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Of these five Leman Russ variants, which two would work best in an IK list with IG allies?  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
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Made in us
Battle-tested Knight Castellan Pilot






I have all of the following Leman Russ variants built and almost ready to go (needs a bit more painting). I'm going to be using two as command tanks along with four Cadian Infantry Squads for an IG Battalion Detachment and three Imperial Knights.

Which of the following do you think would make the best two command tanks for that Battalion Detachment?

Eradicator
Executioner
Exterminator
Punisher
Vanquisher

Thanks in advance!

SG

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/09 14:09:29


40K - Imperial Knights (House Hawkshroud - WIP), Tyranids (Hive Fleet Behemoth), T'au Empire (T'au Sept)
AoS - Not sure yet

*** I only play for fun. I do not play competitively. *** 
   
Made in gb
Rampaging Carnifex





This is an easy question, because most Leman Russ variants are very poor compared to a hand full of the others.

Out of the ones you've listed the Eradicator, Exterminator, and Vanquisher are frankly pretty terrible.

The Executioner is not bad, about the same performance as the Battlecannon.

The Punisher is also pretty good against chaff.

The Punisher probably has the most use in a Knights list, as your Knights will already have heavy weapons and you might struggle to deal with mobs. I'd consider going double Punisher.
   
Made in us
Ork-Hunting Inquisitorial Xenokiller



Ottawa

 Stux wrote:
This is an easy question, because most Leman Russ variants are very poor compared to a hand full of the others.

Out of the ones you've listed the Eradicator, Exterminator, and Vanquisher are frankly pretty terrible.

The Executioner is not bad, about the same performance as the Battlecannon.

The Punisher is also pretty good against chaff.

The Punisher probably has the most use in a Knights list, as your Knights will already have heavy weapons and you might struggle to deal with mobs. I'd consider going double Punisher.


Exalted - spot on analysis. I second the motion for double Punisher.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






Whats wrong with the battlecannon?

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in ca
Krazed Killa Kan





 Xenomancers wrote:
Whats wrong with the battlecannon?


probably redundant given that he's also taking knights.

My milkshakes bring all the boys to the yard and they're like, hurr darry darr.


My suggestion to you is to get married, if you have a good wife you'll be happy, if you have a bad wife you'll become a philosopher. 
   
Made in gb
Rampaging Carnifex





 Xenomancers wrote:
Whats wrong with the battlecannon?


Nothing wrong with the Battlecannon, it's excellent. It just wasn't one of the options the OP said they were interested in.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






Wouldn't the next best choice be a demolisher?

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in gb
Rampaging Carnifex





 Xenomancers wrote:
Wouldn't the next best choice be a demolisher?


I don't rate demolishers much.

Their damage throughput Vs T7 is only very marginally better than a Battlecannon.

Against T8 it's about 50% more, which looks good until you factor in range.

You only get Grinding Advance if you move under half you M, and with a 24" range a Demolisher really struggles to get both shots on the best target consistently.

Then factor in it's quite a bit more expensive too...

I'd basically always rather have a Battlecannon and be more flexible and have the points spare.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I should add, I'd still take a Demolisher over Eradicators, Exterminators, or Vanquishers.

I don't think Demolishers are great, but they are by no means horrible like those others are!

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/10/09 15:00:33


 
   
Made in us
Awesome Autarch






Sadly the folks above nailed it. The Battle Cannon is an excellent all around gun, the Punisher is obnoxious (particularly with Vengeance for Cadia vs. Chaos armies), and the humble Demolisher cannon is probably the most overlooked option on that tank.

Heavy D3
Range: 24"
Strength: 10
Armour: -3
Damage: D6

The Demolisher became a short-range tank/knight killer. The ability to shoot twice gives you between 2-6 shots (or 2-12 if you're targeting groups of 5+ models --- meaning it can excel at killing tough units like Terminators, Bikes, etc.) Speed it up on turn one, pop smoke, and bring some additional nonsense like multi-meltas, etc. The silly tank no one takes seriously suddenly starts vaporizing other tanks and large models. Is it versatile? Nope. But when it hits, damn it hits. I put 14 wounds on a Knight with a single shot from a Vindicator a couple games back. Fit it with heavy flamers if you want to protect yourself from most charges, etc.

Outside of a tournament setting, I can see a lot of fun being had with the humble Demolisher.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/09 15:01:24


 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






Battle cannon seems to outperform all the options.

