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So, we currently have a little discussion in the Ork Tactics thread about how Stratagems and Kultur affect embarked units; and the difference between Modifiers and Aura Abilities.

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Specifically, we're looking at two cases:
Stratagem: "Long Uncontrolled Bursts" - Select an ORK VEHICLE that can FLY. Until the end of the phase, add 1 to hit rolls for shooting attacks made by that unit that target enemy units that can FLY.
Kultur: "Freebooters" - Add 1 to hit rolls for attacks made by models with this KULTUR if any other friendly unit with this KULTUR within 24" has destroyed an enemy unit this phase.

What is a Modifier, and what is an Aura/Ability?:
Modifier - This is actually undefined in the rulebook, but commonly references +/- X affects that are applied to dice.
Aura Ability - Some units – usually Characters – have abilities that affect certain models within a given range.

Open Topped/Transports:
Open Topped - Models embarked on this model can attack in their Shooting phase. Measure the range and line of sight from any point on this model’s base. When they do so, any restrictions or modifiers that apply to this model also apply to its passengers; for example, the passengers cannot shoot if this model has Fallen Back in the same turn, cannot shoot (except with Pistols) if this model is within 1" of an enemy unit, and so on.
Transports - Embarked units cannot normally do anything or be affected in any way whilst they are embarked. Unless specifically stated, abilities that affect other units within a certain range have no effect whilst the unit that has the ability is embarked.

-Where's the point of contention?-
How does "Kultur: Freebooters" interact with Open Topped transports, and their embarked passengers?

In a previous thread, we've established that "Long Uncontrolled Bursts" will transfer to the embarked passengers, as long as they're shooting at a unit with FLY - as this is a modifier, and is eligible to transfer via Open Topped.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/766302.page
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My take is that "Kultur: Freebooters" is affecting the TRANSPORT (as it's a Freebooters model), and since the "+1 to attack rolls" is a modifier, it would transfer to the units inside.

It's the usual case of GW sloppy writing and both answers being true (but mutually exclusive) for a specific value of truth.

Personally I would say that yes, because it's a modifier it applies to the occupants (but remember the modifier only works for the contents if the contents are also Freebootaz).

Yes, long uncontroled burst would affect the embarked unit but this can only work on a chinork warkopta as it is the only flying transport we have.
Secondly, only the transport needs to be freebooter in order to pass the +1 to the embarked unit, because the unit is not affected by freebooter clan rule, is affected by open topped and the vehicle is the one affected by freebooter clan rule.
Anyway most transports need to be the same clan as their passengers so there wont be too much trouble... though chinork warkopta does not have this restriction so you could get the +2 with a non freebooter unit inside a freebooter warkopta.

Other interactions:

If you are using a non freebooter transport with flash gitz inside (Flash gitz being from a freebooter detachment) then they would not benefit from the clan rule even if another freebooter unit destroys an enemy unit within 24" of the transport.

Also if a freebooter unit inside a transport (doesnt matter if it is freebooter or not) destroys an enemy unit, other Freebooters units within 24" of the transport wont get the +1 neither, as you cant measure those 24" from the unit, only from the transport (which is not the same)

 Grotsnik1 wrote:
Yes, long uncontroled burst would affect the embarked unit but this can only work on a chinork warkopta as it is the only flying transport we have.

But the Chinork doesn't have Open-topped, does it? Can't find it on the datasheet.

 Singleton Mosby wrote:

 Grotsnik1 wrote:
Yes, long uncontroled burst would affect the embarked unit but this can only work on a chinork warkopta as it is the only flying transport we have.

But the Chinork doesn't have Open-topped, does it? Can't find it on the datasheet.

Blimey. That's a bit of a hefty oversight!

I just checked and yeah, no open topped on the datasheet, unless it was FAQ'd in, then units embarked on a chinork can't shoot anyway!

The Chinork was errata'd to have Open Topped.

Hey fe40k, could you add the following rule to the first post here? It is a very relevant one for the kultur question.

Warhammer 40k Rulebook faq page 6:

“Q: If a transport with the open-topped ability (e.g. a Trukk) is within range of an aura ability, are units that are embarked upon that transport affected by that ability?

A: No.”

Snotrokkit wrote:
Hey fe40k, could you add the following rule to the first post here? It is a very relevant one for the kultur question.

Warhammer 40k Rulebook faq page 6:

“Q: If a transport with the open-topped ability (e.g. a Trukk) is within range of an aura ability, are units that are embarked upon that transport affected by that ability?

A: No.”

Just keep in mind that the transport does get affected by the aura, and if it happens to be a modifer or restriction then it passes from the vehicle to the embarked unit.

I have asked on the largest french 40k forum what people/TOs think about the +1 to hit transmission to passengers. I see here it is leaning towards "it affects the transport, so it affects passengers".

Well, that's correct because +1 to hit is explicitly a modifier. Normally auras don't get transferred to the passengers but the open-topped rule provides an exception when it's a modifier or restriction.

If the aura was something like: Reroll hit rolls of 2, then the guys inside wouldn't be affected by it since that isn't a modifier to the roll. However since the aura actually grants a modifier the guys inside get it.


However, I don't believe the intent was to give the guys inside the +1 from the stratagem. It does per the RAW grant them the extra +1 due to the way open topped works, but its obviously meant to give the bonus just to the flyer itself and not the guys inside.

Ok thanks guys ! Indeed modifiers are transmitted, the more I think about it the more compelling the argument is. Else passenger heavy weapons could shoot without penalty etc. However if anyone sees a TO ruling backing this up it would be great (some people where I play have trust issues when it comes to 40k rules hah hah)

 Eihnlazer wrote:
If the aura was something like: Reroll hit rolls of 2, then the guys inside wouldn't be affected by it since that isn't a modifier to the roll. However since the aura actually grants a modifier the guys inside get it.


However, I don't believe the intent was to give the guys inside the +1 from the stratagem. It does per the RAW grant them the extra +1 due to the way open topped works, but its obviously meant to give the bonus just to the flyer itself and not the guys inside.

It's not a stratagem, it's the bonus granted by the kultur which isn't automatic like other ones but must be triggered. Orks from other kulturs get their bonus while embarked, like the re-rolls for Bad Moons or Deathskulls, this one is no different, it just needs to be triggered, that's all. It's obviously intended.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
If the aura was something like: Reroll hit rolls of 2, then the guys inside wouldn't be affected by it since that isn't a modifier to the roll. However since the aura actually grants a modifier the guys inside get it.


However, I don't believe the intent was to give the guys inside the +1 from the stratagem. It does per the RAW grant them the extra +1 due to the way open topped works, but its obviously meant to give the bonus just to the flyer itself and not the guys inside.

Did you write the codex? Unless you did, how do you know the intent? Even if you know the "intent", it means diddly because the rule is explicitly clear. If they want to change how the rule works, they can change how the rule works.

It's "obviously" intended for my Space Marines to have 40 wounds, and for my Plasmaguns to not explode 50% more at night. However the rules don't say that, so they don't.

You use "RaW" like it's some sort of slur. "Oh, yeah it works... RaW". Do you make your opponents roll to hit when shooting their weapons? Because that's "RaW" too.

Actually BCB, I was just pointing out my opinion on the fact as stated in my post. RAW its clear that it stacks and I wouldn't argue otherwise.

My opinion only has to do with the spirit of the game, in which I don't think it was intended to stack. I feel its just a side effect of multiple rules (all designed for fun factor) and not actually meant to combo by the rules writer.

I wouldn't use it myself, but if anyone wants to please feel free.

As of the FAQ it's been stated that stratagems used on a transport do not effect the embarked unit, so no Long Uncontrolled Bursts on a Chinork Warkopta also benefitting the unit inside. As it currently stands I would say that a transport with the Freebooterz kulture does work on embarked Freebooterz, it is a modifier and should transfer.

xlDuke wrote:
As of the FAQ it's been stated that stratagems used on a transport do not effect the embarked unit, so no Long Uncontrolled Bursts on a Chinork Warkopta also benefitting the unit inside. As it currently stands I would say that a transport with the Freebooterz kulture does work on embarked Freebooterz, it is a modifier and should transfer.

That FAQ doesn't stop the open topped rule transferring the modifier from the stratagem, what the FAQ does is reinforce the RaW that stratagems can't directly affect or target units inside a transport. Using Long Uncontrolled Bursts on a transport with open topped doesn't benefit the unit inside, it benefits the transport, which then uses the open-topped rule to pass the modifier to the unit inside.

I see your point but I disagree. The modifier is coming from a stratagem and stratagems are explicitly forbidden from also benefitting the embarked unit. If we were to allow the +1 to hit to affect the embarked unit, we would be allowing a stratagem to affect a unit embarked on a transport, which we're told we can't do.

xlDuke wrote:

Spoiler:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

xlDuke wrote:
As of the FAQ it's been stated that stratagems used on a transport do not effect the embarked unit, so no Long Uncontrolled Bursts on a Chinork Warkopta also benefitting the unit inside. As it currently stands I would say that a transport with the Freebooterz kulture does work on embarked Freebooterz, it is a modifier and should transfer.

That FAQ doesn't stop the open topped rule transferring the modifier from the stratagem, what the FAQ does is reinforce the RaW that stratagems can't directly affect or target units inside a transport. Using Long Uncontrolled Bursts on a transport with open topped doesn't benefit the unit inside, it benefits the transport, which then uses the open-topped rule to pass the modifier to the unit inside.

I see your point but I disagree. The modifier is coming from a stratagem and stratagems are explicitly forbidden from also benefitting the embarked unit. If we were to allow the +1 to hit to affect the embarked unit, we would be allowing a stratagem to affect a unit embarked on a transport, which we're told we can't do.

except I already explained that the stratagem is not affecting the embarked unit. If it was they'd get +2 to hit.

Yeah, I agree with BCB, open topped is what is affecting the unit, not the strat.

