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Made in us
Tough Tyrant Guard





With the new batch of FAQs out, the are some new precedents to be seen. One in particular caught my eye in the Drukhari FAQ.

Q: If a Succubus is given the Serpentin combat drug, does its Weapon Skill characteristic increase to 1+? If so, does the Succubus still hit if a hit roll of 2 is rolled for an attack for a melee weapon and, due to an ability, I have to subtract 1 from that hit roll? A: Yes, and yes – only unmodified hit rolls of 1 automatically fail


Does this mean that if you have a character, a wolf lord for example, who rolls a 1 on a d6, does his +1 to hit on the charge change that to a hit? Does it effect his rerolls? As it says only unmodified hit rolls automatically fail. In my example here, that 1 is in fact modified to a meet the WS of 2+.

Am I seeing jesus in my toast here or do SW characters without negative hit modifiers applied to their attacks automatically hit from their chapter tactic?
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






StarHunter25 wrote:
With the new batch of FAQs out, the are some new precedents to be seen. One in particular caught my eye in the Drukhari FAQ.

Q: If a Succubus is given the Serpentin combat drug, does its Weapon Skill characteristic increase to 1+? If so, does the Succubus still hit if a hit roll of 2 is rolled for an attack for a melee weapon and, due to an ability, I have to subtract 1 from that hit roll? A: Yes, and yes – only unmodified hit rolls of 1 automatically fail


Does this mean that if you have a character, a wolf lord for example, who rolls a 1 on a d6, does his +1 to hit on the charge change that to a hit? Does it effect his rerolls? As it says only unmodified hit rolls automatically fail. In my example here, that 1 is in fact modified to a meet the WS of 2+.

Am I seeing jesus in my toast here or do SW characters without negative hit modifiers applied to their attacks automatically hit from their chapter tactic?
It means if you roll a 1, you still miss. Read the rules for rolling to hit. "A roll of 1 always fails, irrespective of any modifiers that may apply." It doesn't matter if you have a +33874387428 to hit, a 1 always misses. This is just GW being <ADJECTIVE> and not keeping their wording standardised.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2018/10/02 19:32:12


 
   
Made in dk
Khorne Veteran Marine with Chain-Axe






By FAQ its autohitting. FAQ is the new standard, we all have to abide by it, unless we houserule it to work as the old days like Bacon suggests.

Im so fething tired if GW making rules for their rules and changeing rules in relation to how the tournament scene looks...

This edition is a mess.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/02 20:54:13


6000 World Eaters/Khorne  
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 Brutallica wrote:
By FAQ its autohitting. FAQ is the new standard, we all have to abide by it, until they make a new rule for their rules rule rule...

This edition is a mess.


If you roll 1 that's unmodified 1. That's been case forever. What this FAQ means that if you have WS1+ and roll 2 but it's modified by -1 it hits. It's not unmodified 1 but modified 1. 2-1=1. That's modified. If your unmodified roll is 1 it's miss. If your modified roll is 1 then it depends on what your WS is. 2? Miss. 1? Hit.

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in dk
Khorne Veteran Marine with Chain-Axe






tneva82 wrote:
 Brutallica wrote:
By FAQ its autohitting. FAQ is the new standard, we all have to abide by it, until they make a new rule for their rules rule rule...

This edition is a mess.


If you roll 1 that's unmodified 1. That's been case forever. What this FAQ means that if you have WS1+ and roll 2 but it's modified by -1 it hits. It's not unmodified 1 but modified 1. 2-1=1. That's modified. If your unmodified roll is 1 it's miss. If your modified roll is 1 then it depends on what your WS is. 2? Miss. 1? Hit.



As GW would have said it Yes, yes yes yes yes – only unmodified hit rolls of 1 automatically fail.


6000 World Eaters/Khorne  
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






Sorry Brutallica, you're flat out wrong. Yes, it should use the same language, but the FAQ doesn't change anything.
   
Made in dk
Khorne Veteran Marine with Chain-Axe






The whole FAQ is flat out wrong. But it is what it is.

6000 World Eaters/Khorne  
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 Brutallica wrote:
The whole FAQ is flat out wrong. But it is what it is.
It isn't wrong. It actually reinforces one of the two ways RaW could be interpreted. A WS of 1+ rolling a D6-1 will hit on a physical roll of 2 or more. A roll of 2 is modified down to a 1, and this satisfies the requirement to roll 1 or more. This FAQ just makes it more explicit. It should also hit on a physical roll of 1, but the rule about 1's missing means that you miss.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/10/02 21:24:21


 
   
Made in dk
Khorne Veteran Marine with Chain-Axe






 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Brutallica wrote:
The whole FAQ is flat out wrong. But it is what it is.
It isn't wrong. It actually reinforces one of the two ways RaW could be interpreted. A WS of 1+ rolling a D6-1 will hit on a physical roll of 2 or more. A roll of 2 is modified down to a 1, and this satisfies the requirement to roll 1 or more. This FAQ just makes it more explicit. It should also hit on a physical roll of 1, but the rule about 1's missing means that you miss.