I can see the demolisher struggling in some situations and shinning in others.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in gb
Rampaging Carnifex





 Xenomancers wrote:
Battle cannon seems to outperform all the options.

I can see the demolisher struggling in some situations and shinning in others.


That's about right. It's a riskier option, purely due to mobility.

If Forgeworld options are on the table then the Conqueror gives everything else a run for its money. Annihilators are pretty good too. As are, somewhat surprisingly, Stygies Vanquishers!
   
Made in us
The Last Chancer Who Survived




On moon miranda.

The problem with the Demolisher is the cost and range. You've got a third the range of a Battlecannon for 80% more cost. Instead of being able to hit anything on the board corner to corner, you have to get within Rapid Fire range. For this you get about 25% better performance against T7 3+sv or lower behicles and monsters, and about 66% better performance against T8+ 3+sv vehicle and monster units, with broadly equal or lower effectiveness against infantry targets (depending on wound count and save and model count) and pay 40pts instead of 22.

I think the extra performance against big targets is more than counterbalanced by the loss in range (leaving turns without anything to being that gun ti bear against) and 18pt price differential.



IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

Heavy Gear Painting Log, Northern Guard, Southern Republican Army, and Terrain
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in gb
Rampaging Carnifex





 Vaktathi wrote:
The problem with the Demolisher is the cost and range. You've got a third the range of a Battlecannon for 80% more cost.


While that is technically correct by the list prices of the gun, I think it's a bit disingenuous to present it this way.

You can't take the gun on its own, it needs the Russ. And you can't take a Russ without a gun. So I don't think you can completely separate the cost of the gun from the cost of the platform.

Really we need to compare their combined costs. In which case a Demolisher is 11% more expensive than a standard Battlecannon Russ. (Note this does include the cost of the hull Heavy Bolter though - it can't be totally separated again, for the same reasons, as a hull weapon is compulsory!)
   
Made in us
Awesome Autarch






Oh, I absolutely agree it's super risky...but Russes are generally robust tanks, and I can see a couple or three Demolishers rolling to the center of the table and controlling a large 48" swathe around them. If you added multi-meltas (which, granted are expensive as hell for what they do) you're looking at a not-inconsiderable amount of firepower. It strikes at my "fun" nerve. Something risky and silly, but when it works, very amusing.

I would kill for Space Marine Vindicators to have a double-shot option...I'd take them every game at that point.

 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 Elbows wrote:
Oh, I absolutely agree it's super risky...but Russes are generally robust tanks, and I can see a couple or three Demolishers rolling to the center of the table and controlling a large 48" swathe around them. If you added multi-meltas (which, granted are expensive as hell for what they do) you're looking at a not-inconsiderable amount of firepower. It strikes at my "fun" nerve. Something risky and silly, but when it works, very amusing.

I would kill for Space Marine Vindicators to have a double-shot option...I'd take them every game at that point.

I think it could be extremely competitive.
3 Command russ with demo cannons advancing behind a brigade of catachans with straken.
With 3 Manticores and 3 basalisks dropping bombs from the rear. It creates a situation where going for the weaker armor turn 1 with cost you turn 2 when you are taking 2d6 str 10's with ap-3 d6 damage to any elite unit over 5 models.

Devestating.

If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Awesome Autarch






So that begs the question - what would you lean on sponson-wise?

 
   
Made in gb
Rampaging Carnifex





 Xenomancers wrote:
 Elbows wrote:
Oh, I absolutely agree it's super risky...but Russes are generally robust tanks, and I can see a couple or three Demolishers rolling to the center of the table and controlling a large 48" swathe around them. If you added multi-meltas (which, granted are expensive as hell for what they do) you're looking at a not-inconsiderable amount of firepower. It strikes at my "fun" nerve. Something risky and silly, but when it works, very amusing.

I would kill for Space Marine Vindicators to have a double-shot option...I'd take them every game at that point.

I think it could be extremely competitive.
3 Command russ with demo cannons advancing behind a brigade of catachans with straken.
With 3 Manticores and 3 basalisks dropping bombs from the rear. It creates a situation where going for the weaker armor turn 1 with cost you turn 2 when you are taking 2d6 str 10's with ap-3 d6 damage to any elite unit over 5 models.

Devestating.


It's devastating if your enemy has a lot of T8. If they don't, Battlecannons will do better imo


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Elbows wrote:
So that begs the question - what would you lean on sponson-wise?