The stratagem is affecting the embarked unit via the open-topped ability, which seems clear because without the stratagem being used there is no modifier benefitting anything. If it is used and the embarked unit is treated as having a +1 to hit then it's being affected by a stratagem. If the bonus was coming from a source other than a stratagem, such as the Freebooterz clan kulture, I would agree with you.

xlDuke wrote:
The stratagem is affecting the embarked unit via the open-topped ability, which seems clear because without the stratagem being used there is no modifier benefitting anything. If it is used and the embarked unit is treated as having a +1 to hit then it's being affected by a stratagem. If the bonus was coming from a source other than a stratagem, such as the Freebooterz clan kulture, I would agree with you.

And that isn't prohibited by the FAQ. It only prevents the Stratagem affecting the unit directly. An Intercessor Sergeant is not an Intercessor, etc. etc.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

xlDuke wrote:
The stratagem is affecting the embarked unit via the open-topped ability, which seems clear because without the stratagem being used there is no modifier benefitting anything. If it is used and the embarked unit is treated as having a +1 to hit then it's being affected by a stratagem. If the bonus was coming from a source other than a stratagem, such as the Freebooterz clan kulture, I would agree with you.

And that isn't prohibited by the FAQ. It only prevents the Stratagem affecting the unit directly. An Intercessor Sergeant is not an Intercessor, etc. etc.

I'm not sure what you mean by your last sentence I'm afraid but I understand that to be true as the models have different names even if they share the Intercessor Squad keyword.

We aren't told that stratagems can't directly affect embarked units, we're told broadly that stratagems can't affect them. The embarked unit in this situation would be indirectly affected by the stratagem and as such disallowed from doing so.

It's not affecting them, it's affecting the vehicle. It's the vehicle affecting the models inside by the open topped rule. It doesn't matter if a stratagem affected the vehicle to cause it, the only thing the models inside know is that they are getting the bonus by virtue of the open topped rule; it's the vehicle giving them the bonus.

As I said, per the RAW it works.


It's almost blatently obvious that it isn't supposed to, but this is another case where a fringe forgeworld model is forgotten by GW rules writers and they don't word an ability properly or forget to FAQ it.

 doctortom wrote:
It's not affecting them, it's affecting the vehicle. It's the vehicle affecting the models inside by the open topped rule. It doesn't matter if a stratagem affected the vehicle to cause it, the only thing the models inside know is that they are getting the bonus by virtue of the open topped rule; it's the vehicle giving them the bonus.

It matters in that we're expressly told that stratagems can't affect embarked units. The stratagem is affecting the vehicle and then also indirectly affecting the embarked unit. We know this to be true because if the stratagem wasn't used then there would be no modifiers to discuss.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
As I said, per the RAW it works.


It's almost blatently obvious that it isn't supposed to, but this is another case where a fringe forgeworld model is forgotten by GW rules writers and they don't word an ability properly or forget to FAQ it.

I don't think it does work RAW but I do agree that it's most likely an unintended and unforeseen interaction either way.

xlDuke wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
It's not affecting them, it's affecting the vehicle. It's the vehicle affecting the models inside by the open topped rule. It doesn't matter if a stratagem affected the vehicle to cause it, the only thing the models inside know is that they are getting the bonus by virtue of the open topped rule; it's the vehicle giving them the bonus.

It matters in that we're expressly told that stratagems can't affect embarked units. The stratagem is affecting the vehicle and then also indirectly affecting the embarked unit. We know this to be true because if the stratagem wasn't used then there would be no modifiers to discuss.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
As I said, per the RAW it works.


It's almost blatently obvious that it isn't supposed to, but this is another case where a fringe forgeworld model is forgotten by GW rules writers and they don't word an ability properly or forget to FAQ it.

I don't think it does work RAW but I do agree that it's most likely an unintended and unforeseen interaction either way.

By RAW, it's irrelevant that the stratagem is affecting the unit indirectly. RAW only cares that it's the vehicle that's affecting the unit. If you had a rule that let you do double damage to what you shoot, you shoot at a transport and made it explode, would you expect to double the number of 1's you roll for taking out passengers? No, it doesn't work like that. You use the stratagem on a unit. The unit you chose isn't the embarked unit, so you're not using the stratagem on the unit embarked. The open topped rule says that any modifiers affecting the vehicle affect the passengers inside. It doesn't matter where the modifier came from, the modifier that's affecting the embarked unit is a property of the vehicle at the point it is transferred to the unit. The rule doesn't care where the modifier came from before the vehicle got it.

Your first point doesn't seem pertinent to the issue and I don't mean to be rude but I won't address it furthar. As for your second point - we aren't only told in the FAQ that embarked units can't be targeted by stratagems (that's a rule already outlined in the Transport rules in the rule book and confirmed again in this FAQ) we're also told that stratagems can't affect embarked units. If we pass on the bonus from the stratagem to the embarked unit we're allowing the stratagem to affect it.

We are told though that Open Topped passes modifiers onto embarked passengers.

We're just going to keep going in circles. We might as well agree that neither of us is going to convince the other.

 doctortom wrote:
We are told though that Open Topped passes modifiers onto embarked passengers.

We're just going to keep going in circles. We might as well agree that neither of us is going to convince the other.

I can agree to that