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Obviously not going to be WYSIWYG, but from a modeling standpoint, I think it just looks better.
Smoke Launchers being standard wargear, I don't model them at all as it's more to paint and distract from the overall aesthetic.

I'm also kinda annoyed that Havoc Launchers are so...meh. I mean, it looks like a bay of 6 Hunter-killer missiles, but instead it's a worse version of a Heavy Bolter.
I fell like the unique Chaos 4-cylinder Smoke launchers (with little missiles inside) far better represent D6 S5 shots.

So how would anyone feel if a player used Smoke Launchers to model all their Havoc Launchers, so long as no Smoke launchers were modeled, or were modeled using the lesser 3-barreled Imperial bits?
One could even combine the 2 Smoke Launchers each Chaos vehicle sprue comes with into a single 8-barreled mini-launcher, which would not only look cool, but would make it more clear that it was something other than a Smoke Launcher.

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I personally wouldn't give a [Expletive Deleted].

Since you no longer fire from the weapon, I wouldn't care. Weapons on vehicles don't really matter anymore so just go with what looks cool.

No.

It looks far too weedy and missile tubes are trivially easy to make.

 Grimtuff wrote:
No.

It looks far too weedy and missile tubes are trivially easy to make.

But that's not my issue. I'd have the actual Havoc Launcher, but the profile of the weapon is what's "too weedy" to be represented by it.
As I said, a Havoc Launcher looks more like a Cyclone or Typhoon missile launcher, or at the very least, the flak version of those weapons.
It's a big weapon that should have a more impressive profile, but instead of proposing a better profile, I'd rather just use an more appropriate bit to represent what it does.
So slap 2 Smoke launchers together (specifically the 4-barreled Chaos ones) and call it a day.

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 Galef wrote:

 Grimtuff wrote:
No.

It looks far too weedy and missile tubes are trivially easy to make.

But that's not my issue. I'd have the actual Havoc Launcher, but the profile of the weapon is what's "too weedy" to be represented by it.
As I said, a Havoc Launcher looks more like a Cyclone or Typhoon missile launcher, or at the very least, the flak version of those weapons.
It's a big weapon that should have a more impressive profile, but instead of proposing a better profile, I'd rather just use an more appropriate bit to represent what it does.
So slap 2 Smoke launchers together (specifically the 4-barreled Chaos ones) and call it a day.

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Nope, sorry I'm not buying it.

There are literally hundreds of bits that can be used and two very distinctive bits glued together that are no bigger than a Bolter does not a Havoc Launcher make.

I'd be totally fine with it, the Chaos smoke launchers look great.

I'd rather see a more involved kitbash of a rocket pod (maybe slap two of the smokelaunchers together and put them on a pintle-mount) just because the smokelauncher itself is already a representation of something else.

I should be able to look at it and see something that's clearly a counts-as weapon. When I ask "what weapon is that?" you can say, "it's a havok launcher".
If it's just got a smoke launcher on it, I'm never going to ask "what weapon is that?". And then you'll say "my rhino shoots it's havok launcher at that unit" and I'll say "what? where's the havok launcher?" and you'll point to the smokelauncher that, to me, was obviously just a smokelauncher, and I'll be pissy for the rest of the game.

The chaos smokelauncher is such a cool bit, and it's super easy to make something cool with it. Don't just slap it on the model and call it a day.

Gotta agree - I'd look very sideways at you if you just said "Well, I'm counting my smoke canisters as a havoc launcher".

RaW you're totally fine, so it's a thumbs up from me.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
RaW you're totally fine, so it's a thumbs up from me.

Allowed by rules as "acksually WYSIWYG does not exist anymore"=/= totally fine and not a bit of a dick move.

You know--and this is a bit crazy of me--I'd feel a lot weirder if my opponent said 'these smoke launchers are a havoc launcher' rather than 'this chaos rhino has a havoc launcher, it just isn't modeled on.' I've never bat an eye at nonexistent havoc launchers, combi-weapons, storm bolters, or HKMs before, nor has anyone around here been that much of a stickler for WYSIWYG.