I don't think they're usually worth it.

Plasma on Pask, HBs on a Commander Punisher. But that's about as far as I'd go.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/09 16:57:26


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





My love for the conqueror knows no bounds. It's an extremely versatile and effective tank. It's cheap, has a re-rolling battle cannon if you fire the attached storm bolter at the same target. It also has a fun little quirk where it says you can re-roll to hot and never specifies failed to hit so it works against modifiers as well. Two storm bolters and a re-rolling battle cannon on a leman russ chassis is a good time. It is easily my #1 pick for Leman Russ tanks due to it's versatility. You can plop it down in any list against any foe and it will never be out of place.

An annihilator or demolisher will likely beat it out in anti tank (even then I am no sure due to it not re-rolling to hit) and a punisher will beat it in anti-horde, but the good ol' conqueror will perform well in both fields and beat them in every other.

As for sponsons I typically never take them. I like my tanks cheap and plentiful and shaving off those points really helps with beefing up the rest of the list. I also run conquerors (if you didn't figure that out already) so I am typically moving to get into 24" to use the storm bolters and re-roll off of that. Because of that the sponsons will likely be shooting at -1 or -2 depending on what you are shootings.

Edit: Small side note: You can't take conquerors as a tank commander so there is that.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/10/09 17:00:21


 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 Stux wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
 Elbows wrote:
Oh, I absolutely agree it's super risky...but Russes are generally robust tanks, and I can see a couple or three Demolishers rolling to the center of the table and controlling a large 48" swathe around them. If you added multi-meltas (which, granted are expensive as hell for what they do) you're looking at a not-inconsiderable amount of firepower. It strikes at my "fun" nerve. Something risky and silly, but when it works, very amusing.

I would kill for Space Marine Vindicators to have a double-shot option...I'd take them every game at that point.

I think it could be extremely competitive.
3 Command russ with demo cannons advancing behind a brigade of catachans with straken.
With 3 Manticores and 3 basalisks dropping bombs from the rear. It creates a situation where going for the weaker armor turn 1 with cost you turn 2 when you are taking 2d6 str 10's with ap-3 d6 damage to any elite unit over 5 models.

Devestating.


It's devastating if your enemy has a lot of T8. If they don't, Battlecannons will do better imo

Well - T8 and or Large units of elites (these are kind of rare).


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Awesome Autarch






Stux, you don't think sponsons are worth it in 8th? I understand previous editions they weren't (at all). However in 8th you can split fire, fire everything, and when you benefit from a stratagem the more guns you can fire with a stratagem the better. You don't think even three heavy bolters are worth 30 points?

I admit I'd hesitate to put multi-meltas or something expensive on a Russ, but I don't think you're wasting points on heavy bolters which are, generally speaking, a solid weapon.

PS: Regarding the Demolisher --- how many targets are Toughness 5 nowdays? I know Plaguemarines are --- because at Strength 10 you would be wounding on 2+. Are Tyranid Warriors T5? Aggressors...? lol

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/09 17:07:49


 
   
Made in gb
Rampaging Carnifex





 Elbows wrote:
Stux, you don't think sponsons are worth it in 8th? I understand previous editions they weren't (at all). However in 8th you can split fire, fire everything, and when you benefit from a stratagem the more guns you can fire with a stratagem the better. You don't think even three heavy bolters are worth 30 points?

I admit I'd hesitate to put multi-meltas or something expensive on a Russ, but I don't think you're wasting points on heavy bolters which are, generally speaking, a solid weapon.

PS: Regarding the Demolisher --- how many targets are Toughness 5 nowdays? I know Plaguemarines are --- because at Strength 10 you would be wounding on 2+. Are Tyranid Warriors T5? Aggressors...? lol


We're talking about an army where 33pts buys you a Heavy Mortar Squad

Problem is Grinding Advance doesn't apply to sponsons, so you're generally hitting on 5s for normal Russes. They're worth it on Commanders though with the better BS.

Custodes are T5. As are Aggressors and Inceptors. Tyranid Warriors are T4 sadly, despite appearances :(

Note that none of these usually come in squads of 5+ though, so you won't get d6 shots. And against infantry you want more shots, so on balance the Battlecannon wins again for me.
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






Custodian gaurds/wardens/terms. DG terms. Venoms/raiders/ravagers.
Hive Gaurd

Really it's not a very impressive list.

