Questions about the ork 'loot it' stratagem

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**Kap'n Krump**

Couple questions about the new 'Loot It' stratagem

For reference, the loot it stratagem says, quote,

" Use this stratagem when a vehicle unit is destroyed within 3" of an Ork Infantry unit from your army. Improve the save characteristic of that infantry unit by 1.....'

Question #1:

If used on mega armor, would that increase the save characteristic to a 1+? 1s still fail, of course, but this would, in essence, reduce the AP of all enemy weapons by 1 for the game.

Is there anything that limits save characteristics to not be better than a 2+? I didn't see anything in the BRB.

Question #2:

If a unit is embarked on a vehicle, and said transport is destroyed, can the unit loot the destroyed vehicle after disembarking?

**BaconCatBug**

Kap'n Krump wrote:
Couple questions about the new 'Loot It' stratagem

For reference, the loot it stratagem says, quote,

" Use this stratagem when a vehicle unit is destroyed within 3" of an Ork Infantry unit from your army. Improve the save characteristic of that infantry unit by 1.....'

Question #1:

If used on mega armor, would that increase the save characteristic to a 1+? 1s still fail, of course, but this would, in essence, reduce the AP of all enemy weapons by 1 for the game.

Is there anything that limits save characteristics to not be better than a 2+? I didn't see anything in the BRB.

Question #2:

If a unit is embarked on a vehicle, and said transport is destroyed, can the unit loot the destroyed vehicle after disembarking?

Q1) You are correct, they get a 1+ save. You are correct in that

BRB Page 181 wrote:"A roll of 1 always fails, irrespective of any modifiers that may apply".

Nothing in the BRB limits the save characteristic. The only limit is

BRB Page 175 wrote:"Note that, regardless of the source, characteristics of ‘-’ can never be modified, and the Strength, Toughness and Leadership characteristics of a model can never be modified below 1."

thus we can deduce that all other characteristics can be modified below 1. I assume GW are going to errata this to say "to a maximum of 3+" or similar like other save improving effects because they don't hire proofreaders.

Q2) No, they cannot. You can't measure to the unit while it is embarked, so they cannot be within 3" of the transport when it is destroyed. The model is removed after the unit disembarks, but the transport is already destroyed when it loses it's last wound. The BRB FAQ has a step by step list on how disembarking from a destroyed transport works.

**Kap'n Krump**

Ok, thanks!

I do like the idea of meganobz with grot shields and a 1+ save.

**ikeulhu**

Q2) Yes you can. The destroyed vehicle model is not removed until after you place the units that were embarked within. Removal occurs during the last step of the process, allowing the chance to use the stratagem before so. This was asked and answered during the live stream of Orks VS Knights last week. Unfortunately, you will get people arguing otherwise until it gets an official FAQ answer.

**BaconCatBug**

ikeulhu wrote:
Q2) Yes you can. The destroyed vehicle model is not removed until after you place the units that were embarked within. Removal occurs during the last step of the process, allowing the chance to use the stratagem before so. This was asked and answered during the live stream of Orks VS Knights last week. Unfortunately, you will get people arguing otherwise until it gets an official FAQ answer.

Well, the "livestream" was wrong. The stratagem is used when the vehicle is destroyed, not when the vehicle is removed. Yes, the vehicle is removed as part of the being destroyed process, but it's done so at the end of the process, while being destroyed happens at the beginning. If they want embarked units to benefit they need to either change the rule or Special Snowflake FAQ it.

Oh Man-Emperor, is this gonna be another Gate of Infinity/Da Jump/DMC debacle? It's going to be another Gate of Infinity/Da Jump/DMC debacle, isn't it. :(

**p5freak**

What happens if you reach 0+ and play the stratagem again ? Does it go to -1+ ? I see nothing that says each unit can only be improved once.

**BaconCatBug**

p5freak wrote:
What happens if you reach 0+ and play the stratagem again ? Does it go to -1+ ? I see nothing that says each unit can only be improved once.

