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The Emperor has always wanted to save humanity, have humanity rule the universe, and psychically evolve. The lore from 1st Edition Rogue Trader confirms this (though 1st Edition is outdated), Dark Imperium, Master of Mankind and Word of God confirm this. The Emperor's drive is selfless, regardless if he thinks humans should rule the universe as the supreme race. My favorite bit is having humanity psychically evolve. 1st Edition is where the psychic evolution bit first started.

So why do some people seem to say otherwise? Dark Imperium and Master of Mankind confirm this. I just want to know. That is all.

Which people say what? Which part of what you've said are they contesting, and if it's confirmed by the lore how can any of us further validate it?

I saw at least one person.

But do you expect me to try and find them? I can, but I don't see why.

And the Emperor has been a human supremacist, since at least the Age of Strife.

I mostly mean him wanting to save humanity and have humanity rule the universe. Mostly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Its confirmed by Dark Imperium and Master of Mankind. I am certain you know about those books, yes? But nevermind that.

Well I mean if I don't know what the argument is it's going to be tough to ascribe motivations to it.

Dark Imperium and Master of Mankind show the Emperor wants to save humanity and have humanity rule the universe. Have you read Dark Imperium and Master of Mankind? I assumed so at first. And basically SOME people say the Emperor is not a real human supremacist and doesn't give a crap about humanity.

I've not read either of those books. Which parts say that he really cares about humanity? Like does he say it himself? Does someone else say it about him? Does the narrator say it? Is it an internal thought of his?

 Ginjitzu wrote:
I've not read either of those books. Which parts say that he really cares about humanity? Like does he say it himself? Does someone else say it about him? Does the narrator say it? Is it an internal thought of his?

Master of Mankind is meant to reveal the Emperor's plans for humanity ruling the universe and psychically evolving. That is one of the points of the book. We are meant to see more of the Emperor's plans in the book, why he focused so much on the Webway (especially why he focused on the Webway) and have humanity psychically evolve. The Emperor planned to put humanity into the Webway to shield the human race from Chaos. In Dark Imperium, Gulliman sees past the Emperor's guise since the Emperor could hide nothing from him on the Golden Throne in the 41st millennium. Gulliman learned the Emperor cares for humanity, and not individual humans.

And ADB says it, though he is vague on most other things.

Considering the tens of thousands of years of planning and work the Emperor put into achieving human supremacy, I think it's pretty safe to say he had an interest in it. I still don't know how to answer your question without knowing what the counterpoint is, though.

He is a human supremacist to the end. Even if he accepted other species, they would have to submit to humanity. And the counterpoint is some people deny this.

Onething123456 wrote:

 Ginjitzu wrote:
I've not read either of those books. Which parts say that he really cares about humanity? Like does he say it himself? Does someone else say it about him? Does the narrator say it? Is it an internal thought of his?

Master of Mankind is meant to reveal the Emperor's plans for humanity ruling the universe and psychically evolving. That is one of the points of the book. We are meant to see more of the Emperor's plans in the book, why he focused so much on the Webway (especially why he focused on the Webway) and have humanity psychically evolve. The Emperor planned to put humanity into the Webway to shield the human race from Chaos. In Dark Imperium, Gulliman sees past the Emperor's guise since the Emperor could hide nothing from him on the Golden Throne in the 41st millennium. Gulliman learned the Emperor cares for humanity, and not individual humans.

And ADB says it, though he is vague on most other things.

If it's the case that the expression comes from the narrator of the story, then I suppose it's safe to assume that ADB is of the belief that that's how the Emperor feels. If on the other hand, it's expressed as being the opinion of Guilliman or some other character, then that really only tells us about that character's assumed interpretation, rather than the Emperor's actual feelings. The only way to be really confident of the Emperor's motivation is to read it in a story told through his perspective. Are any of the books you mentioned told from that perspective? I'm not arguing with you of course; I think the weight of lore supports the supposition that he's a xenophobic, intolerant, human supremacist jerk.

As for why people might disagree: a lot of times on these forums you'll find that people intermingle their own ideas about what they'd like the lore to be, with what they actually believe it to be (I do it all the time ). Essentially, that's what I think Warhammer is supposed to be: a framework of stories for you to fill in the gaps with your own interpretations to create the universe you want to play in. Sure, some notions might jar with the established lore more than others, but a fictional universe is never worth getting too emotional over, especially one which the owners aren't particularly hesitant to rewrite when it serves their particular needs.

