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Of course, many people go on and on about Lee, Rommel, Hannibal etc. Some people go on and on about more obscure commanders. However, what are some of your favorite historical military commanders and why?

Really, I am just looking for a reason to talk about, research, and discuss some folks and conflicts I might not that much about.

Here are a few of mine:

Tiglath-Pilesar III- This guy was a Neo-Assyrian conqueror and king that supposedly reformed the Assyrian army into the war machine that it is famous for.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiglath-Pileser_III

Xenophon- Honestly, who does not love the Anabasis? Maybe he is the greatest propagandist (right up there with Caesar) of antiquity and not the greatest general; but at least the story is cracking.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabasis_(Xenophon)

Pyrrhus of Epirus- A somewhat failed diadochi/successor of Alexander who dabbled in conquest, freebooting, and played around across the Med. Famous for fighting the early Republican Romans and coining a famous phrase. Was killed by an old lady who threw a roofing tile at him in Sicily. Ranked as a pretty good ancient general by Hannibal himself.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhus_of_Epirus

Antigonus Monopathalmus- Came very close to re-uniting the Empire of Alexander..... but ultimately failed. Beat up other famous Diadochi commanders including Eumenes and more. Plus, how cool is it to be know as the "One-eyed".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigonus_I_Monophthalmus

Xanthippus the Spartan- A spartan mercenary who re-organized the Cathaginian army and defeated the Romans int eh first Punic War. Not much is known about him, and ht enature of his reforms are not 100% clear. However, he was clearly awesome as the Carthaginians were ready to give up before they hired him.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xanthippus_of_Carthage

Most of mine are from Antiquity, and hence why you I want to expand my horizons a bit when it comes to generalship......

So, what do you have?

Baybars. After a life spent wrecking Crusader butt, handing the Mongols their first outright ass kicking in the Middle East, and wrecking more Crusader butt, the man was such a damn badass the only way to kill him was by poisoning himself.

Also see my signature. Behemond I is the subject of an old, now forgotten, European anecdote about punching horses, because he literally punched a horse and killed it after feeling insulted by the Pope's feeble attempts to make him back the feth off in the middle of conquering gak. The Pope and the Patriarch of Constantinople got so fed up with the guy conquering gak they sent him off on the first Crusade figuring he'd either die or otherwise be out of their hair. Then he decided the other Crusaders were a bunch of pansies and went off to conquer Antioch. Really the guy's only problem was he had no political savvy, but put him in an army and give him troops and he scared everyone else shitless.

It's going to be hard to get more details on obscure generals in antiquity. We just don't know much more that what's on the wiki page - at least reliably anyways. It's part of the reason they are obscure. Caesar was a great General because he wrote it all down and manipulated the facts to make it look like he was a legendary war god (the reality is he was a good general but he should have won every battle he won because he had a superior army). This does make the obscure guys seem more interesting though. Good luck in your research.

That gives me the idea for a thread about generals who made themselves look great by propaganda.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
That gives me the idea for a thread about generals who made themselves look great by propaganda.

What ax? I don't have an ax and even if I did what would I grind it on? *pulls out MacArthur's reputation*

I have a soft spot for Omar Bradley and Gustav II Adolf.

Bradley for being a talented commander who didn't have a giant overweening ego, Gustavus Adolphus for his various military reforms and leadership style.

K.K. Rokossovsky. Maybe the first general to start beating the Nazis on a consistent basis. He also refused to submit toi stalin and was tortured for a considerable time before the nazi invasion. All in all one hell of a man.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konstantin_Rokossovsky

Subutai. When you serve four Khagans of the Mongol Empire in succession and win every pitched battle in your career, you're a certified badass.

Timur/Tamerlane for similar reasons, except he was a Khan.

Jan Zizka. Heretic, and master of militia. Spent the last 4 years of his career totally blind.

http://www.badassoftheweek.com/zizka.html

THE BOY

You people of the South don't know what you are doing. This country will be drenched in blood, and God only knows how it will end. It is all folly, madness, a crime against civilization! You people speak so lightly of war; you don't know what you're talking about. War is a terrible thing! You mistake, too, the people of the North. They are a peaceable people but an earnest people, and they will fight, too. They are not going to let this country be destroyed without a mighty effort to save it … Besides, where are your men and appliances of war to contend against them? The North can make a steam engine, locomotive, or railway car; hardly a yard of cloth or pair of shoes can you make. You are rushing into war with one of the most powerful, ingeniously mechanical, and determined people on Earth — right at your doors. You are bound to fail. Only in your spirit and determination are you prepared for war. In all else you are totally unprepared, with a bad cause to start with. At first you will make headway, but as your limited resources begin to fail, shut out from the markets of Europe as you will be, your cause will begin to wane. If your people will but stop and think, they must see in the end that you will surely fail.