Kap'n Krump didn't include the full rule. The second line says "A unit can only be affected by this Stratagem once per battle, and once affected, cannot be selected for the Mob Up Stratagem." If it didn't include this line, then yes you could go to 0+ or -1+ an unlimited number of times. However GW are only 99% incompetent and remembered to stop that from happening.

**p5freak**

BaconCatBug wrote:
p5freak wrote:
What happens if you reach 0+ and play the stratagem again ? Does it go to -1+ ? I see nothing that says each unit can only be improved once.
Kap'n Krump didn't include the full rule. The second line says "A unit can only be affected by this Stratagem once per battle, and once affected, cannot be selected for the Mob Up Stratagem."

Ok, now its clear.

**Ghaz**

BaconCatBug wrote:
ikeulhu wrote:
Q2) Yes you can. The destroyed vehicle model is not removed until after you place the units that were embarked within. Removal occurs during the last step of the process, allowing the chance to use the stratagem before so. This was asked and answered during the live stream of Orks VS Knights last week. Unfortunately, you will get people arguing otherwise until it gets an official FAQ answer.
Well, the "livestream" was wrong. The stratagem is used when the vehicle is destroyed, not when the vehicle is removed. Yes, the vehicle is removed as part of the being destroyed process, but it's done so at the end of the process, while being destroyed happens at the beginning. If they want embarked units to benefit they need to either change the rule or Special Snowflake FAQ it.

Oh Man-Emperor, is this gonna be another Gate of Infinity/Da Jump/DMC debacle? It's going to be another Gate of Infinity/Da Jump/DMC debacle, isn't it. :(

40kfaq@gwplc.com

Now's the time to send it in for the FAQ before they get inundated with questions when the codex goes on sale this weekend.

**BaconCatBug**

You know as well as I do they don't read that email. If they did my signature wouldn't be as long as it is.

**ikeulhu**

BaconCatBug wrote:

Oh Man-Emperor, is this gonna be another Gate of Infinity/Da Jump/DMC debacle? It's going to be another Gate of Infinity/Da Jump/DMC debacle, isn't it. :(

Yes, unfortunately it will exactly be like that until they FAQ it, which hopefully comes in the first FAQ for the codex two weeks from release. While the RAI is fairly clear, the RAW is admittedly less so due to the wording of the stratagem stating the unit must be within 3" when the vehicle is destroyed, not removed.

**bullyboy**

You don't even get to do an emergency disembark until a vehicle is destroyed. Removing and Destroying are not the same. A vehicle being destroyed is the first step of the process.
I'd have no issue with them ruling that it can be done (would make sense), but currently the rules don't support it.

**Kap'n Krump**

Oh, yeah, sorry I didn't include the full rule. I just wanted to include the part I thought was relevant to my questions, but good call.

@ikeulhu - do you have a reference to the live stream where they did said that, on youtube or something? I honestly think BCB's explanation makes more sense, but hearing it from the guys who wrote the damn book would carry some weight, for certain.

**ikeulhu**

@Kap'n Krump- it was the battle stream on twitch.tv/warhammer to promote the pre-release of the codex.

**BaconCatBug**

There was a stream where Matt Ward said anyone who has a name beginning with B and plays Ultramarines automatically pass any rolls they need to make. If it's on Twitch then it must be true!

I understand that some people will want to play it as it working even though the rules don't allow it to work, but at least admit that it's not how the rule works rather than using an Appeal to Authority.

**doctortom**

BaconCatBug wrote:
There was a stream where Matt Ward said anyone who has a name beginning with B and plays Ultramarines automatically pass any rolls they need to make. If it's on Twitch then it must be true!

I understand that some people will want to play it as it working even though the rules don't allow it to work, but at least admit that it's not how the rule works rather than using an Appeal to Authority.

Please provide the link to the stream where Matt Ward said that.

I'll agree that for RAW purposes Twitch wouldn't be a source of RAW, but it would be an indication of RAI if the developer of the codex (or other rulebook) made a comment in reference to how rules related to it should be handled.

Just to note, there's a degree of difference between something being on twitch or Facebook, and somebody making up what's said on Twitch or Facebook.

