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So I’m on the Horus heresy books at the moment, and I’ve noticed a strange trend. (I’m only up to book 8 so no spoilers please, even though I know most of the broad strokes of the lore anyway).

So, spoiler warning to start, for those who haven’t read the Horus heresy books and are planning to.


So in the first couple books, psykers are seen as something to be purged. Do not stand the psykers etc etc. It’s all witchcraft and sorcery, and getting Horus healed with it is a big deal and a turning point etc . Which is fine, and consistent with the emperors vision of a secular universe of no gods and no magic. Fine.

They even have a few big sections about the state of Magnus, who has been forced to give up his ‘sorcery’ (which he ignores anyway, which gets him into trouble with the space wolves).

Obviously I know that in 40k, space marines have librarians... but I mean I figure that a lot changes in 10k years, and maybe the librarians are a loophole or something...

But then in Fall of Angels it shows that librarians are already a thing. The dark angels have them before they even find the Lion. So psykers are fine... for the dark angels.

And the Alpha legion, who are using psykers too in Legion.

So apparently it’s only Horus who doesn’t have any psykers in his legion? Cos no one else seems to have an issue with them.

Except now in Battle for the Abyss, the space wolf and ultramarine main characters are both fairly upset with Mhotep for surviving the attack from daemons by using his psychic abilities...

So apparently it’s fine to be a psyker. Unless you’re an alien. Or a thousand son.

I mean the weirdest part is that I know the space wolves end up totally destroying prospero because of the thousand sons use of ‘magic’, but then the space wolves have LOADS of psykers and their own psychic powers.

Seems ridiculously inconsistent and a little confusing. Great books so far though.


(Much like, on a different topic, how in the first books, Horus and his legion have no idea about daemons and chaos, thinking it’s all superstition and nonsense. They’d never even heard the term ‘chaos’ before. But in Legion, the alpha legion already know all about daemons and chaos as an enemy in the warp, even though the timelines are fairly simultaneous. So it sounds like only Horus is out of the loop when it comes to the existence of daemons...)

I'm guessing you;ve not read the novel "A thousand Sons" yet?

There is much apparent hypocrisy.

Enough to infer that perhaps the person at the top has a deceitful, or plain incompetent nature.

Doesn't it make you angry? Surely there is a better way.

Let's embrace the truth.

Vote Horus M31.

Pyskers are tolerated because they are needed for the IOM to work due to how vast space is. With out astropaths and navigators it would all fall apart. Not going to spoil things, but the Emperor was looking for a way around that.

As for Marines, each legion reacted differently to how they treated pyskers. As for the difference between the Wolves and the Thousand Sons, it's the degree of which they dived into the warp. Russ knew his legion was being a hypocrite and the Emperor did as well. But though his logic was kinda BS, he wasn't exactly wrong. The Wolves dipped a cautious toe when they used their powers. The Thousand Sons dived in naked and partied with demons.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Pyskers are tolerated because they are needed for the IOM to work due to how vast space is. With out astropaths and navigators it would all fall apart. Not going to spoil things, but the Emperor was looking for a way around that.

As for Marines, each legion reacted differently to how they treated pyskers. As for the difference between the Wolves and the Thousand Sons, it's the degree of which they dived into the warp. Russ knew his legion was being a hypocrite and the Emperor did as well. But though his logic was kinda BS, he wasn't exactly wrong. The Wolves dipped a cautious toe when they used their powers. The Thousand Sons dived in naked and partied with demons.

Already know about the Emperors plans, have been around 40k for a long time so I know a lot of the lore, just not read the HH book series before that fills in the details.

You know that kind of hypocrisy is pretty consistent across a lot of subjects in the Imperium then.
The Imperium hates Psykers but uses plenty.
The Imperium hates nulls but uses them too.
The Imperium hates mutants and genetic freaks - except Space Marines, Ogryns and Rattlings and others whose names escape me.
The Imperium hates aliens except when they need to ally with them.
There are heroes in the Grimdark but there are no real ‘Good Guys’ just indifferent, bad and worse.

