the written rules and the officially published commentary on said written rule.

Shooting says I compare the weapons stength to the targets roughness and make a roll, obviously I can make that roll during deployment despite it being a rule for the shooting phase.

Show permission to apply rules for tactical reserves to units not in tactical reserves(deployed somewhere other than the table during deployment) or a rule stating that rules text under the title of the rule default apply to everything outside of the title or you have no valid point.

You need to first show that "in tactical reserves" is a thing.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
@baconcatbug. I see ignoring written rules allows for your invalid rule to exist, therefore you will ignore the written rules and the officially published commentary on said written rule.

Shooting says I compare the weapons stength to the targets roughness and make a roll, obviously I can make that roll during deployment despite it being a rule for the shooting phase.

Show permission to apply rules for tactical reserves to units not in tactical reserves(deployed somewhere other than the table during deployment) or a rule stating that rules text under the title of the rule default apply to everything outside of the title or you have no valid point.

You need to first show that "in tactical reserves" is a thing.

Done above already.

blaktoof wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
@baconcatbug. I see ignoring written rules allows for your invalid rule to exist, therefore you will ignore the written rules and the officially published commentary on said written rule.

Shooting says I compare the weapons stength to the targets roughness and make a roll, obviously I can make that roll during deployment despite it being a rule for the shooting phase.

Show permission to apply rules for tactical reserves to units not in tactical reserves(deployed somewhere other than the table during deployment) or a rule stating that rules text under the title of the rule default apply to everything outside of the title or you have no valid point.

You need to first show that "in tactical reserves" is a thing.

Done above already.

Except you haven't. You have not shown there is a state, status or place called "Tactical Reserves" anywhere in the rulebooks, codexes or errata. You're literally making up rules where they don't exist.

So your argument is that p.215 that lists the "matched play rules" one of which is tactical reserves, and then as already pointed out is when units setup "somewhere other than the battlefield during deployment"

Ie any unit that has any rule that let's it setup to not the battlefield during deployment= tactical reserves from it's own stated rules.

Does not exist and are not rules.

Interesting.

Per the actual rules, units are either setup on the battlefield at deployment, or somewhere else. All somewhere else's are tactical reserves.

Units setup to the battlefield during deployment are not tactical reserves per the actual rules of the game on p.215.

The big faq errattas the tactical reserves rule, and is in effect solely for units not deployed to the battlefield during deployment-aka from the written rules tactical reserves.

Tactical reserves isn't not a specific place, it is all forms of being deployed to any place other than the battlefield during deployment.

blaktoof wrote:
So your argument is that p.215 that lists the "matched play rules" one of which is tactical reserves, and then as already pointed out is when units setup "somewhere other than the battlefield during deployment"

Ie any unit that has any rule that let's it setup to not the battlefield during deployment= tactical reserves from it's own stated rules.

Does not exist and are not rules.

Interesting.

Units that "Deploy in a teleportarium" are not in "Tactical Reserves", they are in a teleportarium. GW could have kept a single word/place for reserves, but they didn't because 8th edition logic. So, no, there isn't a place called "Tactical Reserves" that a unit can be in. What you are claiming is never stated.

It's clear we differ in philosophy. I am a RaW purist, I follow the rules as written. You're an "intent" person, so you play the rules as however you want them to be. You're free to play like that, just don't expect the majority of people (those who follow the rules) to agree with you.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

mhalko1 wrote:
Gw specifically stated that rules such as the Da Jump psychic power can be used to bypass the turn 1 deployment zone restriction.

Can you please show me where in the Rulebooks, Codexes or FAQ/Errata for those books this "specific statement" is made? I have read them all and cannot seem to find it.

It's not in any formal rules source. The community team released it as a big picture with the comment "we spoke with the designers."

So, it does not exist in a formal rules capacity, but, in any tournament, it is the rule. GW really dropped the ball on releasing that specific errata.