But somehow, even in an era where weapon place no longer matters, 'these smoke launchers are a havoc launcher' seem like someone is trying to get away with something. Even if there's no reason at all to believe that. Either way, I don't think I'd decline a game over it.

Personally, I'd suggest some sort of kitbash involving a combi/storm bolter mount and a grenade launcher.

--Oooh, ooh! Or maybe using the Chaos smoke launcher barrels, but sticking them on the end of a different weapon, like making a volley gun out of the combi-bolter. Or maybe a conversion using a really fickle-looked Heavy Bolter-caliber weapon.

edited for brainstorming and enthusiasm.

Takes offence at being asked to remember a single blanket conversion, tells others what they can do with their models, accuses others of 'dick-moves'.

In the grim darkness of the far future, there is no self-awareness.

In my opinion, following the rules, by definition, cannot be a dick move.

 Excommunicatus wrote:
Takes offence at being asked to remember a single blanket conversion, tells others what they can do with their models, accuses others of 'dick-moves'.

In the grim darkness of the far future, there is no self-awareness.

Remember that when someone's basic Cadian grenade launchers magically turn into Plasma Guns.


Been burnt too many times to be nice on this topic.

Right, 'cause that's totally the same as what's being proposed here.

So basically a bad man hurt you once and you think that justifies being a crabby [Expletive Deleted] to other people who vaguely, kinda, mention something that's a little bit similar, but not really?

Coolbeans.

https://positivepsychologyprogram.com/mindfulness-exercises-techniques-activities/

Grimtuff, I have Ex blocked, but I'd assume he's running his mouth as usual --- ignore him, lol.

I’d say that if you mention it to your opponent, that should probably be sufficient

I love the look of Havok Launchers and wish that Imperials had access to them... but to each their own.

 greatbigtree wrote:
I’d say that if you mention it to your opponent, that should probably be sufficient

I love the look of Havok Launchers and wish that Imperials had access to them... but to each their own.

Chaos needs something since they don't access to a lot of stuff they probably should. As an IOM player, I really wish GW would release a different books splitting the Legions, recent traitors and loyalists.

I only meant insomuch as I don’t play Chaos and I wish I had Rhinos that could take them.

 Elbows wrote:
Grimtuff, I have Ex blocked, but I'd assume he's running his mouth as usual --- ignore him, lol.

Yup. Correlating my experiences of people being shifty/half-arsed in 40k to abuse.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
In my opinion, following the rules, by definition, cannot be a dick move.

Actually following the rules can at times be the textbook what a dick move is. See: Tony Grippando.

 SHUPPET wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
In my opinion, following the rules, by definition, cannot be a dick move.

Actually following the rules can at times be the textbook what a dick move is. See: Tony Grippando.

Just Googled who he was. That right there should be stuck in the Thesaurus as a textbook example of being hoisted by one's own petard.

You live by the sword, you die by the sword.

 McGibs wrote:
I'd rather see a more involved kitbash of a rocket pod (maybe slap two of the smokelaunchers together and put them on a pintle-mount).

This is kinda what I am starting to think would work better. The searchlight bit on the same sprue is on a pintle just like the actual Havoc launcher, but smaller. I could take both Chaos smoke launchers, clip off their supports and glue them to that pintle (minus the searchlight of course, which is conveniently a separate piece already).
That way it would be an 8-barrel pintle-mounted launcher.

The point of all this is to have a Havoc launcher that actually looks like it fires d6 S5 shots, rather than the current bit that clearly look like it should be firing S8 AP-2 shots.
I also want it to look like a minor weapon while on a Predator compared to the main weapons. The current Havoc launcher looks like a main weapon and really isn't

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 Galef wrote:

The point of all this is to have a Havoc launcher that actually looks like it fires d6 S5 shots, rather than the current bit that clearly look like it should be firing S8 AP-2 shots.
I also want it to look like a minor weapon while on a Predator compared to the main weapons. The current Havoc launcher looks like a main weapon and really isn't

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So what is stopping you from using literally any other missile tube or rocket pod bits from GW (or elsewhere) to make one?