The Imperium hates nulls but uses them too.

In fairness, *everyone* hates pariahs. That's kind of their thing.

locarno24 wrote:

The Imperium hates nulls but uses them too.

In fairness, *everyone* hates pariahs. That's kind of their thing.

You don’t need the emphasis, most Nulls hate their own lives so much that they hate everything Pariah by extension.

Then again, Necrons and Tyranids are entire species completely indifferent to a lot of subjects so maybe they fit under the emphasis

Being hypocritical is basically the Imperium's entire thing. It'd be easier to list off the things they're genuine and consistent on... which is just that humanity is super awesome and better than everyone else, really.

I always looked at the use of psykers as a "necessary evil". IoM doesn't want to use them and scorns their existence as a whole, but those that fill a societally necessary role are tolerated.

I believe Chaplains were created for Space Marines as a way to console and repurpose Librarians after they were outlawed (temporary, of course).
It's basically all politics, with the added danger of the warp.

-

Niiru wrote:
So I’m on the Horus heresy books at the moment, and I’ve noticed a strange trend. (I’m only up to book 8 so no spoilers please, even though I know most of the broad strokes of the lore anyway).

So, spoiler warning to start, for those who haven’t read the Horus heresy books and are planning to.


So in the first couple books, psykers are seen as something to be purged. Do not stand the psykers etc etc. It’s all witchcraft and sorcery, and getting Horus healed with it is a big deal and a turning point etc . Which is fine, and consistent with the emperors vision of a secular universe of no gods and no magic. Fine.

They even have a few big sections about the state of Magnus, who has been forced to give up his ‘sorcery’ (which he ignores anyway, which gets him into trouble with the space wolves).

Obviously I know that in 40k, space marines have librarians... but I mean I figure that a lot changes in 10k years, and maybe the librarians are a loophole or something...

But then in Fall of Angels it shows that librarians are already a thing. The dark angels have them before they even find the Lion. So psykers are fine... for the dark angels.

And the Alpha legion, who are using psykers too in Legion.

So apparently it’s only Horus who doesn’t have any psykers in his legion? Cos no one else seems to have an issue with them.

Except now in Battle for the Abyss, the space wolf and ultramarine main characters are both fairly upset with Mhotep for surviving the attack from daemons by using his psychic abilities...

So apparently it’s fine to be a psyker. Unless you’re an alien. Or a thousand son.

I mean the weirdest part is that I know the space wolves end up totally destroying prospero because of the thousand sons use of ‘magic’, but then the space wolves have LOADS of psykers and their own psychic powers.

Seems ridiculously inconsistent and a little confusing. Great books so far though.


(Much like, on a different topic, how in the first books, Horus and his legion have no idea about daemons and chaos, thinking it’s all superstition and nonsense. They’d never even heard the term ‘chaos’ before. But in Legion, the alpha legion already know all about daemons and chaos as an enemy in the warp, even though the timelines are fairly simultaneous. So it sounds like only Horus is out of the loop when it comes to the existence of daemons...)

They are warned against and therefore your average person doesn't trust them, at the time of the HH the average public despised them as much as they are in the 41st. As for the Astartes depends on the legion, remember that they have to fight psykers whether human or xenos, so they are fearful of them, even astartes though 'fear' isn't the right word, they know just how dangerous they are so they are going to have that kind of fear of the unkown and the dangerous, which they are. Its also a personal thing, depends on the individual but yeah mostly psykers are dealt with scorn. but they were probably more despised in the Imperium in general after after Nikaea. You also have to understand that the unification wars saw a hell of a lot of fighting against uncontrolled psykers, so that would have passed on a lot of warnings from the veterans of the unification and sol wars. The only legion that fully condoned them were the tousand sons, blood angels white scars and the space wolves as long as the psykers were from Fenris.

.....ah, but they're not psykers, so it doesn't count!