As written in FAQ, Only unmodified hit rolls of 1 automatically fail. Meaning a charging 2+ space wolf with +1 WS on the charge dont have to roll any dice.
The dice have been modified, there for you dont miss.

6000 World Eaters/Khorne  
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 Brutallica wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Brutallica wrote:
The whole FAQ is flat out wrong. But it is what it is.
It isn't wrong. It actually reinforces one of the two ways RaW could be interpreted. A WS of 1+ rolling a D6-1 will hit on a physical roll of 2 or more. A roll of 2 is modified down to a 1, and this satisfies the requirement to roll 1 or more. This FAQ just makes it more explicit. It should also hit on a physical roll of 1, but the rule about 1's missing means that you miss.


As written in FAQ, Only unmodified hit rolls of 1 automatically fail. Meaning a charging 2+ space wolf with +1 WS on the charge dont have to roll any dice.
The dice have been modified, there for you dont miss.
And, again, the rules say a 1 always fails, irrespective of modifiers. The FAQ didn't change this rule.
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

 Brutallica wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Brutallica wrote:
The whole FAQ is flat out wrong. But it is what it is.
It isn't wrong. It actually reinforces one of the two ways RaW could be interpreted. A WS of 1+ rolling a D6-1 will hit on a physical roll of 2 or more. A roll of 2 is modified down to a 1, and this satisfies the requirement to roll 1 or more. This FAQ just makes it more explicit. It should also hit on a physical roll of 1, but the rule about 1's missing means that you miss.


As written in FAQ, Only unmodified hit rolls of 1 automatically fail. Meaning a charging 2+ space wolf with +1 WS on the charge dont have to roll any dice.
The dice have been modified, there for you dont miss.


+1WS is not a roll modifier. It's a statistic modifier.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in dk
Khorne Veteran Marine with Chain-Axe






Oh so it dosent modify the roll?

Serpentin combat drug, what makes that a roll modifier and not a statistic modifier?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/02 21:55:52


6000 World Eaters/Khorne  
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






 Brutallica wrote:
Oh so it dosent modify the roll?

Serpentin combat drug, what makes that a roll modifier and not a statistic modifier?
You're getting too hung up on the wording of the FAQ which doesn't actually change anything about how the core rule is resolved. Serpentin combat drug improves the WS to 1+, it doesn't change the roll at all. What a WS of 1+ means is that even with a -1 to hit effect, you'll still hit on a 2+. You'd hit on a 2+ even if there wasn't a -1 to hit effect, or if you have a +384738474398 to hit effect.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/02 22:27:34


 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

 Brutallica wrote:
Oh so it dosent modify the roll?

Serpentin combat drug, what makes that a roll modifier and not a statistic modifier?


It’s because it changes the WS to (in the example) WS1+

With a -1 to hit modifier in play...

- A roll where the dice shows a 1 is a fail due to the core rules
- A roll where the dice shows a 2, becoming a 1, which at WS1+ is successful


A character with WS2+ and +1 To Hit rolling a 1 on the dice is a fail, because of the core rules.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in dk
Khorne Veteran Marine with Chain-Axe






Actually makes sense now, i stand corrected... Man what the hell happend with a dice roll being a dice roll and a stat being a stat?

Oh i roll a 1, its a 2, and 2 is one when 3 is 4, then subtract but also add, wich means 1 is 1 but when its a plasma its a 2.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/03 00:23:25


6000 World Eaters/Khorne  
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 Brutallica wrote:
The whole FAQ is flat out wrong. But it is what it is.


No. It covers what happens if you roll 2 but is modified to 1. That's not automatic fail as that's not UNMODIFIED roll of 1. It's not "roll of 1 always fails". It's "unmodidified(as in before modifiers) roll of 1 fails". While rare there are stuff with WS1+ where this matters when they have modifiers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Brutallica wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
 Brutallica wrote:
The whole FAQ is flat out wrong. But it is what it is.
It isn't wrong. It actually reinforces one of the two ways RaW could be interpreted. A WS of 1+ rolling a D6-1 will hit on a physical roll of 2 or more. A roll of 2 is modified down to a 1, and this satisfies the requirement to roll 1 or more. This FAQ just makes it more explicit. It should also hit on a physical roll of 1, but the rule about 1's missing means that you miss.


As written in FAQ, Only unmodified hit rolls of 1 automatically fail. Meaning a charging 2+ space wolf with +1 WS on the charge dont have to roll any dice.
The dice have been modified, there for you dont miss.


No that's not what it means. If you get +1 to hit and roll 1 the roll of 1 before modifiers(ie the unmodified) means it fails. If you add the +1 then that's not unmodified dice roll now is it? It's modified roll.

Unmodified roll refers to the dice result BEFORE dice modifiers. Ergo +1 to hit doesn't avoid auto miss.