I am satisfied, and have been all the time, that the problem of this war consists in the awful fact that the present class of men who rule the South must be killed outright rather than in the conquest of territory.

I would make this war as severe as possible, and show no symptoms of tiring till the South begs for mercy.

If the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war, and not popularity seeking.

You may as well say, 'That's a valiant flea that dare eat his breakfast on the lip of a lion.

I really like Quintus Sertorius if we are talking about unappreciated ancient commanders!

Its not just that he was a good battlefield commander. I like the stories about him, you can imagine him being a right laugh to share a goblet of wine with although I bet he would have a steely look in his eye...
Also the scale of his ambition, many men can win a battle or two, but creating an entirely new state and managing a whole war effort. The man must have been incredibly productive with his time.

Lucius Cornelius Sulla Felix

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulla

A excellent general who is often ignored in favour of JC, for example

Sulla served exceptionally as a general during the Social War. At Nola he was awarded a Corona Obsidionalis (Obsidional or Blockade Crown), also known as a Corona Graminea (Grass Crown). This was the highest Roman military honour, awarded for personal bravery to a commander who saves a Roman legion or army in the field. Unlike all other Roman military honours, it was awarded by acclamation of the soldiers of the rescued army, and consequently very few were ever awarded. The crown, by tradition, was woven from grasses and other plants taken from the actual battlefiel

He also succeeded where Caesar later failed and took total control over the Roman Republic, not only that but then gave it up and retired (disgracefully with his wife and ageing actor lover).

Also for his epitaph

No friend ever served me, and no enemy ever wronged me, whom I have not repaid in full

Xenomancers wrote:It's going to be hard to get more details on obscure generals in antiquity. We just don't know much more that what's on the wiki page - at least reliably anyways. It's part of the reason they are obscure. Caesar was a great General because he wrote it all down and manipulated the facts to make it look like he was a legendary war god (the reality is he was a good general but he should have won every battle he won because he had a superior army). This does make the obscure guys seem more interesting though. Good luck in your research.

Kilkrazy wrote:That gives me the idea for a thread about generals who made themselves look great by propaganda.

These two answers are interesting. I was reading Caesar a few weeks back and it is amazing how absolutely slipshod he was, whilst he was obviously a fine commander in the field his constant inability to sort out his own logistics and his repeated dalliances whilst there were people to fight and wars to be won make him look quite a tit (and he wrote his own books).

Xenomancers - it is surprising how much more information you can get from reading books than from looking at wiki.

To answer the question though; Alexander, Cyrus II, Sir Ralph Hopton, Duke of Marlborough and T.E Lawrence.
Alexander because his fighting record was astounding whether he was commanding a skirmish or a set piece and as long as he was wasn't drinking he was quite a humanist as well.
Cyrus II was the same but actually kept his empire of disperate parts together.
Sir Ralph because he is a local lad to where I grew up and he managed to get the Cornish to follow him (no mean feat before the modern age).
Marlborough was just pure class, other than in his personal affairs where he was a bit questionable. He also defeated that stuffed frock Monmouth.
Lawrence took his book learning and tried it out on the battlefield and he did so very successfully. He also joined the air force and RAC under different names.

 Kroem wrote:
I really like Quintus Sertorius if we are talking about unappreciated ancient commanders!

Its not just that he was a good battlefield commander. I like the stories about him, you can imagine him being a right laugh to share a goblet of wine with although I bet he would have a steely look in his eye...
Also the scale of his ambition, many men can win a battle or two, but creating an entirely new state and managing a whole war effort. The man must have been incredibly productive with his time.

I recently read a story about how he had everyone convinced that a white doe was an avatar of the gods and giving him advice.

Easy E; have you ever read any of the English Civil wars? they might be worth your time.

Gustavus Adolphus is well worth the effort as he was a very important reformers of the 17th century way of warfare as well as being a very able general.

As was mentioned up thread the crusades are worth the reading though you will find good generals are few and far between on the Christian side in the middle eastern theatre but Saladhin is worth the study.

I assume you have done the Punic wars?

Tamerlane is really interesting with how widepsread his conquests were and how divergent the cultures.

English Civil War and Crusaders are a bit of a blind spot.

Gustavus Adolphus is well known where I am from and even has a local college named after him. It is always amazing to me how many of the alumni there know almost nothing about the "Lion of the North".

