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Hey everyone, with this post i would like to understand why should i play cadian over catachan. I mean, i'd really prefer to play them, but catachan just perform a looot better in almost everything, even with tanks. I mean, the only point could be that you have access to Pask, but 3 catachan leman with battle cannon and plasma sponsons, and Harker with them aren't just better?

You pick up cadian for shooting. Rerolling 1's to hit beats +1S when it comes to shooting. Nevermind rerolling EVERY to hit as cadian can get.

Cadian Tank Commanders get Pound Them To Dust order which is essentially almost as good as the Catachan trait. But if you're running a lot of mortars, basilisks, hellhounds, wyverns etc I would probably pick Catachan.

So I guess Cadian for plasma and Pask, Catachan for artillery and flamers.

So I happen to have a Catachan army, so might be biased, but I think they have the edge as they are more mobile. I wish the Cadia option, which is great for, say, things like heavy weapon squads, had a change to make it more mobile as it a more fun way to play.

Thew Catachan one though does need to be toned down a bit, my favourite is making their save 6+, but +2 for being in cover. As they lack the heavy flak of the Cadian type troops.

 Weazel wrote:
Cadian Tank Commanders get Pound Them To Dust order which is essentially almost as good as the Catachan trait. But if you're running a lot of mortars, basilisks, hellhounds, wyverns etc I would probably pick Catachan.

So I guess Cadian for plasma and Pask, Catachan for artillery and flamers.

Why mortars? The catachan bonus is for VEHICLES which mortars aren't. Unless you refer to heavy mortar units that are 72 pts per heavy mortar which sounds awfully overpriced. S6 -1 Dd3 is nice yes but 1d6 shots only vs 6d6 you could get from mortars for about same price. Catachan bonus or not.

It depends.
If You run Harker I'd say catachan all the way. Just leave Harker near manticores and You have strong artillery re-rolling ones to hit. For very crucial roll there is always Aerial Spotters stratagem.
Catachan Hellhounds are blast.
Infantry squad with priest and straken gives you 33 s4 attacks with ws4+.

OTH: Cadia have Pask, and rerolling one's when stationary is great when running plasma. HWT with mortars able to re-roll all failed hit rolls are great. They are dirty cheap (2 x 33 pts plus 30pts for CC) but fragile as hell. In case when you need to actually move your forces there is always relic of lost cadia.

Personally I run Tallarn . Driving artillery around the board and shooting enemy units with full efficiency is nice . Even hellhound actually benefits as HB on Tallarn is viable and because of that you do not need to charge hellhounds into heavy flamer range. It gives you super mobile forces and IMO the best tank command available for AM.

The point about Tallarn is a good one - it isn't a binary choice when it comes to which regiment to run! (Honestly I don't think mixed regiments should be allowed in one army...)

Well, mixing regiments is not prohibited.
I usually run light mechanized Tallarn with Cadian/Catachan support artillery. Even in codex there are multiple references to mixed regiments fighting alongside (page.40 "Combining Regiments")

The real answer is Death Korps of Krieg

tneva82 wrote:

 Weazel wrote:
Cadian Tank Commanders get Pound Them To Dust order which is essentially almost as good as the Catachan trait. But if you're running a lot of mortars, basilisks, hellhounds, wyverns etc I would probably pick Catachan.

So I guess Cadian for plasma and Pask, Catachan for artillery and flamers.

Why mortars? The catachan bonus is for VEHICLES which mortars aren't. Unless you refer to heavy mortar units that are 72 pts per heavy mortar which sounds awfully overpriced. S6 -1 Dd3 is nice yes but 1d6 shots only vs 6d6 you could get from mortars for about same price. Catachan bonus or not.

Okay I need to double check that. I'm not intimately familiar with all the traits since I run Cadians exclusively.

Catachan has the edge. Both can get that re-rolled shots and re-rolled 1's on tanks, but Catachans get to keep moving while doing so, and Catachan artillery can get both while Cadian artillery can't. Also, if you're only going to get one, get the re-rolled shots over the re-rolled ones on all vehicles except the Basilisk.

Cadian infantry are better, since +1 STR isn't really that valuable.



However, Cadia has a much better relic and strategem. Vicious Traps is really lame, especially compared to Overlapping Fields of Fire.

Re-rolling 1s to hit and re-rolling the number of shots are actually nearly equivalent. 3.5 shots rerolling 1s averages 2.04 hits. Rerolling a 1D6 on a 1, 2, or 3, averages 4.25 shots, which comes to 2.13 hits. But Cadians have the advantage of this bonus applying to everything, not just vehicles with random numbers of attacks.

I think what gives Cadians the edge for typical meta is how the Cadian doctrine combines with Take Aim to reroll all misses, and they have access to a tank order that gives them the Catachan bonus anyways, so they get the best of both worlds. And then on top of that you add the unique Cadian stratagem, and you can easily get any of your units in your army to hit on 3s, re-rolling all misses. They're each minor buffs, but they stack to dramatically increase firepower, and affect everything in the army as opposed to being maximally useful for a few select units.

