Switch Theme:

Revisiting DS reaction  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Focused Fire Warrior




NY

Although I don't think that the new deepstrike rules are abhorrent I also don't love them, especially with how some armies can get into CC reliably on T1 anyways. So here is my take on a way that could have been but wasn't implemented to take care of the problem as I (with very little vision on tourney scene admittedly) see it.

First off, I don't think that T1 CC from DS was the issue. Rather, I think the problem is with the ranged firepower some DSing units have, and also a lack of options for charged units stemming from a lack of codex.

To address the strength of ranged units from deepstrike

Plasma gun/rifle: Rapidfire 1, 18". Suicide scions, slaaneshi terminators, crisis suits etc taken down a peg. Not unplayable, but not all about the alpha. Plasma pistols benefit by comparison which I think is a little necessary. Combi-plas has a reason to have a bolter half at all for Tac units. Pts balances are already needed for termi-crisis anyways and this doesn't negate that. This will also hurt first turn non DS as most units won't be able to walk 1" and be in range of the opponent front line, but is less first turn dakka a bad thing since it's still complained about?

Obliterators: Rapidfire 2, 18". These guys are the real issue that I kept seeing in chats. Their weapons are amazeballs and getting 4 shots each on T1 to the backfield (depending on deployment) is too good, especially as assault to make up for their slow movement in part. As RF their slowness will matter, their durability will actually be useful rather than a T1 concession.

Cultists: Max unit size 25-30. I guess it doesn't matter how many cp it takes to make them good if you win with first turn, so lets make them somewhat less optimized for stratagems. I'd rather see this than the rumored pts increase.

Other units that do this: let me know what else has DS option and silly range/strength. There may be too many now that codexes have been release with the assumption first turn deepstrike is gone forever.

Fixing Charges from deepstrike
I would have thought overwatch and 9" buffer zone should be enough. Screening was arguably too necessary but GW wanted troops to feel necessary so it worked out imo. When screening became that much less useful troops instead got +2CP. I'd rather see the tactical role come back than CP farms.

Otherwise, I think the issue is that many codex were not yet released or lacked a way to deal with getting charged. IIRC Chapter masters let anyone in 6" reroll ALL misses in overwatch and then there's auspex scan and ultramarines tactics, Tau were challenging to charge but now are just silly with the right sept, Space Wolves now have a good heroic intervention, Custodes have it too as a strat, AM can order to fall back and shoot (am i remembering that right?), etc. All armies should have something they can do about being charged, and I think it ought to cost CP most of the time. If an army really can't react at all, they should gain some ability to.

Or am I completely wrong and first turn deepstrike was too toxic to work around? Longstrike, Swarmlord, and Warboss don't mind the way it ended up.
   
Made in gb
Norn Queen






"Deep Strike is a problem, let's nerf all 24" guns instead of fixing the problem."

A far better solution would just to count Deep Striking units as Advancing, or prevent them from shooting more than 1 shot with their weapons the turn they arrive, or give them a special -1 to hit that can't ever be ignored.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/11/16 23:34:27


 
   
Made in us
Focused Fire Warrior




NY

 BaconCatBug wrote:
"Deep Strike is a problem, let's nerf all 24" guns instead of fixing the problem."

A far better solution would just to count Deep Striking units as Advancing, or prevent them from shooting more than 1 shot with their weapons the turn they arrive, or give them a special -1 to hit that can't ever be ignored.


2 high powered special weapons is not all 24" weapons. Hit penalties for deepstriking would be easier, good feedback. My train of thought was in the "don't hit the entire game in an attempt to tone down specific problematic units" ballpark.
   
Made in nz
Regular Dakkanaut




Shas'O'Ceris wrote:


First off, I don't think that T1 CC from DS was the issue. Rather, I think the problem is with the ranged firepower some DSing units have, and also a lack of options for charged units stemming from a lack of codex.



You hit the nail on the head with this one. It was never about CC DSing. That could be easily negated by chaff, shooting on the other hand couldn't.

I would agree with BCB on this though. Make a flat -1 to hit for things that come out from deep strike, counting them as advancing would be a bit too much as rapid fire 24" is the most common weapon you would see coming out of DS.

This only needed subtle tweaks. Not this gaudy monstrosity that negates the whole purpose of DS. Which was a tactical way of getting your opponents attention and keep his focus away from the things that would actually get the job done.

Cause lets be honest. The DSing melee muncher squad isnt the thing that's gonna kill you. It's the 3 squads of melee munchers behind them that are
   
 
Forum Index » 40K Proposed Rules
Go to: