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Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought during 30K the armour style for Termies was different, more like Cataphractii armour.
So why isn't the default Chaos Termie armour more like that? Ya know, beside 30k armour be designed by GW later

Aside from Renegades that joined after the Heresy, OG Chaos Legion Marines shouldn't have newer-styled Termie armour
Any thoughts?

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Tartaros, Cataphractii & Indomitus armour were all used during the Heresy. The older Chaos Terminator kits look like Indomitus because that's what the Loyalist (GW plastic) ones looked like. The newer Chaos Terminators like the Scarab Occult and Blightlords look like the other types.

That makes sense, thanx. I always thought the Indominus was post-Heresy

 Galef wrote:
That makes sense, thanx. I always thought the Indominus was post-Heresy

That's GW/FW messing with the timeline. Iron Hands Gorgon Terminators wear modified Indomitus, but I think they're the only HH unit that does. There's also the Saturnine and Arkonak (possibly post-HH) which we haven't seen yet.

Also too, remember that at the time of the production of the current plastic Chaos Terminator kit, they were trying to eliminate the Legions as a thing and push Renegades. The Indominus Pattern Terminator Kit was probably already saved on their CAD designs, so it was easier just to make a Chaos version of everything.

The intent was that all Chaos Stuff is modern Imperial stuff with horns and spikes stuck on as the fell to chaos.

Thankfully people were having none of that Renegade BS and they started giving us the Legions back.

As far as Forge World is concerned they have pretty well established that all 3 Terminator types were around and kicking in 30k, even basic Terminator units can be equipped with all three. Indomitable was the newest I think though, but it was more of a side-was improvement, easier to make than Tartaros or Cataphractii but less maneuverable than the former and less protection than the latter.

They also are based on the original chaos terminators and they in turn were chaos-ified versions of the only terminator armour. (1st edition). There wasn’t as much of this fancy pre or post heresy. Most marines wore mk6 armour even in the original heresy game (space marine). They were simpler and better times heresey wise.

The real reason is because thats what all Terminator armor looked like when the original models were designed. Chaos terminators were Loyalist terminators with spiky bits.

After the fact, GW fudged around with timelines and stuff to justify all the cool new Heresy models.

The Traitor legions did tend to have more access to the more advanced(at the time) equipment over the Loyalists, so that could be a justification for why the Traitors had more of the "modern" terminator armor while the Loyalists have more access to the other types.

 Galef wrote:
That makes sense, thanx. I always thought the Indominus was post-Heresy

Yeah that's forgeoworld fudging up, Indomitus was a new armour variant, but then they brought out tartaros pattern with the imperial eagle on the chest and a crux terminatus at the time of the HH so they had to change a few things lol Though it makes sense that they would have a mitch match of armour as CSM scavenge a lot of their resources.

 Galef wrote:
That makes sense, thanx. I always thought the Indominus was post-Heresy

Seeing imperium doesnt' invent new stuff all that much...There's very little stuff that WASN'T used in heresy that is used later. Land raider crusader and predator annihilator being biggest things.

tneva82 wrote:

 Galef wrote:
That makes sense, thanx. I always thought the Indominus was post-Heresy

Seeing imperium doesnt' invent new stuff all that much...There's very little stuff that WASN'T used in heresy that is used later. Land raider crusader and predator annihilator being biggest things.

Even at that, the crusader is just a normal landraider with hurricane bolters, not really new, still completely based on the STC as with the annihilator. The only new thing is the repulsor, but that's still pretty much a mish mash of previous STC tech.

Aside from the actual reason (all Terminators used to look like that) a post-hoc background justification could be that Indomitus is the easiest Terminator pattern to keep operating, so it is the most common within the Eye, what with the crappy logistical situation of most Traitors and Renegades. Rubric Terminators don't have to worry about silly things like maintenance, and neither to Death Guard Terminators. As Indomitus is supposed to be easier to construct, it is most likely easier to maintain.

Indomitus definitely exists pre-Heresy, but it is basically the MkV power armour equivalent for Terminator armour- the relatively cheap and nasty version.

beast_gts wrote:

 Galef wrote:
That makes sense, thanx. I always thought the Indominus was post-Heresy

That's GW/FW messing with the timeline. Iron Hands Gorgon Terminators wear modified Indomitus, but I think they're the only HH unit that does. There's also the Saturnine and Arkonak (possibly post-HH) which we haven't seen yet.

Saturnine is definitely pre-Heresy (mentioned in the FW HH books several times, but we otherwise know nothing of it, except that it is broadly equivalent to the others. It would be interesting if it looked like a sort of proto-Aegis pattern, as Titan is a moon of Saturn. Arkonak I think is unknown, but the suggestion is that it is the Terminator equivalent to MkVIII power armour, and therefore post-Heresy. It was only mentioned in some of the Minotaurs FW fluff, if I remember correctly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Galef wrote:
That makes sense, thanx. I always thought the Indominus was post-Heresy

Seeing imperium doesnt' invent new stuff all that much...There's very little stuff that WASN'T used in heresy that is used later. Land raider crusader and predator annihilator being biggest things.

Even at that, the crusader is just a normal landraider with hurricane bolters, not really new, still completely based on the STC as with the annihilator. The only new thing is the repulsor, but that's still pretty much a mish mash of previous STC tech.

