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As of right now the index warboss on bike still has the old Waagh! wording which means it allows friendly infantry to charge and has no <clan> restrictions. Is there any rule or precedent where you use an index only entry but a similar ability gets updated in the dex? Do we use index abilities word for word, or the updated version in the dex. I'm inclined to believe we can cheese it cross cultures because they specifically went back and reworded zhadsnark in FW.

If there's no Codex datasheet then you use the Index datasheet. If it's an ability actually on that datasheet, and not one the datasheet simply references, then you would use it as written on the datasheet. This is because datasheet abilities are not shared or universal, they are specific to each datasheet, even if they have the same name.

The new Codex has an entry for Warboss on Warbike, so I don't think you can use the index Datasheet at all, save for weapon load-outs.

I think you have to use the codex datasheet. (*though any weapon options that are not in the codex but are in the index you can still use if you pay the points for them).

 DeathReaper wrote:
The new Codex has an entry for Warboss on Warbike, so I don't think you can use the index Datasheet at all, save for weapon load-outs.

I think you have to use the codex datasheet. (*though any weapon options that are not in the codex but are in the index you can still use if you pay the points for them).

There'no biker boss in the codex, only footslogging one.

 DeathReaper wrote:
The new Codex has an entry for Warboss on Warbike, so I don't think you can use the index Datasheet at all, save for weapon load-outs.

I think you have to use the codex datasheet. (*though any weapon options that are not in the codex but are in the index you can still use if you pay the points for them).

Then you got a copy of the Codex that no one else on Earth has...

OP: Yes, you use the Waagh ability that is writen in the Index. The warboss will benefit from the new and improved Ere we go, mob rule is unchanged and wont have dakkadakkadakka. He will have access to the new traits, strats and relics, and also to the clan kultur benefits. For wargear cost and rules you will have to look it up in the he codex, but for the rest of rules and abilities reference to the Index (including Waaagh)

Am I missing something?

Is that not from the Codex?

 DeathReaper wrote:
Am I missing something?

That's the Index, not the Codex.

beast_gts wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Am I missing something?

That's the Index, not the Codex.

Weird.

 DeathReaper wrote:

beast_gts wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Am I missing something?

That's the Index, not the Codex.

Weird.

The index is in black and white. The codex is in color. Not weird at all.

 Grotsnik1 wrote:
OP: Yes, you use the Waagh ability that is writen in the Index. The warboss will benefit from the new and improved Ere we go, mob rule is unchanged and wont have dakkadakkadakka. He will have access to the new traits, strats and relics, and also to the clan kultur benefits. For wargear cost you will have to look it up in the he codex, but for the rest of rules and abilities reference to the Index (including Waaagh)

I can confirm that this is the correct answer.

Post removed as elements of this were mod-deleted or were in response to posts which have since been removed.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Grotsnik1 wrote:
OP: Yes, you use the Waagh ability that is writen in the Index. The warboss will benefit from the new and improved Ere we go, mob rule is unchanged and wont have dakkadakkadakka. He will have access to the new traits, strats and relics, and also to the clan kultur benefits. For wargear cost you will have to look it up in the he codex, but for the rest of rules and abilities reference to the Index (including Waaagh)

I can confirm that this is the correct answer.

sounds good, thanks guys.

Are you sure that ere we go uses the index rules and not the codex?

The Waagh rule is spelled out on the datasheet so thats obvious but ere we go and mob rule are bolded

 Nithaniel wrote:
Are you sure that ere we go uses the index rules and not the codex?

The Waagh rule is spelled out on the datasheet so thats obvious but ere we go and mob rule are bolded

The rules also have a page reference. Because the datasheet is only found in the index, the reference page must also be in the index.

It's stupid but barring a special snowflake FAQ or errata saying otherwise you use the Index rule as well. The codex simply does not exist as far as a Warboss on Bike is concerned.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Nithaniel wrote:
Are you sure that ere we go uses the index rules and not the codex?

The Waagh rule is spelled out on the datasheet so thats obvious but ere we go and mob rule are bolded

The rules also have a page reference. Because the datasheet is only found in the index, the reference page must also be in the index.

It's stupid but barring a special snowflake FAQ or errata saying otherwise you use the Index rule as well. The codex simply does not exist as far as a Warboss on Bike is concerned.

I would respectfully disagree and I cite a very old page from warhammer community for this. (thanks to my buddy Paul for sending this to me)

Are the rules changing?
Yes, many units’ rules in their codexes will alter from those in the indexes. Sometimes this is to better represent the miniatures and the background, sometimes to balance the game, and sometimes to better fit with the army’s new special rules in the codex itself. In all cases, these will then supersede the rules for that datasheet in the index book.

this is found admittedly not on a rules page but theres other relevant info from it.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/05/codexes-your-questions-answered-july-5gw-homepage-post-2/

 Nithaniel wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Nithaniel wrote:
Are you sure that ere we go uses the index rules and not the codex?