**techsoldaten**

BaconCatBug wrote:
p5freak wrote:
What happens if you reach 0+ and play the stratagem again ? Does it go to -1+ ? I see nothing that says each unit can only be improved once.
Kap'n Krump didn't include the full rule. The second line says "A unit can only be affected by this Stratagem once per battle, and once affected, cannot be selected for the Mob Up Stratagem." If it didn't include this line, then yes you could go to 0+ or -1+ an unlimited number of times. However GW are only 99% incompetent and remembered to stop that from happening.

BCB, you're going soft. That could almost be construed as a compliment.

**xlDuke**

I think it's certainly a debatable problem. For example if the transport is destroyed you "immediately" disembark the unit inside, if you take that to mean "instantly" or "without any intervening time" (apologies for bringing definitions up) you can then play the stratagem and the two things are happening simultaneously. Your previously embarked unit is now measurably within 3" of the transport and an eligible candidate for the stratagem.

However I will be discussing this with my group before it comes up and waiting for an FAQ for a solid answer, the paragraph above is just an observation of mine and probably not how I'll be playing it.

Edit: if the above is correct, it might bring up some issues with Explodes results and embarked units.

**BaconCatBug**

xlDuke wrote:
I think it's certainly a debatable problem. For example if the transport is destroyed you "immediately" disembark the unit inside, if you take that to mean "instantly" or "without any intervening time" (apologies for bringing definitions up) you can then play the stratagem and the two things are happening simultaneously. Your previously embarked unit is now measurably within 3" of the transport and an eligible candidate for the stratagem.

However I will be discussing this with my group before it comes up and waiting for an FAQ for a solid answer, the paragraph above is just an observation of mine and probably not how I'll be playing it.

Edit: if the above is correct, it might bring up some issues with Explodes results and embarked units.

As usual, GW have Special Snowflake (maybe, I'm not really 100% sure if it's Special Snowflake or Clarificatory in this instance) FAQed how disembarking from transports after it's destroyed works.

BRB FAQ 1.3 wrote:Q: How do transports work with regards to disembarking units upon the transport’s destruction?
A: Disembarking from a destroyed transport operates as follows:
1. If the transport has the Explodes ability (or equivalent) roll to see if it explodes and resolve any resulting damage to nearby units.*
2. All models inside immediately disembark following the standard rules for disembarkation.
3. Roll a number of D6 equal to the number of models disembarked in this fashion.
4. Each result of a 1 yields a slain model, and must be allocated to one of the models which disembarked; the controlling player may choose which model.
5. Remove the destroyed transport model.

* Note that if the transport does explode, units being transported are not affected as they are not yet on the battlefield.

For example, a Razorback is transporting a Tactical Squad of five models and one Space Marine Captain when it is destroyed. The Razorback rolls a 6 for its Explodes ability, inflicting D3 mortal wounds on each unit within 6". The six models inside now disembark, and six D6 are rolled. Two of the results are a 1, so two models are slain – the Space Marine player chooses two of the Space Marines from the Tactical Squad. The Razorback model is now removed from the battlefield.

As you can see, you roll for explodes BEFORE the unit disembarks. This means the model has been reduced to 0 wounds before the unit disembarks, thus is destroyed before the unit disembarks. Because you must use the stratagem when the vehicle is destroyed, which means by the time the unit has disembarked it's too late for you to use the stratagem. And in addition at the time the vehicle was destroyed you could not measure the distance between it and the unit embarked because the unit is embarked. (This is of course assuming the transport was reduced to zero wounds, not "slain" by a special effect but that's a silly can of worms only tangentially related.

)

**xlDuke**

So many FAQs I've forgotten about! Thanks for pointing it out.

I might be misunderstanding and I am playing devil's advocate but does my point from before not still stand, except that my comment about potential Explodes issues has been answered by that FAQ?

So the transport is destroyed, I roll for explodes (embarked unit cannot suffer from Explodes as it is not yet on the table), I immediately (without any intervening time) disembark my unit and play the stratagem and find that my unit and its transport are measurably within 3" of each other.