I see. If I am understanding you correctly, you're saying that things not in the rulebook are rules. If I made a gif saying "People with names beginning with B automatically win." would you consider that rules too? Also, saying "any tournament" is a misnomer because I am running a tournament right now and that is not the case, so you're provably wrong. Also, also, Tournament House rules have no bearing on what the actual rules are.

True, if you host your own tournament you can make any rule you want. But, in major ITC events, it is allowed, which is why it has become the standard. Rule or not. We agree that it is not a formal rule. What i'm saying is that generally in practice, this kind of deep strike is allowed.

 Marmatag wrote:
True, if you host your own tournament you can make any rule you want. But, in major ITC events, it is allowed, which is why it has become the standard. Rule or not. We agree that it is not a formal rule. What i'm saying is that generally in practice, this kind of deep strike is allowed.

That's not how it works. That's not how any of this works. An ITC house rule is just that, a house rule.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
So your argument is that p.215 that lists the "matched play rules" one of which is tactical reserves, and then as already pointed out is when units setup "somewhere other than the battlefield during deployment"

Ie any unit that has any rule that let's it setup to not the battlefield during deployment= tactical reserves from it's own stated rules.

Does not exist and are not rules.

Interesting.

Units that "Deploy in a teleportarium" are not in "Tactical Reserves", they are in a teleportarium. GW could have kept a single word/place for reserves, but they didn't because 8th edition logic. So, no, there isn't a place called "Tactical Reserves" that a unit can be in. What you are claiming is never stated.

It's clear we differ in philosophy. I am a RaW purist, I follow the rules as written. You're an "intent" person, so you play the rules as however you want them to be. You're free to play like that, just don't expect the majority of people (those who follow the rules) to agree with you.

This is not an issue of RAW purism, you are ignoring that being deployed Ina teleportorium during deployment is being deployed somewhere other than the battlefield. The specific language used in tactical reserves.

Said units are deployed elsewhere than the battlefield to arrive midgame, the specific language used by tactical reserves in the big faq.

Any unit deployed somewhere else than the battlefield during deployment is invoking the rules for tactical reserves for that unit which from the BRB raw goverrns how many such units can be deployed not to the battlefield, and per the big faq where they can arrive on turn 1 if you choose to deploy them to the battlefield mid game.

The rules for tactical reserves do not affect units deployed to the battlefield during deployment per previously mentioned the text from the big faq.

You can claim you are a RAW purist, but you are not actually following the RAW for what rules are invoked for units deployed to somewhere other than the battlefield during deployment, and are instead trying g to claim that is a general rule that affects all units- which simy from the rules as weitten can only be the case if you ignore portions of the rules for tactical reserves to: firstly remove tactical reserves as a set of rules governing models not deployed to the battlefield during deployment, and secondly by removing the first blanketly applying it to all units.

blaktoof wrote:
This is not an issue of RAW purism, you are ignoring that being deployed Ina teleportorium during deployment is being deployed somewhere other than the battlefield. The specific language used in tactical reserves.

Said units are deployed elsewhere than the battlefield to arrive midgame, the specific language used by tactical reserves in the big faq.

No, what you are ignoring is the fact the rule is broken into two distinct sections.

This is the rule

Furthermore, in matched play games, any unit that arrives on the battlefield during a player’s first turn must be deployed wholly within the controlling player’s deployment zone (even if its ability would normally let it be set up anywhere).

If a unit is removed from the battlefield, to be set up again, it arrives on the battlefield. Or are you saying that when you remove a unit from the battlefield it stays on the battlefield?

Da Jump says:

Remove this unit from the battlefield, and then set it up anywhere on the battlefield more than 9" from any enemy models.

It literally says to remove the unit from the battlefield. If it doesn't arrive onto the battlefield when you set it up, then it can't be on the battlefield, can it?

The second section is not a separate rule, . The big faq it is even contained within the same box as the rest of the rules for Tactical reserves.

As pointed out your arguement is based solely on it being distinctly separate from tactical reserves so that you can apply it to units that are setup on the battlefield during deployment. However it is not a separate I dividual rule, it is a rule that applies to tactical reserves, pointed out as being within the some boxed region as the other tactical reserves rules, and pointed out in the written commentary proceeding the erratted tactical reserves rules in the big faq.

blaktoof wrote:
The second section is not a separate rule, . The big faq it is even contained within the same box as the rest of the rules for Tactical reserves.

As pointed out your arguement is based solely on it being distinctly separate from tactical reserves so that you can apply it to units that are setup on the battlefield our bg deployment.

It is the same rule, but the rule itself applies to all instances of units arriving, not just those that deployed elsewhere. Again, if a rule tells you to literally remove the unit from a battlefield, how can it do anything unless it arrives back to the battlefield?

Anyway, I'm going to take the high road and leave it at that. You're free to make up whatever house rules you want, but the rules are crystal clear whether you like it or not.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

blaktoof wrote:
The second section is not a separate rule, . The big faq it is even contained within the same box as the rest of the rules for Tactical reserves.

As pointed out your arguement is based solely on it being distinctly separate from tactical reserves so that you can apply it to units that are setup on the battlefield our bg deployment.

It is the same rule, but the rule itself applies to all instances of units arriving, not just those that deployed elsewhere. Again, if a rule tells you to literally remove the unit from a battlefield, how can it do anything unless it arrives back to the battlefield?

Anyway, I'm going to take the high road and leave it at that. You're free to make up whatever house rules you want, but the rules are crystal clear whether you like it or not.

The rules are for tactical reserves, not arriving units.

The rules commentary in the big faq even states the rules are for units placed in tactical reserves, units which arrive mid game.

It has nothing to do with da jump, dark matter crystal, gate, unless said units arrived to the table during the turn said relic/power is bring used and that turn is turn 1.

GW even made a questionably official document with images referencing the actual rules as written for people who have a hard time with what it meant. They likely should have included it in the big faq, for people who had a hard time determine that rules for tactical reserves are applying to units using the tactical reserves rules.

I think it's great you are running an event for the hobby. I am sure many people are fine with your house rule that rules for tactical reserves apply to instances outside of tactical reserves however it is not my cup of early grey.

I wish you the best of luck, and I sincerely like your avatar.

Its a beta rule. Submit feedback instead of having a spat.

 Marmatag wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

mhalko1 wrote:
Gw specifically stated that rules such as the Da Jump psychic power can be used to bypass the turn 1 deployment zone restriction.

Can you please show me where in the Rulebooks, Codexes or FAQ/Errata for those books this "specific statement" is made? I have read them all and cannot seem to find it.

It's not in any formal rules source. The community team released it as a big picture with the comment "we spoke with the designers."

So, it does not exist in a formal rules capacity, but, in any tournament, it is the rule. GW really dropped the ball on releasing that specific errata.

Except they then said there that IS official.

Like it or not GW has decided their FB IS official source for rules. Lousy policy typical for the amateur work that GW is but that's the way we play. GW puts rule clarification on FB=that IS now official. Don't like it? tough. Prepare to carry links for FB posts and even their comments.

Very annoying as now as I have found out on tournaments you can run into arqument and would take like half a minute for GW to do it properly but hey GW isn't professional game design company so no surprise they do it like the amateurs they are.

tneva82 wrote:
Like it or not GW has decided their FB IS official source for rules.

[Citation Needed] In fact, it's the opposite, their FB page LITERALLY says they aren't a rules source.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Like it or not GW has decided their FB IS official source for rules.

[Citation Needed] In fact, it's the opposite, their FB page LITERALLY says they aren't a rules source.

Citation: Rules that have been subsequently released on their facebook page, ones that have been said to have come from the developers.

Here are the Big Faq tactical reserves beta rule followed by the GW facebook post. Now many people consider the facebook post unofficial however. Gw has chosen to use facebook as one of their mediums for various aspects. Therefore it must be taken as official. That then leads to the technically it is a beta rule so you and your opponent must agree on how to proceed with the beta rules.