Admiral Yi.

Probably holds the record for # of demotions one can suffer for political reasons and keep climbing back up the ranks through sheer skill and aptitude. Tactical genius who time and time again would win naval victories vs superior numbers and suffer no loss of ships.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_Sun-sin

 Grey Templar wrote:
Admiral Yi.

Probably holds the record for # of demotions one can suffer for political reasons and keep climbing back up the ranks through sheer skill and aptitude. Tactical genius who time and time again would win naval victories vs superior numbers and suffer no loss of ships.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yi_Sun-sin

Pretty sure there's a very good movie about him by the same name.

My take was that he kept getting demoted for political reasons, then repromoted because someone would come and start a fight XD

Yeah. Certain people at court didn't like him. He was noted to have been an utterly incorruptible person and didn't tolerate corruption in others. Which was probably one reason he kept getting character assassinated.

But each time he was demoted, he either rose back through the ranks because of skill and later because his skill was legendary and the people in charge would realize they needed him. Sometimes even the same person who had gotten him demoted in the first place.

He even got courtmartialed a few times in these futile attempts to ruin him, and each time he was either saved or turned the argument back on his accuser.

First off: Alexander of Macedon. Why? When did he ever lose?

Second, General "Blackjack" Pershing. Why? Efficiency.

Then the Third, which is chronologically 3rd but my favorite general of all time. Why? Well...

General George S. Patton's speech to 3rd Army before the Battle Of The Bulge:

No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country.

Be seated.

Men, all this stuff you hear about America not wanting to fight, wanting to stay out of the war, is a lot of bs. Americans love to fight. All real Americans love the sting and clash of battle. When you were kids, you all admired the champion marble shooter, the fastest runner, the big-league ball players and the toughest boxers. Americans love a winner and will not tolerate a loser. Americans play to win all the time. That's why Americans have never lost and will never lose a war. The very thought of losing is hateful to Americans. Battle is the most significant competition in which a man can indulge. It brings out all that is best and it removes all that is base.

You are not all going to die. Only two percent of you right here today would be killed in a major battle. Every man is scared in his first action. If he says he's not, he's a goddamn liar. But the real hero is the man who fights even though he's scared. Some men will get over their fright in a minute under fire, some take an hour, and for some it takes days. But the real man never lets his fear of death overpower his honor, his sense of duty to his country, and his innate manhood.

All through your army career you men have bitched about what you call 'this chicken-gak drilling.' That is all for a purpose—to ensure instant obedience to orders and to create constant alertness. This must be bred into every soldier. I don't give a feth for a man who is not always on his toes. But the drilling has made veterans of all you men. You are ready! A man has to be alert all the time if he expects to keep on breathing. If not, some German son-of-a-bitch will sneak up behind him and beat him to death with a sock full of gak. There are four hundred neatly marked graves in Sicily, all because one man went to sleep on the job—but they are German graves, because we caught the bastard asleep before his officer did.

An army is a team. It lives, eats, sleeps, and fights as a team. This individual hero stuff is bs. The bilious bastards who write that stuff for the Saturday Evening Post don't know any more about real battle than they do about fething. And we have the best team—we have the finest food and equipment, the best spirit and the best men in the world. Why, by God, I actually pity these poor bastards we're going up against.

All the real heroes are not storybook combat fighters. Every single man in the army plays a vital role. So don't ever let up. Don't ever think that your job is unimportant. What if every truck driver decided that he didn't like the whine of the shells and turned yellow and jumped headlong into a ditch? That cowardly bastard could say to himself, 'Hell, they won't miss me, just one man in thousands.' What if every man said that? Where in the hell would we be then? No, thank God, Americans don't say that. Every man does his job. Every man is important. The ordinance men are needed to supply the guns, the quartermaster is needed to bring up the food and clothes for us because where we are going there isn't a hell of a lot to steal. Every last damn man in the mess hall, even the one who boils the water to keep us from getting the GI gaks, has a job to do.

Each man must think not only of himself, but think of his buddy fighting alongside him. We don't want yellow cowards in the army. They should be killed off like flies. If not, they will go back home after the war, goddamn cowards, and breed more cowards. The brave men will breed more brave men. Kill off the goddamn cowards and we'll have a nation of brave men.