My personal understanding is that he saw only one way to defeat Chaos; deprive them of belief and worship. His goal was to ensure the survival of humanity, and an ascendant humanity united under the Imperial truth was his means of reaching that end. If he didn't think there was a threat to humanity I'm not sure he would have bothered with it all. But in the 40k universe, supremacy IS survival.

OK, we all know about the inquisition a d the Black Ships. Now, what if, just what if for a minute, a few psykers from each black ship disappear after evaluation? They don't get fed to the emperor, they don't end up in the astronavicom, they don't get turned into sanctioned psykers or exterminated, they simply disappear.

They are quietly whisked away to remote planets where they are carefully trained and well, bred, to produce better, more powerful and more stable psykers, who are evaluated, trained from birth, conditioned, etc, to produce stronger and more stable psykers.

And this has been going on for 10,000 years .

Maybe there is another secret project besides the primaris project to create new, more psychiacally adept and stable humans who bave been raised from birth to be able to control their powers and resist the corruption of chaos.

I'd find that easier to accept than the primaris marines, and I eventually came to accept that. Maybe there are worlds where there are millions, tens of millions, hundreds or millions or more psychiacally adept, corruption resistant humans. Maybe the eldar helped because they know how they fell and would like to prevent humanity from doing the same. The eldar may see a stable , psychiacally mature humanity as in some way either beneficial or at least less dangerous to them that humanity falling to chaos.

Sure, that could be revealed. As to all the psykers in imperial service, maybe they have had gene seed samples taken and sent to these worlds for artificial insemination purposes.

Maybe these worlds might be staffed by police of nulls to help control psykers early on. As they develop they are allowed more freedom but under careful surveillance.

Sure I could buy that pretty easily. These psychically mature humans could become a new police force to montiro imperial worlds able to sense immature psykers, either destroy, contain or help them handle their burdens.

Yeah, no problem. It works. It fits the emperor's plan.

Some people see the Emperor as just a selfish, narcissistic, power-hungry psychopath, who wants to rule the galaxy and/or become a god, essentially just to feed his massive ego. From this point of view, the Emperor can be seen as the true villain of the setting. I think this interpretation has come about as a product of the often atrociously bad writing of the HH books, combined with the rather childish postmodern pseudo-cynicism that seems to be popular among the modern fanbase. (I would also, for the record, like you darn kids to get off my lawn.)

Others see him as a ruthlessly Utilitarian deconstruction of the 'Divine Saviour' trope, who does unspeakably evil things, but for genuinely unselfish reasons. Like Leto II from Herbert's Dune universe or Anasurimbor Kellhus from R. Scott Bakker's Second Apocalypse. From a Utilitarian point of view, the lives of a few billion really don't matter if they're being sacrificed to save the entire species. This fits in with the overall feel of the 40K setting, as summarized in the Inquisition's infamous motto: "The Ends Justify The Means".

The Emperor's final act at the end of the HH was to order himself plugged into a machine that would keep him in constant agony for (as far as he knew) the rest of the lifespan of the galaxy, just to give humanity a chance to survive (or at least to prevent Terra from being overrun with daemons). That doesn't seem like the action of a selfish, power-hungry psychopath to me. But everyone is entitled to their own take on the Emperor and the 30K/40K setting.

Onething123456 wrote:
He is a human supremacist to the end. Even if he accepted other species, they would have to submit to humanity. And the counterpoint is some people deny this.

No, the counterpoint seems to be that you claim some people deny this, without proving that any of those people actually exist or what their claim really is. You're having fake arguments wih no one to prove your beliefs are correct. Again.

And also failing, again. Because all this does is raise doubts that your position is correct, because the way you approach it suggests it's a tenuous argument with a foundation built on sand, with arguments against it out there waiting to be deployed.

Seems ridiculous to call him selfless in any way. His plan is to exterminate every other race out there and leave humanity as the sole rulers. Which is very convenient for him as he's the ruler of humanity...

Voss wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:
He is a human supremacist to the end. Even if he accepted other species, they would have to submit to humanity. And the counterpoint is some people deny this.

No, the counterpoint seems to be that you claim some people deny this, without proving that any of those people actually exist or what their claim really is. You're having fake arguments wih no one to prove your beliefs are correct. Again.

