Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
The Emperor has been a corpse ten millennia. Sure, we as readers know that he 'really' had magical powers, but the people in the setting really cannot reasonably know that. Sure, they believe it, but they would believe it just the same if the whole thing was just a myth or a lie made up by the Ecclesiarchy. Same with Guilliman, sure he is a big stong dude in a giant robo armour, but this is a setting where Space Marines, Orgyns, Dreadnoughts and all sort of big stong creatures exist. So again the important par is that the people believe that he is mythic hero returned. They would believe this even if he was a well prepped spare head Cawl had bolted on armoured robobody. So like with the historical figures we are no longer allowed to talk about, the important part is the perception and belief.

"The Emperor Protects" is not just retoric - its something he does do - directly or though others like Living Saints.

Not sure what point you are now trying to make?

I think he's trying to say that he doesn't believe in the God-Emperor.

Get the flamers boys! We've got a heretic to burn!

 Crimson wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

er ok.... But they didn't - because he is not.... he is a Primarch. Thats what he is and thats how he is perceived - there is not a difference.

That is only a matter of perspective. Sure he is a Primarch. He is also resurrected by a xeno-necromancy. Whether one considers that blasphemy is a matter of opinion. Personally I find it rather implausible that a puritan Inquisitor and a devout Sister of Battle would not see xeno-necromancy and heretech resurrecting a saint blasphemy, but that's how they wrote it. For example if Satanists would start resurrecting dead saints by necromancy, I really doubt Catholics would just declare it a miracle and be cool with it.

And what religious organisations tell to people has very little to do with how things are, and very much to do what those organisations want people to believe. It is about control and power, especially in a dark and dystopic setting like 40K.

I think people tend to oversell the xeno-necromancy too much IMO sometimes. Ynnari help was a factor, but don't forget the fundamental basis for his resurrection was Mechanicus technology. In any case, I think Morden's case still stands, it doesn't matter whether or not it's "blasphemy" or not how he got revived (not to mention no one knows how he came back besides a very small circle of people). He's a primarch, through and through.

 Crimson wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

I think people tend to oversell the xeno-necromancy too much IMO sometimes. Ynnari help was a factor, but don't forget the fundamental basis for his resurrection was Mechanicus technology. In any case, I think Morden's case still stands, it doesn't matter whether or not it's "blasphemy" or not how he got revived (not to mention no one knows how he came back besides a very small circle of people). He's a primarch, through and through.

And if he was actually a thrall of Yvraine set up by the Ynnead to take control of the Imperium how would things look any different?

He probably wouldn't be able to commune with the Emperor for one thing, or at the very least, the Emperor would have purged the Ynnari influence on him when they met face to face. Either way, it doesn't change that he IS a primarch. It's not like his resurrection fundamentally changed his biology or being.

 Crimson wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

He probably wouldn't be able to commune with the Emperor for one thing, or at the very least, the Emperor would have purged the Ynnari influence on him when they met face to face. Either way, it doesn't change that he IS a primarch. It's not like his resurrection fundamentally changed his biology or being.

Assuming that Emperor actually communes with anyone and is not just a vegetable. People hearing voices in their heads is not proof of supernatural influence. Or maybe Guilliman thinks it is Emperor talking to him while it actually is Ynnead? Also, Magnus and Mortarion are Primarchs too, but for some reason the Imperium is not that cool with them...

No, it's quite explicit in Dark Imperium that the Emperor communicated to Roboute Guilliman when he entered the chamber with the Golden Throne. It's why he's so demoralized internally after meeting with him. If he wanted it to go the way he wanted and was just going full wacko, I highly doubt he'd hallucinate that. Here's the link for it by the way: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1D_lnzgLEe3taX24SodvfCSd2VGsHcIgwQpJ5jmIMuLs/edit

Are you just going on conjecture rather than fact at this point?

 Crimson wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:

No, it's quite explicit in Dark Imperium that the Emperor communicated to Roboute Guilliman when he entered the chamber with the Golden Throne. It's why he's so demoralized internally after meeting with him. If he wanted it to go the way he wanted and was just going full wacko, I highly doubt he'd hallucinate that. Here's the link for it by the way: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1D_lnzgLEe3taX24SodvfCSd2VGsHcIgwQpJ5jmIMuLs/edit

Are you just going on conjecture rather than fact at this point?

We know that, as readers, people in the setting don't know that. Any reasonable Inquisitor would be insanely suspicious of a xenos plot.

But no one outside of Greyfax, Celestine, the Ynnari, and the UM know about the details of his resurrection. Even if Inquisitors were (rightfully) suspicious, if he has the backing of the Custodes (whom even the Inquisitors must defer to) and as Morden said, a bloody Saint of the Emperor, why would anyone question him? None of his actions have merited accusations of treason or heresy either.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:


Your going round and round in circles with nothing to back it up.

WHY would they - Gods own Angel says he is ok, God says he is good, No-One knows or has said otherwise. Again you are forgetting or repeadely ignoirgn that many of the Inqusitors are religious fanatics or at least beievers.

Again a Angel direct from GOD said to them he is the geniuine article.

Said 'angel' tells them to trust a xeno-witch. That goes completely against ten thousand years of ingrained doctrine.

Furthermore, the whole story is nauseatingly simplistic. Every potential complication is just brushed away. God says Guilliman is awesome, he is so shiny and everyone loves him. It is gak storytelling.
Did you ever read the Inquisitor (the old gamebook)? The whole set up is that different factions within the Inquisition are battling about what is the 'truth' about the Emperor; what is his will. If we are now in a situation where the Emperor just tells people what he thinks that undermines that whole ambiguity. But there is place for such things in the current fluff.

I can understand your frustration with his return, but fundamentally there's nothing wrong with a Primarch returning, at least the way he did. It's not like the Imperium never had a Primarch lead it, the complications that arise is the Great Rift, cleaving the Imperium in two, and Roboute's own horror of what the Imperium's become. There's a lot of potential in him attempting some pursuit of reform and having to deal with rotting edifices that have been built up, like the Ecclesiarchy. He's already butted heads with Inquisitors that cover up the Imperium's past with his attempt to revive his version of Remembrancers that are trying to catalogue a relatively accurate timeline for the Imperium that has been out of whack for 10k years.