One of the bravest men I saw in the African campaign was on a telegraph pole in the midst of furious fire while we were moving toward Tunis. I stopped and asked him what the hell he was doing up there. He answered, 'Fixing the wire, sir.' 'Isn't it a little unhealthy up there right now?' I asked. 'Yes sir, but this goddamn wire has got to be fixed.' I asked, 'Don't those planes strafing the road bother you?' And he answered, 'No sir, but you sure as hell do.' Now, there was a real soldier. A real man. A man who devoted all he had to his duty, no matter how great the odds, no matter how seemingly insignificant his duty appeared at the time.

And you should have seen the trucks on the road to Gabès. Those drivers were magnificent. All day and all night they crawled along those son-of-a-bitch roads, never stopping, never deviating from their course with shells bursting all around them. Many of the men drove over 40 consecutive hours. We got through on good old American guts. These were not combat men. But they were soldiers with a job to do. They were part of a team. Without them the fight would have been lost.

Sure, we all want to go home. We want to get this war over with. But you can't win a war lying down. The quickest way to get it over with is to get the bastards who started it. We want to get the hell over there and clean the goddamn thing up, and then get at those purple-pissing Japs. The quicker they are whipped, the quicker we go home. The shortest way home is through Berlin and Tokyo. So keep moving. And when we get to Berlin, I am personally going to shoot that paper-hanging son-of-a-bitch Hitler.

When a man is lying in a shell hole, if he just stays there all day, a Boche will get him eventually. The hell with that. My men don't dig foxholes. Foxholes only slow up an offensive. Keep moving. We'll win this war, but we'll win it only by fighting and showing the Germans that we've got more guts than they have or ever will have. We're not just going to shoot the bastards, we're going to rip out their living goddamned guts and use them to grease the treads of our tanks. We're going to murder those lousy Hun ladies men by the bushel-fething-basket.

Some of you men are wondering whether or not you'll chicken out under fire. Don't worry about it. I can assure you that you'll all do your duty. War is a bloody business, a killing business. The Nazis are the enemy. Wade into them, spill their blood or they will spill yours. Shoot them in the guts. Rip open their belly. When shells are hitting all around you and you wipe the dirt from your face and you realize that it's not dirt, it's the blood and gut of what was once your best friend, you'll know what to do.

I don't want any messages saying 'I'm holding my position.' We're not holding a goddamned thing. We're advancing constantly and we're not interested in holding anything except the enemy's balls. We're going to hold him by his balls and we're going to kick him in the ass; twist his balls and kick the living gak out of him all the time. Our plan of operation is to advance and keep on advancing. We're going to go through the enemy like gak through a tinhorn.

There will be some complaints that we're pushing our people too hard. I don't give a damn about such complaints. I believe that an ounce of sweat will save a gallon of blood. The harder we push, the more Germans we kill. The more Germans we kill, the fewer of our men will be killed. Pushing harder means fewer casualties. I want you all to remember that. My men don't surrender. I don't want to hear of any soldier under my command being captured unless he is hit. Even if you are hit, you can still fight. That's not just bs either. I want men like the lieutenant in Libya who, with a Luger against his chest, swept aside the gun with his hand, jerked his helmet off with the other and busted the hell out of the Boche with the helmet. Then he picked up the gun and he killed another German. All this time the man had a bullet through his lung. That's a man for you!

Don't forget, you don't know I'm here at all. No word of that fact is to be mentioned in any letters. The world is not supposed to know what the hell they did with me. I'm not supposed to be commanding this army. I'm not even supposed to be in England. Let the first bastards to find out be the goddamned Germans. Some day, I want them to rise up on their piss-soaked hind legs and howl 'Ach! It's the goddamned Third Army and that son-of-a-bitch Patton again!'

Then there's one thing you men will be able to say when this war is over and you get back home. Thirty years from now when you're sitting by your fireside with your grandson on your knee and he asks, 'What did you do in the great World War Two?' You won't have to cough and say, 'Well, your granddaddy shoveled gak in Louisiana.' No sir, you can look him straight in the eye and say 'Son, your granddaddy rode with the great Third Army and a son-of-a-goddamned-bitch named George Patton!'

All right, you sons of bitches. You know how I feel. I'll be proud to lead you wonderful guys in battle anytime, anywhere. That's all.


Also, in response to retreating to regroup or giving up gained ground:

"I don't like to pay for the same real estate twice."