And also failing, again. Because all this does is raise doubts that your position is correct, because the way you approach it suggests it's a tenuous argument with a foundation built on sand, with arguments against it out there waiting to be deployed.

Pretty much this. It's par for the course for a Onething thread, its just that this time he's putting a LITTLE more effort in having some semblance of a premise for a thread, rather than just the usual quote dump and random inane statement. Unfortunately, his responses so far just seem to imply that this thread is another excuse to mention the same topics he's gone over before again.

 Duskweaver wrote:
That doesn't seem like the action of a selfish, power-hungry psychopath to me.

Because it's an act of desperate self-preservation, not self sacrifice. It's all about his inability to accept an outcome whereby he isn't the final arbiter of humanity's fate.


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 Grimskul wrote:

Pretty much this. It's par for the course for a Onething thread, its just that this time he's putting a LITTLE more effort in having some semblance of a premise for a thread, rather than just the usual quote dump and random inane statement. Unfortunately, his responses so far just seem to imply that this thread is another excuse to mention the same topics he's gone over before again.

Could be worse, RT only gets dropped three times on two lines in this one.

Ginjitzu, Gulliman talked to the Emperor after he spent ten thousand years on the golden throne and was in no condition to hide anything. The narration even notes he could hide nothing from Gulliman. He acted like someone locked up for ten thousand years.


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 Duskweaver wrote:
Some people see the Emperor as just a selfish, narcissistic, power-hungry psychopath, who wants to rule the galaxy and/or become a god, essentially just to feed his massive ego. From this point of view, the Emperor can be seen as the true villain of the setting. I think this interpretation has come about as a product of the often atrociously bad writing of the HH books, combined with the rather childish postmodern [/b]pseudo-cynicism that seems to be popular among the modern fanbase. (I would also, for the record, like you darn kids to get off my lawn.)

Others see him as a ruthlessly Utilitarian deconstruction of the 'Divine Saviour' trope, who does unspeakably evil things, but for genuinely unselfish reasons. Like Leto II from Herbert's Dune universe or Anasurimbor Kellhus from R. Scott Bakker's Second Apocalypse. From a Utilitarian point of view, the lives of a few billion really don't matter if they're being sacrificed to save the entire species. This fits in with the overall feel of the 40K setting, as summarized in the Inquisition's infamous motto: "The Ends Justify The Means".

The Emperor's final act at the end of the HH was to order himself plugged into a machine that would keep him in constant agony for (as far as he knew) the rest of the lifespan of the galaxy, just to give humanity a chance to survive (or at least to prevent Terra from being overrun with daemons). That doesn't seem like the action of a selfish, power-hungry psychopath to me. But everyone is entitled to their own take on the Emperor and the 30K/40K setting.

I think its pretty obvious the Emperor is a human supremacist.

We know he doesn't want to become a god. That is just a lie Erebus told Horus in False Gods to manipulate Horus. Only an idiot would believe Erebus. And Horus didn't even believe him, as his talk with Magnus (Magnus was there telling him not to listen to Erebus) reveals that when Horus said so.

And he is certainly like Leto Atreides II from Frank Herbert's Dune.)

And the Emperor ain't a psychopath. ASPD is misrepresented by the Hollywood stereotype. That's all I will say.

He has always thought he alone should save humanity and make humanity rule the universe.


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pm713 wrote:
Seems ridiculous to call him selfless in any way. His plan is to exterminate every other race out there and leave humanity as the sole rulers. Which is very convenient for him as he's the ruler of humanity...

He chose to suffer on the Golden Throne for eternity. I would rather be dead than endure that. I think any sane person would.

And you would be ignoring Dark Imperium and Master of Mankind saying the Emperor wants to save humanity. I hope you are not implying Dark Imperium and Master of Mankind are wrong.

And racists have always existed.

And you would be ignoring Dark Imperium and Master of Mankind saying the Emperor wants to save humanity. I hope you are not implying Dark Imperium and Master of Mankind are wrong.

Do you actually get that those books are fiction, that they are populated by fictional characters with fictional thoughts and views and that they might be wrong?

Guilliman might be wrong, he may be right - we don't know!