 Grimtuff wrote:

So what is stopping you from using literally any other missile tube or rocket pod bits from GW (or elsewhere) to make one?

When I buy the Chaos Predator, there are bitz on the sprue already that would work perfectly, so why go to the extra effort of using something else?
I also wouldn't be modeling the Smoke Launchers anyway, so that's bits just sitting in my box not getting used.
I'm sorry that you have issues with it, but from my perspective this is the clear and obvious solution to many of my concerns

Which are (just to recap):
-Havoc launcher too big for it's rules and thus distracts from the aesthetic
-Not using the smoke launchers on the model anyway as they are default wargear, so always assumed to be on the model
-Making more use of the model's bits. As above the smoke launchers and search light mount is available for me to use and the actual Havoc launcher would make a great Cyclone ML for my Terminators (though not priority)
-Also, the Chaos smoke launchers are quite different looking to the Imperial ones and look more like mini missile launchers, which perfectly represents the Havoc's profile

But I do agree that my original premise of just "saying" the smoke launchers are Havoc launchers wasn't the best. But attaching both together and the searchlight mount would perfectly represent d6 S5 shots

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 Galef wrote:

so why go to the extra effort of using something else?

Because you're breaking rule numero uno of counts as and conversions.

1- Can it be confused with something else?
2- Does it accurately represent what I'm subbing it in for?


The fact you're literally just using a very recognizable part from the very same kit as something else is a red flag right there. Why not use a Cyclone from the Termi kit? Why not missile bits from Land Speeders? Tau? Hell, even Orks. There are a wealth of bits sites out there so there is zero excuse to half arse this. Even a cut up monster base like the OG Whirlwind would be better than what you're proposing.

 Grimtuff wrote:

1- Can it be confused with something else?

I'd find it hard to believe someone would confuse an 8-barreled, pintle-mounted launcher for smoke launchers, but that's all subjective anyway. I'd also have it placed either on the Turret or on one of the weapon hatches at the front. Neither placement is a traditional smoke launcher placement, but rather a weapon placement (usually combi-weapon or....wait for it....a Havoc launcher)

 Grimtuff wrote:

2- Does it accurately represent what I'm subbing it in for?

That's kinda the point. The actual Havoc launcher, whether the "correct" bit or not, hardly represents what it does on the table-top. The smoke launchers, which aren't even weapons, do more accurately represent the rules.

Another "layer" to this is to understand my purpose of owning a Chaos Predator. I don't play CSM. I don't play Marines. But I do have a collections of "iconic" units from both, including models from each Legion/Chapter with rules.
This model would be a Pred/Rhino as a match/balance to my Marine's Razorback/Rhino and Dreaadnought. I consider a Havoc Launcher to be equivalent to a Hunter-Killer missile, in that it is a cheap "after thought" add-on to the tank. I'd like it to be equivalent in size (meaning aesthetically a secondary weapon) as well.

In any case, I have the answer I want. I'd like to sway everyone, but that isn't always possible. The conversation is what is important, as it gets my thinking of potential obstacles and ways to avoid them or provide counter argument. So thanx everyone

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There's definitely no way you'll sway the kind of person who acts like a dick, gets called on it and thinks the correct response is to put his fingers in his ears and proclaim he's not the problem.

Just don't play dicks and you'll be fine.

The OP asked for what people think. He’s been given answers, some of which make valid points that it could, easily, be mistaken for something else... because it is the bit for something else from that kit.

Maybe you like the idea of Pintle mounted smoke launchers? Take that, you loyalist scum! Smoke you in the face!

Once you let your opponent know they are count-as Havoks, and you’re consistent about it, non-tournaments would likely be ok with it. If the tournament had a WYSIWYG requirement, it likely would not pass the “is it obvious what it represents” component, because it would “obviously” be a different thing; a set of smoke launchers.

But if that is not a concern of the OP, then he’s probably in the clear with his gaming group.

I happen to disagree, in that I don’t think the Havok modeling piece look “incorrect” for what it does, but to each their own. If you aren’t planning to use them, I’d suggest trying to sell them.