(Yes, it does. Whilst the rout does have a few 'feral barbarians in power armour' Russ is not an ignorant savage, despite wearing fur pelts and going 'Arrr' whenever he thinks someone important is listening. He cannot be ignorant enough to actually believe this given his understanding of imperial science, but basically he and his inner circle play up the barbarian stereotype whenever convenient so that the rules don't apply to them)

The Dark Angels do 'close down' the librarius, but after the heresy kicks off, The Lion basically rescinds Nikea on his own authority within the legion. There's no indication the librarians on caliban renounce their ranks but given the strained relationship it's (vaguely) within the realms of possibility that the dark angels never bothered passing the edict against battle-brothers using psychic powers back through to the Rock (after all, who would they be fighting against?)

Nikea - where psykers were banned - happens some time between descent of angels (a 'flashback') and horus rising. After that date, the only librarian were either thousand sons, active traitors who'd stopped listening to anything the emperor said at all, or else in a legion whose primarch ordered a repeal of the nikean edicts after coming across something daemonic-ey in the early heresy.

There is a difference between a psyker who goes though the official channels (strong enough to train, if not to become Big E's pop-tart), a psyker who is undetected and basically a living beacon for all manner of warp gribblies, and willingly interacting with daemons and sorcery.

locarno24 wrote:
.....ah, but they're not psykers, so it doesn't count!

(Yes, it does. Whilst the rout does have a few 'feral barbarians in power armour' Russ is not an ignorant savage, despite wearing fur pelts and going 'Arrr' whenever he thinks someone important is listening. He cannot be ignorant enough to actually believe this given his understanding of imperial science, but basically he and his inner circle play up the barbarian stereotype whenever convenient so that the rules don't apply to them)

The Dark Angels do 'close down' the librarius, but after the heresy kicks off, The Lion basically rescinds Nikea on his own authority within the legion. There's no indication the librarians on caliban renounce their ranks but given the strained relationship it's (vaguely) within the realms of possibility that the dark angels never bothered passing the edict against battle-brothers using psychic powers back through to the Rock (after all, who would they be fighting against?)

Nikea - where psykers were banned - happens some time between descent of angels (a 'flashback') and horus rising. After that date, the only librarian were either thousand sons, active traitors who'd stopped listening to anything the emperor said at all, or else in a legion whose primarch ordered a repeal of the nikean edicts after coming across something daemonic-ey in the early heresy.

I thought it clear that I was pointing out Russ' hypocrisy...

Even Russ admits some degree of hipocracy there, but apparently exceptions get made for him all the time, and that the space wolf Rune Preists don't push as far as the 1k sons did. some of the later books have been really good at describing where the lines etc are drawn. and really the only one who was all "NO PSYKERS EVER" was Morty

BrianDavion wrote:
Even Russ admits some degree of hipocracy there, but apparently exceptions get made for him all the time, and that the space wolf Rune Preists don't push as far as the 1k sons did. some of the later books have been really good at describing where the lines etc are drawn. and really the only one who was all "NO PSYKERS EVER" was Morty

Which books go into more detail on where the lines are drawn? I just got through most of the Thousand Sons/SW stuff and am still pretty confused about why Rune Priests are okay.

barboggo wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Even Russ admits some degree of hipocracy there, but apparently exceptions get made for him all the time, and that the space wolf Rune Preists don't push as far as the 1k sons did. some of the later books have been really good at describing where the lines etc are drawn. and really the only one who was all "NO PSYKERS EVER" was Morty

Which books go into more detail on where the lines are drawn? I just got through most of the Thousand Sons/SW stuff and am still pretty confused about why Rune Priests are okay.

Wolfsbalde touches on this. Russ essentially knows he's being hypocritical but both he and the Emperor are ok with it since the Emperor's Executioners needs every tool available to do their jobs. Additionally Rune Priests, and even other pyskers from the other legions are far more restrained than the Thousand Sons. Additionally the more recent novels show that due to the semi primitive beliefs of the Wolves, they actually were less likely to get pulled into the warp or have a demon possess them. I'd compare it to having a beer after dinner to doing 14 shots before going out. Both activities involve the same substance but the behavior and outcome is very different.