There's no absolutes, stop clinging to some and casting about for more.

 foostick wrote:

And you would be ignoring Dark Imperium and Master of Mankind saying the Emperor wants to save humanity. I hope you are not implying Dark Imperium and Master of Mankind are wrong.

Do you actually get that those books are fiction, that they are populated by fictional characters with fictional thoughts and views and that they might be wrong?

Guilliman might be wrong, he may be right - we don't know!

There's no absolutes, stop clinging to some and casting about for more.

We have Master of Mankind confirming it. Haven't I explained Master of Mankind? The book is meant to reveal the Emperor's plans for the Webway and humanity's psychic evolution. He planned to put humanity into the Webway. What about Master of Mankind?


Actually, we do know. Because the narration said the Emperor could hide nothing from Gulliman, as he was driven almost to the point of insanity while on the Golden Throne. The narration said the Emperor could hide nothing from him.

Either way, I am right. Its a fact. Its confirmed.

It is literally, not a fact.

Onething123456 wrote:
So why do some people seem to say otherwise? Dark Imperium and Master of Mankind confirm this. I just want to know. That is all.

Who? Who says this? What exactly did they say? Context is kind of important here because it tells us whether someone was putting forward an alternate theory reinterpreting events as they happened or just flat out making stuff up. All your threads seem to start like this, and it makes for frustrating discussion because the only purpose of them seems to be to prove yourself correct and lord your knowledge over others, as if it's some rare gift.

You make a very specific claim (allegation?) here, so the least you could do is give some details.

Slipspace wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:
So why do some people seem to say otherwise? Dark Imperium and Master of Mankind confirm this. I just want to know. That is all.

Who? Who says this? What exactly did they say? Context is kind of important here because it tells us whether someone was putting forward an alternate theory reinterpreting events as they happened or just flat out making stuff up. All your threads seem to start like this, and it makes for frustrating discussion because the only purpose of them seems to be to prove yourself correct and lord your knowledge over others, as if it's some rare gift.

You make a very specific claim (allegation?) here, so the least you could do is give some details.

They were saying he is not a real human supremacist and doesn't give a crap about humanity.

SOME people think he wants to sacrifice humanity to be a God. But I am certain you know that is just what Erebus said in False Gods to manipulate Horus, yes? Only an idiot would believe Erebus.


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 foostick wrote:
It is literally, not a fact.

.

I don't know what that means, but alright.


ADB wrote Master of Mankind to reveal the Emperor's plans for the Webway and so on. The book revealed the Emperor wanted to put humanity into the Webway and have the human race psychically evolve.

Sterling191 wrote:Because it's an act of desperate self-preservation, not self sacrifice. It's all about his inability to accept an outcome whereby he isn't the final arbiter of humanity's fate.

That's certainly... an interpretation that one could have. It sounds to me like a desperate clutching-at-straws by someone who really wants the Emperor to just be some generic tyrant, though.

To me, it is far more interesting if the Emperor is an inhuman monster who is nevertheless absolutely right and really is/was humanity's only hope, rather than him just being some dumb space-Stalin. I think the few bits of HH writing that are actually good (mostly ADB's work) leave room for both interpretations (as did the old fluff from before GW decided to screw up 30 years of fluff by doing a HH novel series...)

Besides, he's a Perpetual, which presumably means he could have just died and regenerated/respawned. I mean, it is entirely possible there's a reason why that wouldn't work (maybe Horus found a way to stop him respawning?), but from what we actually know at this point, the most likely/parsimonious explanation is that he chose eternity in the Golden Throne to save humanity, not himself.

pm713 wrote:Seems ridiculous to call him selfless in any way. His plan is to exterminate every other race out there and leave humanity as the sole rulers. Which is very convenient for him as he's the ruler of humanity...

I don't think you actually know what the word 'selfless' means. It doesn't necessarily correspond to 'nice' or 'good'.

Is his goal to rule humanity just to feed his ego, or is it the only way he can see to save humanity from ending up as daemon-food?

foostick wrote:Do you actually get that those books are fiction, that they are populated by fictional characters with fictional thoughts and views and that they might be wrong?

It's a bit insulting to assume he can't tell the difference between fiction and reality. People here often use 'fact' as a shorthand for 'established within the canon/continuity of the setting'. If someone said, "It's a fact that Obi Wan Kenobi lied to Luke when he said Darth Vader murdered his dad," would you feel compelled to jump in and point out that it can't be a real 'fact', because those are all fictional characters in a movie?

