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Okay, so to throw a monkey wrench at my friends (they think I only play Daemons), I have another 50PL list to throw down (yes, we do PL, and that's pretty much it).

8CP Battalion, led by Abbadon (based on conversation in Chaos Tactics thread)

Abbadon the Despoiler PL 12
Sorcerer PL 6
MoTzeentch, Force Stave, Combi-Flamer

Havocs x5 PL 7
4 Lascannons, MoSlaanesh, Combi-Plasma/Power Fist

Havocs x5 PL 7
4 Lascannons, MoSlaanesh, Combi-Plasma/Power Fist


Cultists x10 PL 3
Black Legion
Cultists x10 PL 3
Black Legion
Cultists x10 PL 3
Black Legion

Khorne Berzerkers x10 PL 5
Black Legion, Chainaxe/Chainsword on 9, Twin LCs on Champion, IoWrath
Rhino PL4


8 CP, 50PL



Computer has been acting up and auto-posted before I was done. Berzerkers rush up in their Rhino, Cultists for objectives and reappearance shenanigans, Havocs make noise marines feel obsolete with the sheer number of Lascannon shots they can put out. Sorc gives Abby a better save and prescience/smite where applicable.

Shouldn't it be 10 command points? 3 for playing, 5 for Batallion, and 2 for Abaddon as the warlord?

Assuming you're going to keep Abaddon in the back to buff the Havocs, you might want to consider replacing the Berzerkers + Rhino with another squad of Havocs, more Cultists or a DP to use as a beatstick on whatever gets close.

Battalion only gives 3, doesn’t it? Unless they made adjustments.

 timetowaste85 wrote:
Battalion only gives 3, doesn’t it? Unless they made adjustments.

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/warhammer_40000_rulebook_en.pdf

Read the top of page 2, second column.

Woohoo!! Missed that change!

Yeah. It's nice : )

So your lascannons get a lot more powerful with rerolls and command points. Budget 5 CPs for rerolls with the lascannons, one each turn. It's usually most useful to save them for wound rolls, turning a 1 into a 6 makes a big difference.

With the other 5, give the Havocs Mark of Slannesh and use Endless Cacophony to shoot twice. Best to do this turn 1 and turn 2, just gun down the biggest thing on the table.

This is part of why I would rather see more Cultists or a DP on the board for your army. Those lascannons are the big damage dealers, but they stop being effective the moment they get charged. Bigger Cultist screens make that harder. A DP to smash anything that does get in would be better than the Sorcerer.

Okay, so I redid things a bit, everything is going to be Black Legion, Mark of Slaanesh. Tossed the Berzerkers for some different cult marines. Cult marines, cultists...and havocs getting their jolly on.

Does this work better? Also, it's 1000pts on the dot, 10CP from the Battalion and Abby.

Abaddon the Despoiler 240pts
Daemon Prince with Wings 170pts
Malefic Talon set, Intoxicating Elixer, Slaanesh, Black Legion 10pts

Cultists x10 40pts

Cultists x10 40pts

Cultists x10 40pts


Noise Marines x6 90pts
Blastmaster, Black Legion, Slaanesh, Sonic Blasters 40pts


Havocs x5 65pts
Lascannons x4, Black Legion, Slaanesh 100pts

Havocs x5 65pts
Lascannons x4, Black Legion, Slaanesh 100pts

Are you, uh, playing points or power level? It looks like you switched over from power level to points? Either is fine, but you are going to make different decisions based on what you are playing.

Anyway, my biggest concern with your list is twofold.

1) lack of anti horde. Oh you've got heavy fire power. You've got it in spades. But... for volume of fire, you really just have the Noise Marines. Noise Marines are pretty good shooters, but you don't really have enough of them to make a real difference.

2) Glass Jaw. You have a glass jaw. All of the long range fire power in your list is focused on 16 Marines bodies. Not only that, but just about every single casualty you take on the Havocs is wasting a 38 point las cannon model. If you don't get first turn, and you play against an opponent who can consistently shoot down 7 Marines in cover (not hard even at 1K points) you get completely gutted. You may also struggle to get first turn, since 8 drops at 1K points is on the high side. If you do get first turn you need to make sure you deliver a hammer blow, because your fire base is pretty easy to gut for any army with some shooting worth its salt.

The problem is Abby. Between Abaddon and the Daemon Prince you are spending 410 points. THAT IS OVER 40% of your list on support pieces! Support pieces are very strong, but you actually need enough units for them to support to be worth it. At this point I don't feel you quite have that.

Abby can be good in a low point game. But he tends to need very specific lists that are specifically designed to take advantage of his abilities. Such as Abaddon + a massive hordes of Cultists. Such a list fully utilizes Abaddon's full re-rolls, as well as his moral immunity. It also has the CP to replenish its losses with Tide of Traitors, and typically has a CP advantage over its foes due to Abby. Add to that you can use CP to combo Veterans + Endless Cacophony + Full Re-Rolls to give a 40 man blob some real bite. But the secondary HQ in such a list is usually just an Exalted Champion to be cheap and give the cultists full re-rolls in CQC if and when that happens.

For your list, I would hold off adding in Abbadon until at least 1500+ points, instead I would fill out the list with a cheap Sorcerer and the Prince. Use the points saved on switching Abby with a Sorcerer to get some more bodies on the table. Maybe a larger cultist squad. 7 models per havoc squad so you aren't bleeding Las Cannons after every wound. Push up to 10 Noise Marines so you can get that second Blast Master, etc.

Right now your support to guns ratio is off, and its messing with the mojo of your list.

@akaean - I always enjoy our back and forth on this board. Offering counterpoints to your concerns because I'd like to hear your response.

1) Anti-Horde - those 30 Cultists can do a good job tying up Horde units, leaving the shooters free to fire. At 50 PL / 1000 points, they are doing the job 60 would do in a list twice that size - which is more than I would ever take.

2) Glass Jaw - yes, but consider that it's very effective firepower, with rerolls to hit plus the turn one cover strategem. It's possible to shut down enemy shooting by going second and get a big advantage by sniping tanks / elites from across the board. Plus he's got a couple big beatsticks going for anything that gets close enough to charge.

I see this as a list that's either going to get a big lead early-game or one that's going to duke it out close range with elite characters. But I'm not sure it's set up to fall apart in the manner you suggest.

It mirrors a style I play at 2k points, the question for me is how that translates to smaller armies. I suspect it would be more effective, but wouldn't know without some playtesting.

I did switch it to 1000pts which is roughly the equivalent to 50PL; if playing with friends, I’d just clear it with them.

And thanks Tech; if it sounds similar to what you run, only smaller, and you have success then I think I should be in good shape!
The nice thing about my army being small is that theirs is too (unless they’re running Horde Orks, in which case speedbump cultists and pour as many shots as possible before Abby and his pointy-handed buddy get into the swing of things).

@techsodaten I definitely enjoy talking with you with respect to the finer points of chaos tactics. the better we get the more effectively we can bring death to the loyalist dogs. To address your points.;

1) Anti-Horde: squads of 10 cultists are good for doing 2 things, screening vs deep striking and charges, and being a low profile unit to run to an objective. As an actual combat unit they add nothing. In this list, they can delay charges and units from reaching your lines, but they will do relatively little to actually help you chew through that Orc Horde before it reaches your lines.

2) Glass Jaw: I'm not saying that this type of build or firepower isn't effective. I want to clarify that I don't think there is anything wrong with this style of list, and I actually definitely agree it is highly effective at the 2K point level, and probably highly effective at 1500 points. But at 2K points, Abaddon + the Prince is 20.5% of your list. At 1K points Abaddon those characters are 41%. Abaddon's re-roll failed to hit rolls gets stronger and stronger the more units he is affecting, and I just don't think he is effecting enough units at 1K points. Generally speaking my list building theory is that priority number one is getting enough power into the list, and once you have a sufficient amount of firepower you focus on adding synergy to get more out of those guns. This means in low point games you want to focus on numbers and firepower and take bargain support for them.

Its about looking at the cost effectiveness of your support options. Prescience + the Daemon Prince's re-roll 1s aura is still good support. Delightful Agonies is a great spell for keeping your units around a bit longer. In my opinion due to the nature of the army focusing on small units of elite MEQ with heavy fire power, at this points level in my opinion you don't need full re-rolls as opposed to just re-roll 1s from the Prince, and the small elite nature of the squads makes the moral immunity less important.

Let me put this another way, at 1K points would you rather have Abaddon + Prince and 2 squads of Havocs, or a Sorcerer + Prince and 3 squads of Havocs? At this points level I'd rather have that third squad.

I wouldn't put too much faith in the cover stratagem. Its nice, but it isn't really going to help this style of list. It does nothing for Havocs who deploy in Cover anyway (which will basically be always), and most armies that fancy themselves as "shooty" have no problem chewing through 5+ Marine bodies in cover per turn.

This list will play most effectively against elite melee infantry style list- like a Zerker Rush World Eaters. It has the firepower to effortlessly dismount them. The chaff bodies to matador their charges, and great anti-elite counter charge from the Prince and Abby to deal the finishing blow.

This list will depend on getting first turn vs vehicle heavy shooting lists. Most vehicle heavy shooting lists like Imperial Guard with multiple Russes and Basilisks are going to be easily able to blast apart the Havocs on turn one. Once shooting is gutted, the list is left with the proposition of slogging Abaddon and a prince across the table to get to melee unsupported. If the list can get first turn and trash the Guard long range fire power the game is basically in the bag. Same deal for Knights (say a Knight + 2 Armigers) and maybe the loyal 32. If you get first turn and bring down a Knight + an Armiger you're in a great spot. If the Knights get first turn and hit the Havocs with Avenger Gatlin Cannons, and Auto Cannons... the list is in a lot of trouble.

Its just such a coin flip at this point. Doesn't make for a good game. We'll ignore the fact that the list is going to have an exceptional amount of trouble dealing with an Orc horde, and Slaanesh have mercy if those vehicles that need to be destroyed turn one are Artillery and deployed out of Line of Sight...