The Waagh rule is spelled out on the datasheet so thats obvious but ere we go and mob rule are bolded

The rules also have a page reference. Because the datasheet is only found in the index, the reference page must also be in the index.

It's stupid but barring a special snowflake FAQ or errata saying otherwise you use the Index rule as well. The codex simply does not exist as far as a Warboss on Bike is concerned.

I would respectfully disagree and I cite a very old page from warhammer community for this. (thanks to my buddy Paul for sending this to me)

Are the rules changing?
Yes, many units’ rules in their codexes will alter from those in the indexes. Sometimes this is to better represent the miniatures and the background, sometimes to balance the game, and sometimes to better fit with the army’s new special rules in the codex itself. In all cases, these will then supersede the rules for that datasheet in the index book.

this is found admittedly not on a rules page but theres other relevant info from it.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/05/codexes-your-questions-answered-july-5gw-homepage-post-2/

The key part there that you are missing is the "these will then supersede the rules for that datasheet".

The data sheet in question does not have an updated version so the datasheet has not changed. Ergo, the rules have not been updated.

And as you said, it's not a rules page.

 Lance845 wrote:


The key part there that you are missing is the "these will then supersede the rules for that datasheet".

The data sheet in question does not have an updated version so the datasheet has not changed. Ergo, the rules have not been updated.

But you've quoted back to me only part of the sentence.

I seem to be interpreting it differently from you. When you take your quoted line in the context with the preceding three words (In all cases) I think it refers to ALL datasheets. It specifically says this way back in 2017 because they knew they would be changing rules and they also knew that there would be index only units. I am not arguing that a rule that is spelled out like Waagh is used as the datasheet but I think this post shows that they want all rules that have been updated to be used as the new rules. They have said quite clearly that codex supercedes index.

Again, by your logic Ultramarines can never use Rhinos because you must then use the Space Wolf version of the Rhino.

 Nithaniel wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:


The key part there that you are missing is the "these will then supersede the rules for that datasheet".

The data sheet in question does not have an updated version so the datasheet has not changed. Ergo, the rules have not been updated.

But you've quoted back to me only part of the sentence.

I seem to be interpreting it differently from you. When you take your quoted line in the context with the preceding three words (In all cases) I think it refers to ALL datasheets. It specifically says this way back in 2017 because they knew they would be changing rules and they also knew that there would be index only units. I am not arguing that a rule that is spelled out like Waagh is used as the datasheet but I think this post shows that they want all rules that have been updated to be used as the new rules. They have said quite clearly that codex supercedes index.

When you take those 3 words in the context of the very first sentence of the answer. "Yes, many units’ rules in their codexes will alter from those in the indexes." it changes back to what I was saying.

The subject of what they are talking about is a units rules. You have unit X. When Unit X's rule are updated in the codex for fluff or balance or whatever then in all cases THAT datasheet will supersede the one from the index.

Unit X does not have a new datasheet in the codex, so unit X has nothing to supersede it.

Armywide rules that got updated in the Codex use the latest version. Ditto updated psychic disciplines in the Codex. (Obviously a book published last year can’t reference a page in a book published this year... that’s a daft argument!)

If a rule is on the Datasheet you’re stuck with it in a competitive/YMDC thread situation. In a friendly game do what you will... the rules are but a framework and if adopting a later version of a rule makes sense to you and your opponent then go right ahead. There is no single way to play.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Armywide rules that got updated in the Codex use the latest version.

Could you provide a rules citation for this please? I would love for this to be true. The only thing I can find is the Designers Commentary flowchart that explicitly says you only get to use Codex Rules if your model has a datasheet in the codex, which to me indicated an Index Only datasheet uses the Index rules. I know some Forge World stuff gets the new codex stat-lines via FAQ, but can't seem to find anything for the GW indexes.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
There is no single way to play.

Yes, but this is a forum about the actual rules. It's not helpful to constantly have to disclaim "But you can always just make stuff up if you want" to the end of every post.

It’s a forum about the actual rules but to a casual player with a query the replies can be very off putting and even offensive/abrasive. All players should have a voice on here. If you’re a new 12 year old starting out it might be nice to know some people in the community are relaxed about the rules and more narrative in play style. It would equally be nice to not have to qualify the end with every post with “but most people would be happy for you to do that so just ask them.”

Casual does not mean "Ignores the rules".

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:
Armywide rules that got updated in the Codex use the latest version.