Keep in mind the current meta is tons of infantry in a gunline, which the Cadian doctrine significantly buffs, while the Catachan doctrine does very little.

That said, I use the Catachan doctrine (entirely for fluff reasons), and Straken plus a Priest plus the Catachan S buff means just two Infantry Squads throw a whopping 62 S4 attacks. Nobody expects Guard to fight competently in melee, and it gives them a lot of flexibility. I don't play it as a gunline, so the Catachan doctrine works better for me. And while we're talking doctrines, Vostroyans are interesting. 6" of bonus range is nothing to sneeze at, plus a unique order that lets them fire in melee, and their stratagem lets you give a unit 3+ to hit for cheap. If you want some real mobility, Tallarn is viable too.

Point is, Cadians might be meta, but each of the doctrines has applicability to different lists. Your army composition and intended strategy will dictate which doctrine is best for you.

I wouldn't say Tallarn is that great for anything other than Super Heavies, since it doesn't give re-rolled shot output.

Re-rolled shot output is a big thing, since it makes the vehicle more reliable. The issue is when you roll a 3 or 4 with your Manticore or Leman Russ.

More to the point, Harker confers re-rolls to nearby Catachan units and Catachan TC's can give themselves the re-roll 1's even if they move, so Catachans are basically just better for tanks and artillery than Cadian.

However, the Cadian infantry ability is stronger, since +1 STR is just kind of not useful, but your infantry will probably move quite a bit anyway.


The real deal is OFF and Relic of Lost Cadia, and those make up for Cadians having to sit still [and then some]. The catachan relic is a stabby stick, for all the use that will find in the IG, and the strategem is lame; while the cadian relic is a super strong buff and their stratagem will ensure that you kill what you want.

I like Tallarn because I like to play a mobile game and keep my tanks moving. The strat is also useful.

It is strictly inferior to Cadian and Catachan in terms of damage output.

Of the two?

I probably fall in with Catachan.

Harker sat in the middle of a Russ heavy Battalion with rerolling number of shots and 1's on everything in the bubble?

Cadian's have the reroll order, but that's limited to how many expensive command tanks you bring and it only affects the turret.

I prefer Cadians over catachans because of their relics and stratagem. Being able to spend a couple command points to make EVERY CADIAN IN YOUR ARMY get +1 to hit a single enemy unit after a single wound gets through, combined with rerolling 1's (rerolling all fails if it's infantry w/orders) makes for a really heavy hitting shooting phase. In a meta where IK's, daemon primarchs, and other big nasties are prevalent on the boards, the ability to really focus fire a single model to death is important.

Another reason is that while yes, Catachans can take Harker, he costs 50 pts. Cadian's pay nothing to sit still and get rerolling 1's to hit.

As others have stated, with the tank commanders at least, a Cadian tank commander (Pask included) can sit still and order himself to reroll his number of shots fired, and get the reroll's of 1 to hit without having to pay for a supporting character and their aura.

PLASMA. IG loves plasma this edition, and rerolling 1's takes away any reason to not overcharge all the time. Cadians are best at this. They may not reroll number of shots on the tanks, but rerolling the 1's is even more important.


I agree with other's sentiments too that you may want to choose your regiment specifically based more on your play style. Other's have mentioned Tallarns. A lesser realized example is Vostroyans. Vostroyans have a 1CP stratagem that gives a single unit a flat +1 to hit for the shooting phase. This, combined with the range increase to their weapons makes them ideal for spamming plasma guns with their infantry, and ideal for using Baneblades/variants and/or tank commanders.

A perfect example is the ever feared shadowsword. Shadowswords get +1 to hit titanics on their own, and the stratagem can give them another +1 to hit, and you can take either yarrick or a Trojan to give it rerolls to hit from there. Ever seen what max sponsons shadowsword does to a titanic unit when it's hitting on 2+ and rerolling 1's? Heck, ever seen what it will do to a -non- titanic unit hitting on 3+ rerolling 1's? (rerolling all if you went with Trojan).

My advice choose your regiment based on how you plan to build the majority of your lists.

Catachan can do amazing things.

Want better melee than Space Marines? You can have it effortlessly.

3 infantry squads
straken
primaris psyker
priest

It sounds like a lot, but when you consider it's nothing points wise, it's great! Combine the squads, charge in, and have 3 attacks at strength 4 per guy, and just for kicks, issue them orders! Fix Bayonets is a nice one, while this costs most armies 3 command points and is very difficult to justify such a high spend, you get it for free!

Don't forget you have Ogryns and Bullgryns which are *fantastic*, and when these guys have 5 attacks per model you know it's silly. Isn't it nice having a squad of guys that is effectively a dreadnought each, while being more durable, thanks to their 0+/3++ save?