My favourite obscure military leader is Ivaylo the Cabbage:

Ivaylo was a Bulgarian peasant in the 13th century (sources differ on whether he was a swine herder or a landless farmer). The Bulgarian Empire in the 13th century was a powerful state, but it was not a good place for a peasant to be. The land suffered from regular wars between the Bulgarian Empire and the Roman Empire as they fought for domination over Thrace and Macedonia. And perhaps worse, it suffered frequent invasions and raids from the Mongol Golden Horde to the north, which the Bulgarian nobility were largely powerless to prevent. And if that wasn't bad enough, the Bulgarian nobility was expanding its powers at the cost of the peasantry, reducing their rights and freedoms and turning them into serfs. Ivaylo was just a common peasant who had endured many raids and hardship in his life. History has not recorded why he started his uprising. Perhaps his village was burned down one time too many, perhaps raiders had killed his family, perhaps he was just fed up with the abuse he and other peasants suffered at the hands of noblemen. Perhaps it was a combination of such factors. But whatever the cause, something had snapped inside of Ivaylo. In the summer of 1277, when yet another Mongol raiding party was heading towards his village, Ivaylo decided that he would not take it anymore. Claiming he had received a vision from God in which they repelled the Mongol invaders, Ivaylo gathered a group of peasants and attacked the Mongol raiders. He utterly destroyed them. Inspired by his success, Ivaylo tracked down a larger group of Mongols. He destroyed them too. Ivaylo and his peasants defeated raiding party after raiding party and as a result of his incredible successes Ivaylo's fame started to spread and more peasants flocked to his banner. By the autumn of 1277, Ivaylo and his peasant army had driven the Mongols out of Bulgarian territory entirely, something which the Bulgarian nobility and their armies had tried and failed to achieve for many years. However, Ivaylo wasn't finished yet. He not only wanted to rid Bulgaria of the Mongols, but also of the incompetent, decadent emperor and his noble clique. But to achieve such a goal, Ivaylo needed support not just among the peasantry, but also among some of the Bulgarian nobility. Luckily for him, after accomplishing such a great feat Ivaylo's reputation and popularity had skyrocketed, even amongst some of the Bulgarian nobility who were fed up with the deadly schemes and internal struggles of the Bulgarian imperial court, and especially with the empress, whose influence they detested. These noblemen were happy to support Ivaylo even though he was of humble origins and proclaimed him emperor.

So by the end of 1277, Ivaylo and his peasants had become a threat that the Bulgarian emperor, Constantine Tikh Asen, could no longer ignore. The emperor gathered his army and marched north to kick those unruly peasants back to where they belonged and dispatch this peasant emperor who they derisively called "Tsar Bardokva", which means 'Emperor Lettuce'. Ivaylo however decided that he would not just wait for the emperor to come for him. With his peasants and his noble supporters, he marched forth and attacked the emperor's army. Ivaylo won a crushing victory and slew Emperor Constantine personally. After his victory, Ivaylo and his supporters marched across the country to establish their rule. They besieged city after city, and all of them surrendered or fell to Ivaylo. In spring 1278, less than a year after starting his incredible journey, Ivaylo appeared before the walls of Tarnovo, the Bulgarian capital and the last city that remained in the hands of Constantine Tikh's son and heir, the emperor Michael Asen II.

However, Ivaylo's success had not gone unnoticed by the great powers of the medieval world. To the south, in Constantinople, the Roman emperor Michael VIII Palaiologos was getting worried about this upstart barbarian peasant on his northern border. Ivaylo threatened the established order of things, and so he was a threat. Deciding that Constantine Tikh's son was too weak to be emperor of Bulgaria, he turned to a Bulgarian nobleman living at his court. Ivan Asen was the son of a previous emperor of Bulgaria and so made a perfect pretender that Michael VIII could place on the Bulgarian throne. Using Ivan Asen as a strawman, he might even be able to establish Roman control over Bulgaria. And so the Roman emperor granted Ivan Asen the title of "despotēs" (heir apparent) and gave him the hand of his daughter in marriage to seal the alliance. He then dispatched a large army under the famed general Michael Glabas to deal with the "Lakhanas" (The Cabbage, as the Romans had started calling Ivaylo) and put Ivan Asen on the Bulgarian throne as Ivan Asen III.