Grots are usually in 5+ man squads - so the d6 damage is totally relevant vs them. Same with custodes bikes (still wounding them on 3's though) Harlie bikes are often in 6 man squads (with 3 W so kill about twice as many with d6 vs d3)

Stux - IMO - 9 HB shots is better than d6 ignore LOS bolters. Yeah - you get 2W with the mortar but HB on russ seems auto include for me.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/09 17:23:13


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in us
Awesome Autarch






Stux,

Fair points. I'm absolutely not arguing the Demolisher is better than the Battle Cannon...just that it's way the feth cooler and would be much more amusing to get it to work in a game. Very anti-meta if that makes sense.

"How was your game?"
"Dude I got...my ass kicked...by some Demolishers?"


 
   
Made in gb
Rampaging Carnifex





 Elbows wrote:
Stux,

Fair points. I'm absolutely not arguing the Demolisher is better than the Battle Cannon...just that it's way the feth cooler and would be much more amusing to get it to work in a game. Very anti-meta if that makes sense.

"How was your game?"
"Dude I got...my ass kicked...by some Demolishers?"



That's totally fair!

They aren't bad, you're not hamstringing yourself in a normal game. If you like them, go nuts
   
Made in us
The Last Chancer Who Survived




On moon miranda.

Im a big fan of the HB sponsons. Your not having to move Russ tanks all the time so they can fire at full effect often, they're relatively cheap, multiple shots means the -1 to hit on the move hurts less, and with the ability to split fire makes the Russ a bit more flexible.

To be honest, I think my favorite Russ config this edition is the old school classic, especially if you're taking a horde of em, BC with hull LC and sponson HB's. 180pts, able to engage a wide array of targets competentlt but without being the best at any one thing.

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

Heavy Gear Painting Log, Northern Guard, Southern Republican Army, and Terrain
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in us
Awesome Autarch






feth I don't even play guard - but my buddy does and we're always kicking around ideas.

 
   
Made in us
Battle-tested Knight Castellan Pilot






What about the hull weapons on the Russes? What do you usually choose for that? Back in 7th, I think people would recommend lascannons on the hull and then something like HBs on the sponsons if anything.

SG

40K - Imperial Knights (House Hawkshroud - WIP), Tyranids (Hive Fleet Behemoth), T'au Empire (T'au Sept)
AoS - Not sure yet

*** I only play for fun. I do not play competitively. *** 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






 Vaktathi wrote:
Im a big fan of the HB sponsons. Your not having to move Russ tanks all the time so they can fire at full effect often, they're relatively cheap, multiple shots means the -1 to hit on the move hurts less, and with the ability to split fire makes the Russ a bit more flexible.

To be honest, I think my favorite Russ config this edition is the old school classic, especially if you're taking a horde of em, BC with hull LC and sponson HB's. 180pts, able to engage a wide array of targets competentlt but without being the best at any one thing.

I have 3 of those. Standard Arse kicking supreme command right there. Got the Hull mount magnetized - sometimes HB - sometimes LC.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/09 17:53:06


If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder 
   
Made in gb
Rampaging Carnifex





 ServiceGames wrote:
What about the hull weapons on the Russes? What do you usually choose for that? Back in 7th, I think people would recommend lascannons on the hull and then something like HBs on the sponsons if anything.

SG


Mine all have Lascannons. I take a Russ to hurt big things, the Lascannon helps with that.
   
Made in us
The Last Chancer Who Survived




On moon miranda.

 Xenomancers wrote:
 Vaktathi wrote:
Im a big fan of the HB sponsons. Your not having to move Russ tanks all the time so they can fire at full effect often, they're relatively cheap, multiple shots means the -1 to hit on the move hurts less, and with the ability to split fire makes the Russ a bit more flexible.

To be honest, I think my favorite Russ config this edition is the old school classic, especially if you're taking a horde of em, BC with hull LC and sponson HB's. 180pts, able to engage a wide array of targets competentlt but without being the best at any one thing.

I have 3 of those. Standard Arse kicking supreme command right there. Got the Hull mount magnetized - sometimes HB - sometimes LC.
Aye, tis a glorious setup, and appropriately functional probably for the first time since 2E really. I really like that config and it works for both HS and HQ tanks rather well.

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

Heavy Gear Painting Log, Northern Guard, Southern Republican Army, and Terrain
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
 
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