**BaconCatBug**

xlDuke wrote:
So many FAQs I've forgotten about! Thanks for pointing it out.

I might be misunderstanding and I am playing devil's advocate but does my point from before not still stand, except that my comment about potential Explodes issues has been answered by that FAQ?

So the transport is destroyed, I roll for explodes (embarked unit cannot suffer from Explodes as it is not yet on the table), I immediately (without any intervening time) disembark my unit and play the stratagem and find that my unit and its transport are measurably within 3" of each other.

Because once you've disembarked your unit it's too late to use the stratagem. Immediately is not the same as Simultaneously so you can't use the sequencing rules in this instance. Disembarking doesn't happen simultaneously with disembarking, you disembark immediately after the transport is destroyed.

**deviantduck**

xlDuke wrote:
So many FAQs I've forgotten about! Thanks for pointing it out.

I might be misunderstanding and I am playing devil's advocate but does my point from before not still stand, except that my comment about potential Explodes issues has been answered by that FAQ?

So the transport is destroyed, I roll for explodes (embarked unit cannot suffer from Explodes as it is not yet on the table), I immediately (without any intervening time) disembark my unit and play the stratagem and find that my unit and its transport are measurably within 3" of each other.

The transport is then in a destroyed status while within 3" of a unit and a perfect target for a stratagem. It's the same as if you played the stratagem on a non-transport vehicle. You're playing the stratagem between destroyed and removed actions.

**BaconCatBug**

deviantduck wrote:
xlDuke wrote:
So many FAQs I've forgotten about! Thanks for pointing it out.

I might be misunderstanding and I am playing devil's advocate but does my point from before not still stand, except that my comment about potential Explodes issues has been answered by that FAQ?

So the transport is destroyed, I roll for explodes (embarked unit cannot suffer from Explodes as it is not yet on the table), I immediately (without any intervening time) disembark my unit and play the stratagem and find that my unit and its transport are measurably within 3" of each other.
The transport is then in a destroyed status while within 3" of a unit and a perfect target for a stratagem. It's the same as if you played the stratagem on a non-transport vehicle. You're playing the stratagem between destroyed and removed actions.

If you're playing the stratagem "between destroyed and removed actions" then you're breaking the rules because the stratagem requires you to play it "when a vehicle unit is destroyed." If you wait for the unit to disembark, it's no longer "when a vehicle unit is destroyed." This is like saying I can play "during the movement phase" stratagems after my units arrive at the end of the movement phase. If I play the stratagem after my units arrive at the end of the movement phase, then the units can't have arrived at the end of the movement phase.

**deviantduck**

The stratagem doesn't say immediately and destroyed is a status not an action.

**the_scotsman**

Gw refers to the model in 5 as "the destroyed transport model".

"Destroyed" is therefore a status the vehicle has during the entire process of 1-5 here.

At 3, the unit that was embarked is within 3" of a destroyed vehicle and between 3 and 5 the Stratagem can be used.

Why would the period of time between 3 and 5 here not be "when a vehicle is destroyed"?

I suspect the answer is "because that's the way that the majority of the playerbase and the game designers thinks it works, and any interpretation that BCB can take that puts him at odds with those two groups makes him feel superior."

**BaconCatBug**

deviantduck wrote:
The stratagem doesn't say immediately and destroyed is a status not an action.

BRB Page 181 wrote:If a model’s wounds are reduced to 0, it is either slain or destroyed and removed from play.

That sure sounds like an action to me. Also "it doesn't say I can't" isn't an excuse or argument. The rules are permissive. It also doesn't say I can't flip a coin to deal mortal wounds to every unit on the board either.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, since it all hinges on what axioms we define as our starting point. It's another case of GW's sloppy and ambiguous writing. I hope they errata it to work with the embarked unit as that would be thematically orky, but we'll probably just get a SSFAQ instead (which I dislike but accept as just how things work).

**deviantduck**

the_scotsman wrote:
Gw refers to the model in 5 as "the destroyed transport model".

"Destroyed" is therefore a status the vehicle has during the entire process of 1-5 here.