Meanwhile, at Tarnovo, the Bulgarian empress and regent Maria heard of the approach of the Roman army and feared losing her influence. She contacted Ivaylo and tried to make a deal with him. She would marry Ivaylo and place him on the Bulgarian throne as emperor, on the condition that Ivaylo accept her son, Micheal Asen II, as his heir. At first, Ivaylo was unwilling. He felt that he did not need to be granted that which he was already about to take by force anyway. But hearing the news of the approaching Roman army and of a renewed Mongolian invasion in the north, Ivaylo realised that he needed a unified country to have any hope of resisting these invasions. Thus, Ivaylo agreed, and the empress married the peasant who had killed her husband. After having been officially crowned as emperor, Ivaylo left Tarnovo again to first deal with the Mongols. Once again, Ivaylo proceeded to win every single battle against the nomad cavalry and chased their army out of Bulgaria. Meanwhile, in the south, the situation was also looking good. The Roman army had arrived and launched a massive assault on a wide front all across the Balkans. However, the defenders Ivaylo had stationed in the mountain passes and across southern Bulgaria held out stubbornly until after the Mongols were defeated and Ivaylo could travel south to deal with the Roman army in person. Despite their best efforts and massive numerical superiority, the Romans had made only minor progress. Nonetheless, Ivaylo had lost many of his friends and trusted commanders from the beginning of his journey, who fell defending the fortresses and cities of southern Bulgaria against the Romans. Then Ivaylo arrived, and once again he proceeded to win every single battle he led in person. Roman morale was very low. Not only were they making very little progress, but Ivaylo was also a merciless leader. The Roman soldiers knew that falling in the hands of "Lakhanas" meant certain death. By the autumn of 1278 the Bulgarians had managed to gain the upper hand and the Romans abandoned their campaign.

However, Ivaylo would not get peace. Nogai Khan, great-grandson of Genghis Khan and de-facto ruler of the Golden Horde, had gotten really, really annoyed at his warriors being defeated again and again by a peasant. So he led a massive invasion of Bulgaria in person. His hordes cut through Bulgaria like a hot knife through butter. Ivaylo was trapped and besieged in the city of Drastar. With Ivaylo being unable to leave the city and most of his army engaged with the Mongols, Emperor Micheal VIII made contact with the high nobility of the Bulgarian imperial court at Tarnovo. He convinced them to support Ivan Asen instead of Cabbage. And so, in 1279 Micheal Glabas with a small Roman force sailed up the Danube and occupied Tarnovo with the help of the city's elite who opened the gates for him. They then proclaimed Ivan Asen III as the true emperor of Bulgaria. To keep the common people and Ivaylo's supporters from rising against them they spread rumours that the Cabbage had died fighting the Mongols at Drastar. Empress Maria, who by that time was pregnant with Ivaylo's child, was exiled to Constantinople.

Despite having been cut in two when the Romans landed behind their lines, Bulgarian forces loyal to Ivaylo continued to resist and gave the Romans a hard time. The Romans tried to get southern Bulgaria under control and launched an offensive from two directions along with their Bulgarian allies. They were winning, but every fortress they had to siege and take cost them valuable manpower and time. This time is what Ivaylo needed. After a three-month siege, he and his forces managed to break through the Mongol siege lines at Drastar and escape to the south. A really mad Ivaylo headed straight for the capital and besieged it, taking Ivan Asen III and his Roman allies by surprise. Michael VIII send a 10,000-strong army from Constantinople to relieve the siege, but Ivaylo once again did not sit around waiting for them. He took a small force and intercepted the Roman army in a mountain pass, achieving a smashing victory in the ensuing battle. Almost all Roman soldiers were either killed or captured and then killed. Micheal VIII send another army, and Ivaylo defeated that one as well during a long battle in which he slew the Roman commander personally. According to the records, Ivaylo was filled with fury and slew scores of Romans during and after the battle. By this point, the Romans had become downright terrified of the Cabbage. The smaller Roman forces that had been sent to besiege fortresses across southern Bulgaria fled as soon as they heard Ivaylo was coming.

Because of such crushing defeats, and the Cabbage's seeming invincibility, the authority of Ivan Asen III had been thoroughly shaken. He secretly fled the besieged city of Tarnovo taking the imperial regalia with him (the Bulgarian regalia had actually been Roman imperial regalia which the Bulgarians had captured in a battle almost a century earlier). However, when he arrived in Constantinople t ask for more support, Micheal VIII was disgusted at his cowardice. Ivaylo returned to Tarnovo, but the high Bulgarian nobility refused to let him in. They still could not accept the idea of being ruled by a peasant. So instead they elected a new emperor from their midst, George Terter, who was one of the wealthiest and most powerful nobles in Bulgaria. For Ivaylo, this was really bad news. Despite all of his great victories, he started to lose more and more support. Those of the nobility that had supported him started to lose heart because of the fact that Ivaylo failed to win acceptance from the rest of the nobility and so could not rule over a unified country. The peasantry which had enthusiastically supported Ivaylo at first started losing faith in him as well. Ivaylo had started his revolution to drive out the Mongol raiders and bring an end to the wars and exploitation of the peasants, but instead of that Ivaylo had only brought more wars and bigger Mongol raids. Not to mention that without being accepted as emperor, he was not able to end the exploitation of the peasantry either.