Duskweaver, I and any sane person would rather be dead than endure what the Emperor does on the Golden Throne. And didn't I say Master of Mankind was published to reveal the Emperor's plans for humanity and the Webway, why he wanted to put humanity in the Webway, why he wants humanity to psychically evolve?

https://www.amazon.com/Dark-Imperium-Guy-Haley/dp/1784966649

https://www.amazon.com/Master-Mankind-Horus-Heresy/dp/1784965367

 Duskweaver wrote:

That's certainly... an interpretation that one could have. It sounds to me like a desperate clutching-at-straws by someone who really wants the Emperor to just be some generic tyrant, though.

To me, it is far more interesting if the Emperor is an inhuman monster who is nevertheless absolutely right and really is/was humanity's only hope, rather than him just being some dumb space-Stalin. I think the few bits of HH writing that are actually good (mostly ADB's work) leave room for both interpretations (as did the old fluff from before GW decided to screw up 30 years of fluff by doing a HH novel series...)

Besides, he's a Perpetual, which presumably means he could have just died and regenerated/respawned. I mean, it is entirely possible there's a reason why that wouldn't work (maybe Horus found a way to stop him respawning?), but from what we actually know at this point, the most likely/parsimonious explanation is that he chose eternity in the Golden Throne to save humanity, not himself.

The amount of circular logic at work here is impressive.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Duskweaver wrote:

That's certainly... an interpretation that one could have. It sounds to me like a desperate clutching-at-straws by someone who really wants the Emperor to just be some generic tyrant, though.

To me, it is far more interesting if the Emperor is an inhuman monster who is nevertheless absolutely right and really is/was humanity's only hope, rather than him just being some dumb space-Stalin. I think the few bits of HH writing that are actually good (mostly ADB's work) leave room for both interpretations (as did the old fluff from before GW decided to screw up 30 years of fluff by doing a HH novel series...)

Besides, he's a Perpetual, which presumably means he could have just died and regenerated/respawned. I mean, it is entirely possible there's a reason why that wouldn't work (maybe Horus found a way to stop him respawning?), but from what we actually know at this point, the most likely/parsimonious explanation is that he chose eternity in the Golden Throne to save humanity, not himself.

The amount of circular logic at work here is impressive.

Its the only answer. Master of Mankind was published to reveal the Emperor's plans for the Webway and humanity's psychic evolution.

Onething123456 wrote:


Its the only answer. Master of Mankind was published to reveal the Emperor's plans for the Webway and humanity's psychic evolution.

Which *might* be relevant if sitting on the Golden Throne after getting bitch slapped by Horus would somehow lead to those plans being realized.

Spoilers: it doesn't.

Onething123456 wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:
So why do some people seem to say otherwise? Dark Imperium and Master of Mankind confirm this. I just want to know. That is all.

Who? Who says this? What exactly did they say? Context is kind of important here because it tells us whether someone was putting forward an alternate theory reinterpreting events as they happened or just flat out making stuff up. All your threads seem to start like this, and it makes for frustrating discussion because the only purpose of them seems to be to prove yourself correct and lord your knowledge over others, as if it's some rare gift.

You make a very specific claim (allegation?) here, so the least you could do is give some details.

They were saying he is not a real human supremacist and doesn't give a crap about humanity.

SOME people think he wants to sacrifice humanity to be a God. But I am certain you know that is just what Erebus said in False Gods to manipulate Horus, yes? Only an idiot would believe Erebus.

Again: who? Seems to me these threads are just an exercise in self-aggrandisement. I don't think I've seen anyone say the Emperor didn't care about humanity. Some may have questioned his methods but I've never seen anyone make the claim you're alleging here.

Sterling191 wrote:

Onething123456 wrote:


Its the only answer. Master of Mankind was published to reveal the Emperor's plans for the Webway and humanity's psychic evolution.

Which *might* be relevant if sitting on the Golden Throne after getting bitch slapped by Horus would somehow lead to those plans being realized.

Spoilers: it doesn't.

Yes. The Emperor is pissed to see what the Imperium has become. But he knows that the Imperial Creed in necessary.

And his plans for the Webway and humanity's psychic evolution as Master of Mankind shows went down the drain after the Horus Heresy.