At 3, the unit that was embarked is within 3" of a destroyed vehicle and between 3 and 5 the Stratagem can be used.

Why would the period of time between 3 and 5 here not be "when a vehicle is destroyed"?

I suspect the answer is "because that's the way that the majority of the playerbase and the game designers thinks it works, and any interpretation that BCB can take that puts him at odds with those two groups makes him feel superior."

Yup. If you can't interrupt for transports with the stratagem, you can't play the stratagem ever. Because the rules say "If a model’s wounds are reduced to 0, it is either slain or destroyed and removed from play." Even on non-transports you have to interrupt the 'destroy and removed' process to measure post-destroy.

**doctortom**

BaconCatBug wrote:
xlDuke wrote:
I think it's certainly a debatable problem. For example if the transport is destroyed you "immediately" disembark the unit inside, if you take that to mean "instantly" or "without any intervening time" (apologies for bringing definitions up) you can then play the stratagem and the two things are happening simultaneously. Your previously embarked unit is now measurably within 3" of the transport and an eligible candidate for the stratagem.

However I will be discussing this with my group before it comes up and waiting for an FAQ for a solid answer, the paragraph above is just an observation of mine and probably not how I'll be playing it.

Edit: if the above is correct, it might bring up some issues with Explodes results and embarked units.
As usual, GW have Special Snowflake (maybe, I'm not really 100% sure if it's Special Snowflake or Clarificatory in this instance) FAQed how disembarking from transports after it's destroyed works.

BRB FAQ 1.3 wrote:Q: How do transports work with regards to disembarking units upon the transport’s destruction?
A: Disembarking from a destroyed transport operates as follows:
1. If the transport has the Explodes ability (or equivalent) roll to see if it explodes and resolve any resulting damage to nearby units.*
2. All models inside immediately disembark following the standard rules for disembarkation.
3. Roll a number of D6 equal to the number of models disembarked in this fashion.
4. Each result of a 1 yields a slain model, and must be allocated to one of the models which disembarked; the controlling player may choose which model.
5. Remove the destroyed transport model.

* Note that if the transport does explode, units being transported are not affected as they are not yet on the battlefield.

For example, a Razorback is transporting a Tactical Squad of five models and one Space Marine Captain when it is destroyed. The Razorback rolls a 6 for its Explodes ability, inflicting D3 mortal wounds on each unit within 6". The six models inside now disembark, and six D6 are rolled. Two of the results are a 1, so two models are slain – the Space Marine player chooses two of the Space Marines from the Tactical Squad. The Razorback model is now removed from the battlefield.
As you can see, you roll for explodes BEFORE the unit disembarks. This means the model has been reduced to 0 wounds before the unit disembarks, thus is destroyed before the unit disembarks. Because you must use the stratagem when the vehicle is destroyed, which means by the time the unit has disembarked it's too late for you to use the stratagem. And in addition at the time the vehicle was destroyed you could not measure the distance between it and the unit embarked because the unit is embarked. (This is of course assuming the transport was reduced to zero wounds, not "slain" by a special effect but that's a silly can of worms only tangentially related. )

You roll for explodes on other units for disembarking, but you roll for whether being destroyed takes out any of the disembarking passengers AFTER the unit disembarks. That would mean the process of the vehicle being destroyed hasn't been completed until after you've had the unit disembark in the first place. If they're affected before disembarking, then affected models wouldn't need to be set up in the first place. This is why it needs a FAQ, there are two contradictory interpretations.

**fe40k**

There are two triggers when a vehicle is destroyed

1) disembark
2) loot it

Although they happen on the same trigger - you don’t get to resolve one after another; simply because - there is no unit to measure to at the time of the vehicles destruction; if there was (such as a non-embarked squad), you could use loot it on that squad.

You can’t have disembark trigger on destruction, have the squad disembark/deploy, then also get to rewind time back to the moment of destruction to play the Strategem on the squad inside. That moment has passed.

**Blndmage**

Is the standing rule that if there are two actions that take place at the same time, te controlling player determines the order? Thus if you're the controlling player, you can choose to place the disembarked models, then use Loot It?