And so, in 1280, as Ivaylo saw his support base dwindle and dwindle, and he knew that it was a matter of time before the Bulgarian nobility could gather a larger army to oppose him or the Romans would send new forces, he decided that he had no choice but to abandon his cause for now and flee. He fled to the north, to Nogai Khan, who by now had gotten a healthy respect for Ivaylo and his exploits. Staying with the Mongols as the khan's guest, he tried to secure their support for his cause. However, Michael VIII caught word of what Ivaylo was doing and send Ivan Asen III as an envoy to the Mongols with great gifts in order to secure their support for his cause instead. In this he was helped by the Emperor's bastard daughter, who had become the khan's wife and helped Ivan Asen argue for his cause and protected him when he accidentally offended Nogai Khan and almost lost his head. Ultimately, during a feast in which both claimants once again argued their cause, Nogai Khan decided that the Romans offered a better deal than Ivaylo ever could, and he ordered Ivaylo and his few remaining supporters to be put to death on the spot.

And thus ends the tale of Ivaylo, the medieval peasant who faced and defeated the two greatest powers of medieval Europe, became emperor, and won every single battle but still lost the war because the nobility thought he was a smelly cabbage.

After Ivaylo's death, Bulgaria continued to collapse into ever more chaos as the Mongols had free reign in raiding and looting whatever they pleased and interfered heavily in the country's civil wars and domestic disputes as they (unsuccessfully) tried to restore Ivan Asen III to the Bulgarian throne. Meanwhile, the Romans annexed most of southern Bulgaria. Bulgarian remained in chaos until George Terter's son Svetoslav restored order and managed to take back a lot of territory from the Mongols and Romans in the early 14th century. By this point however, the Bulgarian imperial state had lost most of its centralised power to wealthy nobles and magnates. Bulgaria effectively ceased to be an empire and became a feudal realm.

"Favorite" is hard to really do, but I think perhaps 2 of my favorite to read about/study are Wallenstein and Gustavus Adolphus. . .

To me, the 30 Years' War really stand out for the abnormal sized armies these dudes were commanding, compared to the "norm" of warfare during the medieval/early modern periods.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
That gives me the idea for a thread about generals who made themselves look great by propaganda.

How about one for favourite logistician?

 Ketara wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
That gives me the idea for a thread about generals who made themselves look great by propaganda.

How about one for favourite logistician?

Too easy, has to be Monty

Von Moltke during the Franco-Prussian and Austro-Prussian Wars for best Logistician.

 LordofHats wrote:
Baybars. After a life spent wrecking Crusader butt, handing the Mongols their first outright ass kicking in the Middle East, and wrecking more Crusader butt, the man was such a damn badass the only way to kill him was by poisoning himself.

Also see my signature. Behemond I is the subject of an old, now forgotten, European anecdote about punching horses, because he literally punched a horse and killed it after feeling insulted by the Pope's feeble attempts to make him back the feth off in the middle of conquering gak. The Pope and the Patriarch of Constantinople got so fed up with the guy conquering gak they sent him off on the first Crusade figuring he'd either die or otherwise be out of their hair. Then he decided the other Crusaders were a bunch of pansies and went off to conquer Antioch. Really the guy's only problem was he had no political savvy, but put him in an army and give him troops and he scared everyone else shitless.

LOL

The first mongolian outright defeat was delivered by Qutuz at Ain Jalut. Baybars faced almost a generation later the further de-mongolized (it's importan to make a distinction, for by that time the command and control capabilities of the mongol hordes had declined as their traditions had been greatly diluted) Ilkanate as it wrangled with their northern brethren of the golden horde. (Though it's still no small feat at all.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ain_Jalut#Aftermath

Qutuz does deserve a greater mention as he out mongoled the Mongols when they were almost at their prime.

That and the Legendary Yi-Sun Sin

Lord Kragan wrote:

 LordofHats wrote:
Baybars. After a life spent wrecking Crusader butt, handing the Mongols their first outright ass kicking in the Middle East, and wrecking more Crusader butt, the man was such a damn badass the only way to kill him was by poisoning himself.

Also see my signature. Behemond I is the subject of an old, now forgotten, European anecdote about punching horses, because he literally punched a horse and killed it after feeling insulted by the Pope's feeble attempts to make him back the feth off in the middle of conquering gak. The Pope and the Patriarch of Constantinople got so fed up with the guy conquering gak they sent him off on the first Crusade figuring he'd either die or otherwise be out of their hair. Then he decided the other Crusaders were a bunch of pansies and went off to conquer Antioch. Really the guy's only problem was he had no political savvy, but put him in an army and give him troops and he scared everyone else shitless.