WS1+ with -1 to hit however can hit on roll of 2 as the 1 is result of MODIFIED roll. Not unmodified(which is 2. Which is funnily enough not 1 which is the autofail)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/03 05:36:24


2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




tneva82 wrote:

No that's not what it means. If you get +1 to hit and roll 1 the roll of 1 before modifiers(ie the unmodified) means it fails. If you add the +1 then that's not unmodified dice roll now is it? It's modified roll.

Unmodified roll refers to the dice result BEFORE dice modifiers. Ergo +1 to hit doesn't avoid auto miss.

WS1+ with -1 to hit however can hit on roll of 2 as the 1 is result of MODIFIED roll. Not unmodified(which is 2. Which is funnily enough not 1 which is the autofail)

A curious side effect of this is that if you have a 1+ ws then you will always hit on a 2+ regardless of modifiers. Negative modifiers are capped at modifying a dice roll to a minimum of 1. So even if you have -3 to hit, your natural 2 becomes a modified 1 and you pass your 1+ WS test.
   
Made in gb
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






StarHunter25 wrote:
With the new batch of FAQs out, the are some new precedents to be seen. One in particular caught my eye in the Drukhari FAQ.

Q: If a Succubus is given the Serpentin combat drug, does its Weapon Skill characteristic increase to 1+? If so, does the Succubus still hit if a hit roll of 2 is rolled for an attack for a melee weapon and, due to an ability, I have to subtract 1 from that hit roll? A: Yes, and yes – only unmodified hit rolls of 1 automatically fail


Does this mean that if you have a character, a wolf lord for example, who rolls a 1 on a d6, does his +1 to hit on the charge change that to a hit? Does it effect his rerolls? As it says only unmodified hit rolls automatically fail. In my example here, that 1 is in fact modified to a meet the WS of 2+.

Am I seeing jesus in my toast here or do SW characters without negative hit modifiers applied to their attacks automatically hit from their chapter tactic?


"Unmodified rolls of 1" simply means if you literally roll a 1 on the dice cast.

GW will likely never allow auto hitting units. This is a clear pipe dream.
   
Made in dk
Khorne Veteran Marine with Chain-Axe






tneva82 wrote:
 Brutallica wrote:
The whole FAQ is flat out wrong. But it is what it is.


No. It covers what happens if you roll 2 but is modified to 1. That's not automatic fail as that's not UNMODIFIED roll of 1. It's not "roll of 1 always fails". It's "unmodidified(as in before modifiers) roll of 1 fails". While rare there are stuff with WS1+ where this matters when they have modifiers.



What i mean with flat out wrong is the way its balanceing, and the amount of useful balance it brings, it fixes literally nothing and creates problems for fly, and for melee (who allready suffered enough this edition).

6000 World Eaters/Khorne  
   
Made in us
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair






What the FAQ is really saying is that, via buffs and such, a WS(or BS) can have a value of 1+, or even -n+; and in such cases you still have a 16.666% chance to miss by the dice showing a "1" when rolled.

That is it. That is all that it is saying, and it is completely consistent with all of the 8th ed rules in the rulebook.

The question only even exists because in previous editions you had a hard-limit of 2+ on all modifiers(along with the "unmodified roll of 1 always fails"). Too many people wamted to come into 8th edition thinking it was like 4th-7th; where the rules were mostly the same as 3rd, with minor changes from the previous edition.

This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.



 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle





In My Lab

JakeSiren wrote:
tneva82 wrote:

No that's not what it means. If you get +1 to hit and roll 1 the roll of 1 before modifiers(ie the unmodified) means it fails. If you add the +1 then that's not unmodified dice roll now is it? It's modified roll.

Unmodified roll refers to the dice result BEFORE dice modifiers. Ergo +1 to hit doesn't avoid auto miss.

WS1+ with -1 to hit however can hit on roll of 2 as the 1 is result of MODIFIED roll. Not unmodified(which is 2. Which is funnily enough not 1 which is the autofail)

A curious side effect of this is that if you have a 1+ ws then you will always hit on a 2+ regardless of modifiers. Negative modifiers are capped at modifying a dice roll to a minimum of 1. So even if you have -3 to hit, your natural 2 becomes a modified 1 and you pass your 1+ WS test.


That's right! Less than 1 just becomes 1! That's GW for you.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in gb
Legendary Dogfighter




england

What happened to playing to the spirit of the game...
This is just beyond dumb
   
Made in de
Nihilistic Necron Lord






Germany

Ask GW, they screwed up the rules.
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






ValentineGames wrote:
What happened to playing to the spirit of the game...
This is just beyond dumb
The spirit of the game is the same as the rules of the game.
   
Made in gb
Legendary Dogfighter




england

-Removed by insaniak-

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/10/05 20:05:01


 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

ValentineGames wrote:
What happened to playing to the spirit of the game...
This is just beyond dumb

What the rules say and how people choose to actually play it on the table aren't always the same thing. It's worth keeping that in mind when reading rules debates in this forum.


For the thread at large - please stick to the topic, folks. I have removed a bunch of OT chatter. This thread isn't the place for debating the quality of GW's rules in general, or the merits of analysing those rules.

 
   
 
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