Could you provide a rules citation for this please? I would love for this to be true. The only thing I can find is the Designers Commentary flowchart that explicitly says you only get to use Codex Rules if your model has a datasheet in the codex, which to me indicated an Index Only datasheet uses the Index rules. I know some Forge World stuff gets the new codex stat-lines via FAQ, but can't seem to find anything for the GW indexes.

 JohnnyHell wrote:
There is no single way to play.

Yes, but this is a forum about the actual rules. It's not helpful to constantly have to disclaim "But you can always just make stuff up if you want" to the end of every post.

“Use the latest rules” has always been true, otherwise you could cherry pick the Index Commissar, which you yourself have told people they cannot do. What was your basis for that unless you agree you must use the latest rules? Are you just being contrarian to argue with me? Because your prior posts suggest you agree with me.

And quit with the strawmanning. Same strawman in two threads. Either pop me on ignore if you disagree or argue politely, but don’t constantly pretend I’m making stuff up. It’s tiresome and I’ve called you out for this before. I gave both a RAW answer and a play how you like answer in that post. Don’t pretend I didn’t to support your narrative.

But I still believe that the post I stated above is the definitive statement for using the latest rules.

when they (GW) say in all cases use the latest rules for that datasheet having not referenced a specific datasheet earlier in the paragraph, when they say 'that datasheet' to me that means the one you are currrently looking at.

So In the case of the ork warboss on bike, he has only one datasheet and the warhammer comunity page says use the current rules for that datasheet.

To suggest that the term 'That datasheet' refers only to units that have multiple datasheets seems confusing to me.

And the current rules for a Warboss on Bike say to use the Index rules for Ere We Go. Unless you can show me an errata to the Index, or an FAQ that says otherwise, as far as the Warboss on Bike datasheet is concerned, the codex simply does not exist.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
And the current rules for a Warboss on Bike say to use the Index rules for Ere We Go. Unless you can show me an errata to the Index, or an FAQ that says otherwise, as far as the Warboss on Bike datasheet is concerned, the codex simply does not exist.

Technically the pg reference only follows the mob rule bold text but thats neither here nor there to my argument, you're still not saying anything about the warhammer community article that I posted which kind of proves you wrong.

Also I completely didn't follow your example of space wolf/ultramarine rhinos.

As I see it, there are no rules anywhere that say for an index only entry you MUST use the index rules but there is a statement saying in all cases use the current rules where new rules are available. Note that I am specifying the word rules here as opposed to datasheet as a whole. This is because ere we go is a rule that has been updated. We have been told in specific regard to rules not datasheets, the following;

In all cases, these will then supercede the rules for that datasheet in the index book.

I've highlighted those 2 words for a reason and I haven't had an explanation from anyone stating why this doesn't apply in this case.

 Nithaniel wrote:

Technically the pg reference only follows the mob rule bold text but thats neither here nor there to my argument, you're still not saying anything about the warhammer community article that I posted which kind of proves you wrong.

A Warhammer Community Article is not a Rulebook, nor an errata, nor an FAQ.

Also I completely didn't follow your example of space wolf/ultramarine rhinos.

If you're forced to use the most current rules like you're claiming, Ultramarines would be forced to use Space Wolf Rhinos, since their codex came after the SM codex.

As I see it, there are no rules anywhere that say for an index only entry you MUST use the index rules but there is a statement saying in all cases use the current rules where new rules are available. Note that I am specifying the word rules here as opposed to datasheet as a whole. This is because ere we go is a rule that has been updated. We have been told in specific regard to rules not datasheets, the following;

In all cases, these will then supercede the rules for that datasheet in the index book.

I've highlighted those 2 words for a reason and I haven't had an explanation from anyone stating why this doesn't apply in this case.

Because it's referring to datasheets that have a replacement in the codex, not datasheets that do not have replacements. English Grammar is clear here. Again, by your logic Ultramarines will never be able to ride in Rhinos again in 8th. Granted, argumentum ad absurdum doesn't work anymore in 8th due to re-rolls before modifiers and exploding plasma at night, but I hope you get the gist of what I am trying to say.

Also "It doesn't say I can't" is not a valid argument. There are also no rules saying I can't throw an onion at a pigeon in order to automatically pass a morale test either. The rules are permissive, and then add restrictions on top of that. The rules for the Warboss on Bike tell you to use the Ere We Go rule found in the index, and nothing else changes that.

A warhammer community article isnt rules, or FAQ/errata. Read the designers commentary last page (which is errata) : https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_designers_commentary_en-1.pdf

It clearly tells you to use the index version of the datasheet. Any page reference on that datasheet is for the index.