LOL

The first mongolian outright defeat was delivered by Qutuz at Ain Jalut. Baybars faced almost a generation later the further de-mongolized (it's importan to make a distinction, for by that time the command and control capabilities of the mongol hordes had declined as their traditions had been greatly diluted) Ilkanate as it wrangled with their northern brethren of the golden horde. (Though it's still no small feat at all.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ain_Jalut#Aftermath

Qutuz does deserve a greater mention as he out mongoled the Mongols when they were almost at their prime.

That and the Legendary Yi-Sun Sin

The Wikipedia article you linked actually says it was Baybars who devised the strategy for that battle. Also, it was far from the first Mongol defeat, in the Middle East for example they had been defeated by Jalal-ad-Din at Parwan in 1221.

Lord Kragan wrote:
LOL

The first mongolian outright defeat was delivered by Qutuz at Ain Jalut. Baybars faced almost a generation later the further de-mongolized (it's importan to make a distinction, for by that time the command and control capabilities of the mongol hordes had declined as their traditions had been greatly diluted) Ilkanate as it wrangled with their northern brethren of the golden horde. (Though it's still no small feat at all.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ain_Jalut#Aftermath

Um. You might want to reread?

While Qutuz's exact birth year is unknown, contemporary sources address the men as being at about the same age. Most of the commanders at the time were young, as the previous generation had mostly been wiped in successive conflicts. There was no generational gap between them. More than that, Qutuz was an ultimately ineffective leader. His only real achievement in his less than one year of ruling the Mamluk Dynasty was making peace with the Crusaders, an act that contributed to his own assassination about as much as his rampant glory hounding. Baibars role in the plot that killed him was ultimately motivated by years of being swept aside in favor of less competent men of whom Qutuz just happened to be the last in line.

Further, Baibars was not only present at Ain Jalut, he basically won the battle by doing all the work. Qutuz barely even qualified as a commander at the battle (I have no idea why the wikipage even bothers listing him) since he spent the entire fight watching from a distance. He played no real role in the fight other than organizing the force that won it. Baibars baited the Mongol army into making countless mistakes throughout the fight, ultimately resulting in a route and the first Muslim victory over the Golden Horde. Qutuz showed up to the fight at the 11th hour and started acting like he won the victory which not only infuriated Baibars, but literally every other leader under his command. There's a reason Qutuz went on a hunting trip two months later and didn't come back and it's because he pissed off his own army (who at that point were all loyal to Baibars). They all turned a blind eye when a few Emirs got together and decided to kill the guy (assuming they didn't directly help, which Baibars did). Yeah. The Emirs hated him too. I don't think there was anyone who didn't hate Qutuz.

There's a reason he ruled for less than a year.

Winning battles by doing all the work despite having a lower rank than his fellows, and then being pushed to the side after achieving victory, is basically Baibars' origin story.

Yi-Sun Sin

Yes Templar mentioned him above. Yi and Baibars seem to have some things in common



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 Iron_Captain wrote:
Also, it was far from the first Mongol defeat, in the Middle East for example they had been defeated by Jalal-ad-Din at Parwan in 1221.

I think Battle of Parwan qualifies as a Pyrrhic victory. Sure Jalal-ad-Din's army took the field, but his army also completely fell apart in the aftermath. Infighting and rivalry crushed moral before the bodies were even cold, and a lot of that falls on Jalal-ad-Din's behavior. Not even 3 months later a much smaller Mongol army came along and wiped the guy out at the Battle of the Indus and the mongols just kept going.

I'll add in some names not yet mentioned.

The trio of awkward Eastern Roman Emperors Nikephoros Phokas, John Tzimiskes, and Basil II for their exploits and rebuilding of the empire. Despite their other issues, all were excellent military commanders.

Võ Nguyên Giáp - an absolutely incredible military commander who ended up fighting multiple foreign occupiers and ultimately achieved success against dramatically more powerful forces.

Thanks for mentioning them, Vaktathi.

I almost went into the archive episodes of History of Byzantium podcast to pull those names last night. Aside from Basil II, I couldn't recall their names. They all did a decent amount to restore the Eastern Empire. Had the next generations been able to consolidate their gains, the Crusades might not have happened.

Honorable mention to Bellasarius, while we're mentioning Eastern generals. There were actually quite a few great generals out of the Byzantine Empire.