HoundsofDemos wrote:

barboggo wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
Even Russ admits some degree of hipocracy there, but apparently exceptions get made for him all the time, and that the space wolf Rune Preists don't push as far as the 1k sons did. some of the later books have been really good at describing where the lines etc are drawn. and really the only one who was all "NO PSYKERS EVER" was Morty

Which books go into more detail on where the lines are drawn? I just got through most of the Thousand Sons/SW stuff and am still pretty confused about why Rune Priests are okay.

Wolfsbalde touches on this. Russ essentially knows he's being hypocritical but both he and the Emperor are ok with it since the Emperor's Executioners needs every tool available to do their jobs. Additionally Rune Priests, and even other pyskers from the other legions are far more restrained than the Thousand Sons. Additionally the more recent novels show that due to the semi primitive beliefs of the Wolves, they actually were less likely to get pulled into the warp or have a demon possess them. I'd compare it to having a beer after dinner to doing 14 shots before going out. Both activities involve the same substance but the behavior and outcome is very different.

I think the Emperor had to let Russ use them, it would be pretty stupid if the Emperor had a legion killing legion that couldn't use psykers, they would have needed to use them if they ever had to potentially go up against Magnus especially after Nikaea, the Emperor probably allowed them that in case the Emperor had to sanction Magnus in some way. Also due to the lost legions. The way he acted with Russ and the Rout kinda suggests this, they were given a lot of allowances. Though I will admit that the Emperor had a soft spot for Russ and the Rout, seeing that he far respected and liked loyalty in his warriors than anything else, which is why he loved his Custodes so much. Especially in Wolfsbane, when he shows how proud he is for the Rout when speaking to Horus.

The edict of Nikea laid down exceptions to the rule, Astropaths and Navigators.
Rune Priests before Njal Stormcaller basically fall into one or two of three categories.

The gift of foresight.
The gift of minimal weather manipulation.
The gift of psychic denial which is usually latent and up until 7th edition channeled by superstitious artifacts like wolf tail talismans.

All three of these actually fall under the same disciplines as the Astropathy teachings of Telepathy, Telekinesis and Divination. Not overly hard for the Space Wolves to convince themselves that they’re operating within the rulings of the edict.

Nikea only forbade Astartes from using their psychic power, no one else. Astropaths and navigators weren't exceptions, they just weren't affected by it.

This is less evident in the current less grimdark version of 40K, but Imperial hypocrisy is a theme in the fluff.

EDIT: though Tau hypocrisy has gotten more obvious!

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
You know that kind of hypocrisy is pretty consistent across a lot of subjects in the Imperium then.
The Imperium hates Psykers but uses plenty.
The Imperium hates nulls but uses them too.
The Imperium hates mutants and genetic freaks - except Space Marines, Ogryns and Rattlings and others whose names escape me.
The Imperium hates aliens except when they need to ally with them.
There are heroes in the Grimdark but there are no real ‘Good Guys’ just indifferent, bad and worse.

Psykers are kept under heavy regulation and are often fed to the emperor. They are treated with distrust and superstition.
Nulls are similarly distrusted.
Space Marines are products of the Emperor. Ergo they are holy. Ogryns and Ratlings are discriminated against, but are tolerated because they are still seen as loyal subjects. The fear of mutation stems from chaos, not eugenics. The two get conflated though.
They still hate aliens. Its just that they aren't stupid enough to not recognize a greater threat and make deals when needed. Its also hard to not hate something that is actively trying to kill or betray you at every chance it gets. If the Eldar weren't such arrogant dicks (and absolute sadists in the case of the Dark Eldar) and the Tau didn't keep trying to assimilate Imperial worlds, they could be allies.