The plastic Landspeeder and the Razorback are also post-Heresy. I think there are other things I'm forgetting right now.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
but then they brought out tartaros pattern with the imperial eagle on the chest and a crux terminatus at the time of the HH

AFAIK those Tartaros Terminators were part of the Red Scorpions / Vraks releases and were meant to be post-Heresy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Haighus wrote:
Saturnine is definitely pre-Heresy (mentioned in the FW HH books several times, but we otherwise know nothing of it, except that it is broadly equivalent to the others. It would be interesting if it looked like a sort of proto-Aegis pattern, as Titan is a moon of Saturn. Arkonak I think is unknown, but the suggestion is that it is the Terminator equivalent to MkVIII power armour, and therefore post-Heresy. It was only mentioned in some of the Minotaurs FW fluff, if I remember correctly.

Sorry, I was referring to just the Arkonak pattern as being post-Heresy - and it is only mentioned as being used in quantity by the Minotaurs.

beast_gts wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
but then they brought out tartaros pattern with the imperial eagle on the chest and a crux terminatus at the time of the HH

AFAIK those Tartaros Terminators were part of the Red Scorpions / Vraks releases and were meant to be post-Heresy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Haighus wrote:
Saturnine is definitely pre-Heresy (mentioned in the FW HH books several times, but we otherwise know nothing of it, except that it is broadly equivalent to the others. It would be interesting if it looked like a sort of proto-Aegis pattern, as Titan is a moon of Saturn. Arkonak I think is unknown, but the suggestion is that it is the Terminator equivalent to MkVIII power armour, and therefore post-Heresy. It was only mentioned in some of the Minotaurs FW fluff, if I remember correctly.

Sorry, I was referring to just the Arkonak pattern as being post-Heresy - and it is only mentioned as being used in quantity by the Minotaurs.

I was wondering if you meant it that way Yeah, it has never been mentioned again, I think FW quietly dropped the idea. They've name-dropped Saturnine enough that I hope we see that one though.

beast_gts wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
but then they brought out tartaros pattern with the imperial eagle on the chest and a crux terminatus at the time of the HH

AFAIK those Tartaros Terminators were part of the Red Scorpions / Vraks releases and were meant to be post-Heresy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Haighus wrote:
Saturnine is definitely pre-Heresy (mentioned in the FW HH books several times, but we otherwise know nothing of it, except that it is broadly equivalent to the others. It would be interesting if it looked like a sort of proto-Aegis pattern, as Titan is a moon of Saturn. Arkonak I think is unknown, but the suggestion is that it is the Terminator equivalent to MkVIII power armour, and therefore post-Heresy. It was only mentioned in some of the Minotaurs FW fluff, if I remember correctly.

Sorry, I was referring to just the Arkonak pattern as being post-Heresy - and it is only mentioned as being used in quantity by the Minotaurs.

Those original models were 30k models, they were only available in the HH section on the FW website, not the 40k one, when they first came out.

I thought the original squad of 5 Tartaros Terminators came out before the FW Horus Heresy series. It was just after they released the original resin Mk II, Mk III, Mk IV, and Mk V squads. At the time, the only rules for these were the Space Marine codices, and the Tartaros Terminators were meant to be an alternative to the plastic squad. It is why the original character upgrade pack for the Tartaros Terminators had a Storm shield and Thunderhammer combo in it, something unavailable to HH Terminators until Book 2 at the earliest (with Salamanders) and really Book 3 (with Imperial Fists, who use a Storm shield identical to the 40k version). This was before FW even had a Horus Heresy section of their website, and for awhile you could find Tartaros Terminators in both the 40k and HH sections.

I thought the success of these early resin kits is what prompted the FW HH books in the first place.

Read Wolfsbane.
Horus didn’t just split the Primarchs and their Legions down the middle, he also managed to split the Mechanicum.

I would kill for some modern Saturnine sculpts, what weapons were they supposed to be equipped with? I’ve seen them equipped with the traditional Combi-bolter, and power Fist but with an additional weapon mount between their shoulders. Thoughts?

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:


Those original models were 30k models, they were only available in the HH section on the FW website, not the 40k one, when they first came out.

They came out in April 2012:

https://www.beastsofwar.com/sci-fi-wargaming/forge-world-unveils-tartaros-pattern-terminators/

The Horus Heresy line didn't launch till Betrayal was released in October 2012.

There's also the notion of the Traitor Legions scavenging armour from defeated Loyalist enemies.

A lot of it comes down to GW never really doing a good job of putting together a concrete difference between the older legions/ splinter groups and newer traitors that feel post heresy. The Legions and more recent renegades really should have semi separate model lines/ books.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
A lot of it comes down to GW never really doing a good job of putting together a concrete difference between the older legions/ splinter groups and newer traitors that feel post heresy. The Legions and more recent renegades really should have semi separate model lines/ books.

But then you also have the weird time-wimey nonsense of the Warp. Some groups of CSM that appear from the Eye of Terror may have just fled from the Heresy in their point of view, yet almost 10,000 years will have passed in real space.
So basically you can justify your Chaos Marines having any aesthetic of armour you want.

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HoundsofDemos wrote:
A lot of it comes down to GW never really doing a good job of putting together a concrete difference between the older legions/ splinter groups and newer traitors that feel post heresy. The Legions and more recent renegades really should have semi separate model lines/ books.

I'd love for them to eventually split the chaos codex between "legions of chaos" and "renegade marines"

makes legions use a lotta older stuff, and a lot more demonic stuff, well renegades are more "space marines with a dash of chaos"