 Marmatag wrote:
Don't forget you have Ogryns and Bullgryns which are *fantastic*, and when these guys have 5 attacks per model you know it's silly. Isn't it nice having a squad of guys that is effectively a dreadnought each, while being more durable, thanks to their 0+/3++ save?

4 attacks, you mean? They don't benefit from Straken, since they're not <Regiment> infantry.

Where does the 0+/3++ come from? You can get a 1+ with the Slabshield and Psyker buff, or a 3++ with a Brute Shield and buff, but I don't see how you get a 0+ or have both the armor and invuln.

Also, I think you might be a little mixed up on Fix Bayonets- you can use the order in lieu of shooting in the turn after you charge/get charged, provided you're still in melee and don't want to fall back/Get Back In The Fight. Pretty useful, but not quite as flexible as the 3CP 'immediately fight again' stratagem some armies get.

All of this being just nitpicking. Catachan infantry supported by Straken and a Priest are pretty strong.

 SHUPPET wrote:
The real answer is Death Korps of Krieg

Well them or Vostroyans. Both rock excellent fashion sense.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
The real answer is Death Korps of Krieg

Well them or Vostroyans. Both rock excellent fashion sense.

If I could trade in my whole IG army for a Vostroyan army half the size.. I'd be on top of that I think.

 chrispy1991 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
The real answer is Death Korps of Krieg

Well them or Vostroyans. Both rock excellent fashion sense.

If I could trade in my whole IG army for a Vostroyan army half the size.. I'd be on top of that I think.

The only downside is the need to convert the HWTs to have more options, but otherwise they're basically perfect.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Cadian infantry are better, since +1 STR isn't really that valuable.

so wrong, this is the best part about them. combine with straken, a priest, fix bayonets, and some power fists and it's very good.

The real solution is to run both. Make your Leman Russ Cadian and your Artillery Catachan.

If you want to stick to mono-faction, each has their pros and cons and it really depends on what the army list is as to which pick is better.

catbarf wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
Don't forget you have Ogryns and Bullgryns which are *fantastic*, and when these guys have 5 attacks per model you know it's silly. Isn't it nice having a squad of guys that is effectively a dreadnought each, while being more durable, thanks to their 0+/3++ save?

4 attacks, you mean? They don't benefit from Straken, since they're not <Regiment> infantry.

Where does the 0+/3++ come from? You can get a 1+ with the Slabshield and Psyker buff, or a 3++ with a Brute Shield and buff, but I don't see how you get a 0+ or have both the armor and invuln.

Also, I think you might be a little mixed up on Fix Bayonets- you can use the order in lieu of shooting in the turn after you charge/get charged, provided you're still in melee and don't want to fall back/Get Back In The Fight. Pretty useful, but not quite as flexible as the 3CP 'immediately fight again' stratagem some armies get.

All of this being just nitpicking. Catachan infantry supported by Straken and a Priest are pretty strong.

1. They get +1 attack on the charge. That, plus the priest (requires ASTRA MILITARUM not REGIMENT) takes you to 5 attacks.
2. Shield takes 4+ -> 2+; Cover to 1+; Psychic Power to 0+.
3. Considering how easy it is to wrap around something with 20-30 models (since we're combining squads as why not), you're going to get this order if you want it. And, once you have got access to it, it's absurd.

None of this is far fetched or difficult to obtain. You can do all of this that i'm discussing in a battalion for under 600 points, including the Bullgryns.

 SHUPPET wrote:
The real answer is Death Korps of Krieg

Chaos is the only true answer.

You'll need to build a super-computer to figure out the question, though.

I feel like there's some extraordinary hyperbole going on here with respect to Ogryns.

Like: Dreadnought:
Melee:
S12, D3, Ap3, A4 [with buffs available depending on faction and supporting characters]
Ranged:
Heavy Weapon of choice, frequently twin linked.
Resiliency:
T7, W8, Sv3+
Recieves CT, and is buffed by Lieutenant and Captain.

Bullgryn:
Melee:
S7, D2, Ap1, A3 [4 on the charge, 5 with buff from non-regimental characters]
Ranged:
None. Or a grenade launcher that they give up the melee to have.
Resilience:
T5, W3, Sv1+ or 3++
Does not receive Doctrines, cannot receive Orders.


Like, a squad of Ogryn isn't anything near a squad of "effectively a dreadnought each." Also, a Dreadnought can buy things like quad autocannons if you ditch the melee weapon, which is, in my opinion, a good idea.

 Excommunicatus wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
The real answer is Death Korps of Krieg

Chaos is the only true answer.

You'll need to build a super-computer to figure out the question, though.

Pretty sure the question is "which faction has the worst Guard equivalent?" and the answer is amazing since Tau can't even field theirs due to not having rules for human auxiliaries.

Renegades were good yesterday, they're bad today and they'll be good again tomorrow. C'est la vie.

Chasing metas gives you ulcers and a pile of grey plastic that's useless after a year.

I just want to say that this thread has had me staring far too much at Krieg models again and now my wallet is crying. Thanks for that.