None is this is really hypocrisy. Its using a tool. Remember that the Imperium is fighting for survival, and will use every tool at their disposal to survive. Psykers, Nulls, adhumans, etc are all just tools to be exploited. To me, that's a sign of hatred. They don't even consider them equals.
Hypocrisy would be more like them admonishing the Eldar for using necromancy...whilst the Imperium uses servoskulls and servitors.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
using a tool. Remember that the Imperium is fighting for survival, and will use every tool at their disposal to survive. Psykers, Nulls, adhumans, etc are all just tools to be exploited. To me, that's a sign of hatred. They don't even consider them equals.
Hypocrisy would be more like them admonishing the Eldar for using necromancy...whilst the Imperium uses servoskulls and servitors.

yeaaah about that https://regimental-standard.com/2018/09/19/necromantic-perfidies-of-the-aeldari/

BrianDavion wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
using a tool. Remember that the Imperium is fighting for survival, and will use every tool at their disposal to survive. Psykers, Nulls, adhumans, etc are all just tools to be exploited. To me, that's a sign of hatred. They don't even consider them equals.
Hypocrisy would be more like them admonishing the Eldar for using necromancy...whilst the Imperium uses servoskulls and servitors.

yeaaah about that https://regimental-standard.com/2018/09/19/necromantic-perfidies-of-the-aeldari/

You know that "Regimental Standard" is intended to be satirical, right?

 BaconCatBug wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
using a tool. Remember that the Imperium is fighting for survival, and will use every tool at their disposal to survive. Psykers, Nulls, adhumans, etc are all just tools to be exploited. To me, that's a sign of hatred. They don't even consider them equals.
Hypocrisy would be more like them admonishing the Eldar for using necromancy...whilst the Imperium uses servoskulls and servitors.

yeaaah about that https://regimental-standard.com/2018/09/19/necromantic-perfidies-of-the-aeldari/

You know that "Regimental Standard" is intended to be satirical, right?

yeah, I just found it amusingly on topic, I expect CthululsSpy was thinking exactly of it too

BrianDavion wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
using a tool. Remember that the Imperium is fighting for survival, and will use every tool at their disposal to survive. Psykers, Nulls, adhumans, etc are all just tools to be exploited. To me, that's a sign of hatred. They don't even consider them equals.
Hypocrisy would be more like them admonishing the Eldar for using necromancy...whilst the Imperium uses servoskulls and servitors.

yeaaah about that https://regimental-standard.com/2018/09/19/necromantic-perfidies-of-the-aeldari/

You know that "Regimental Standard" is intended to be satirical, right?

yeah, I just found it amusingly on topic, I expect CthululsSpy was thinking exactly of it too

First time I read that article actually. But yeah, GW is taking the piss.
The Imperium calling the Eldar necromancers isn't new. They used the same term in the 3rd necron codex, iirc.

I mean, the "prolong their repulsive lives" bit even links to the SM Redemptor Dreadnought. As satire, it's about as subtle as a half-brick to the face.

Niiru wrote:
So in the first couple books, psykers are seen as something to be purged. Do not stand the psykers etc etc. It’s all witchcraft and sorcery, and getting Horus healed with it is a big deal and a turning point etc . Which is fine, and consistent with the emperors vision of a secular universe of no gods and no magic. Fine.

Sorcery and psychic powers are not inherently synonymous.

Horus was healed with sorcery from a backward cult. That is far more dangerous than simply using your native psyker powers.

They even have a few big sections about the state of Magnus, who has been forced to give up his ‘sorcery’ (which he ignores anyway, which gets him into trouble with the space wolves).

Obviously I know that in 40k, space marines have librarians... but I mean I figure that a lot changes in 10k years, and maybe the librarians are a loophole or something...

But then in Fall of Angels it shows that librarians are already a thing. The dark angels have them before they even find the Lion. So psykers are fine... for the dark angels.

Librarians were only banned after the Edict of Nikaea, which occurred after all the Primarchs were found.

So apparently it’s only Horus who doesn’t have any psykers in his legion? Cos no one else seems to have an issue with them.

Horus is in fact one of a few Primarchs who never personally made use of Librarians. There were others, like Mortarion or Fulgrim.

Except now in Battle for the Abyss, the space wolf and ultramarine main characters are both fairly upset with Mhotep for surviving the attack from daemons by using his psychic abilities...

Thousand Sons are sorcerers. And once again, by this point psychic powers among the Legions were banned.

Space Wolves are just hypocrites though, and don't view their Rune Priests as psykers.

(Much like, on a different topic, how in the first books, Horus and his legion have no idea about daemons and chaos, thinking it’s all superstition and nonsense. They’d never even heard the term ‘chaos’ before. But in Legion, the alpha legion already know all about daemons and chaos as an enemy in the warp, even though the timelines are fairly simultaneous. So it sounds like only Horus is out of the loop when it comes to the existence of daemons...)

The Alpha Legion were informed of such by the Cabal, a secret galactic organization dedicated to stemming the tide of Chaos.

Other than the Alpha Legion, the only Legion who up to that point had any knowledge of Chaos were the Thousand Sons, whose knowledge was incomplete, and the Word Bearers I think, who started the Heresy in the first place due to Chaos contact.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

Niiru wrote:
So in the first couple books, psykers are seen as something to be purged. Do not stand the psykers etc etc. It’s all witchcraft and sorcery, and getting Horus healed with it is a big deal and a turning point etc . Which is fine, and consistent with the emperors vision of a secular universe of no gods and no magic. Fine.

Sorcery and psychic powers are not inherently synonymous.

While this might be technically true depending on perspective, from a game perspective (and as far as i know, a lore perspective), they're all 'psykers'.

I mean just cos you call a psyker a sorcerer instead, doesnt make the hypocrisy any less. Just means you're trying to hide it bby changing the label.

Horus was healed with sorcery from a backward cult. That is far more dangerous than simply using your native psyker powers.

They even have a few big sections about the state of Magnus, who has been forced to give up his ‘sorcery’ (which he ignores anyway, which gets him into trouble with the space wolves).

Obviously I know that in 40k, space marines have librarians... but I mean I figure that a lot changes in 10k years, and maybe the librarians are a loophole or something...

But then in Fall of Angels it shows that librarians are already a thing. The dark angels have them before they even find the Lion. So psykers are fine... for the dark angels.

Librarians were only banned after the Edict of Nikaea, which occurred after all the Primarchs were found.

So apparently it’s only Horus who doesn’t have any psykers in his legion? Cos no one else seems to have an issue with them.

Horus is in fact one of a few Primarchs who never personally made use of Librarians. There were others, like Mortarion or Fulgrim.

Except now in Battle for the Abyss, the space wolf and ultramarine main characters are both fairly upset with Mhotep for surviving the attack from daemons by using his psychic abilities...

Thousand Sons are sorcerers. And once again, by this point psychic powers among the Legions were banned.

Space Wolves are just hypocrites though, and don't view their Rune Priests as psykers.

(Much like, on a different topic, how in the first books, Horus and his legion have no idea about daemons and chaos, thinking it’s all superstition and nonsense. They’d never even heard the term ‘chaos’ before. But in Legion, the alpha legion already know all about daemons and chaos as an enemy in the warp, even though the timelines are fairly simultaneous. So it sounds like only Horus is out of the loop when it comes to the existence of daemons...)

The Alpha Legion were informed of such by the Cabal, a secret galactic organization dedicated to stemming the tide of Chaos.

They were only told this by the cabal at the end of the book. But they talk about 'chaos' et al from the beginning. So the Alpha Legion already know about it before the cabal told them about the end of the galaxy.

But then, it's the Alpha legion, so it does make sense that they would know something and not share it with the others.

Other than the Alpha Legion, the only Legion who up to that point had any knowledge of Chaos were the Thousand Sons, whose knowledge was incomplete, and the Word Bearers I think, who started the Heresy in the first place due to Chaos contact.

Sorceror isn't synonymous with psyker, but all sorcerors are psykers. Sorcery is a subset of psychic techniques that are Chaos-tainted.