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Hi Gang,

Played a match over the weekend and this question came up. Counter Offensive works to Interrupt the first attack from a model and take it away from them granting the model first strike (hope I get that right)

How does this work against a model (Daemon Prince) with Flawless Perfection that always fights first in the fight phase no matter what.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Counter Offensive takes precedence I think. I don't think Flawless Perfection says no matter what, just that it fights first even if it didn't charge. Away from books so working off memory, so apologies if I missed something.

Flawless Perfection
If your army is Battle-forged, all Daemon Prince, INFANTRY, BIKERS and HELBRUTE units in an EMPERORS CHILDREN Detachment gain the following ability: Units with this trait always fight first in the Fight phase, even if they didn't charge. If the enemy has units that have charged, or that have a similar ability, then alternate choosing units to fight, starting with the player whose turn is taking place.

First of all, you can only use counter offensive after an enemy unit that charged has fought. If no enemy unit has charged, you cant use counter offensive. First time i have noticed this. Played it wrong all the time Flawless perfection says units with this trait always fight first in the Fight phase, whereas counter offensive says to fight with it next. First comes before next.

Yes, counter offensive and any other "interrupt" stratagems do take precedence over Flawless perfection.


Flawless Perfection just lets you act as though all your EC marines/demons had also charged during the charge phase, letting them swing before any non-chargers and letting them alternate swings with the actual chargers.

I disagree that first is before next, I would argue that the stratagem is more specific than the general trait, but I can see both sides. I guess its another case of GW not writing rules properly.

Is there a Stratagem called "Interrupt" that allows you to attack first in the round?

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Yes, counter offensive and any other "interrupt" stratagems do take precedence over Flawless perfection.


Flawless Perfection just lets you act as though all your EC marines/demons had also charged during the charge phase, letting them swing before any non-chargers and letting them alternate swings with the actual chargers.

In the OP's specific case, counter offensive doesn't take precedence. He asked how it would work against a Daemon Prince, a one model unit. Counter offensive states that you use it after an enemy unit that charged has fought. The enemy unit that charged still fights before counter-offensive triggers, so the Daemon Prince will have gotten its attacks before the other player could use counter-offensive.

Yea it sounds like there was a misunderstanding of how the Counter Offensive Stratagem works in relationship with the EC Legion Trait.

We have two players, A and B, and A and B each have 5 units engaged in the fight phase.

Normally every unit who charged goes first. There is a generic Chargers Go First rule in 40K. Lets say its player A's turn and he charged successfully with 3 units. First all of the chargers would go, then the player whose turn it is would select a unit, and players would alternate selecting units until all eligible units had been chosen. So it would look like this

Ac Ac Ac A B A B B B B

Now lets take Counter Offensive. On that turn where A charged in with 3 units, B can use the Counter Offensive Strategem to interrupt, so after one of A's charging units has resolved its attacks, B can interrupt with Counter Offensive to get in there. But B can only do this once, because a strategem may only be used once per phase.

Ac Bs Ac Ac A B A B B B

Okay. Now lets say B is playing Emperor's Children. EC Legion Trait allows them to always go first. Unless the opponent has a similar special rule -> or Charged. In which case the EC rule tells us to alternate. So if A charged with 3 units the match would look like this.

Ac B Ac B Ac B B B A A

Note that this unless B wants to interrupt with something without the chapter tactics (like a Defiler), B will never need to use Counter Offensive to "interrupt"

If B charges A, then the Counter Offensive can be used to interrupt one of Bs charging models after it used its attack. If B didn't charge, A is inelligible to use the Counter Offensive Strategem even though all of Bs attacks will be resolved first.

If the DP is the only unit that charged Counter Offensive would do nothing. Where you need to be careful is if you charged in with a squad of Noise Marines and the DP. The opponent will be able to interupt between those two activation. So on turns where you charge multiple units in, think carefully and plan your attacks so that your important units can't get gutted before they can swing.

If A Charge Bs Emperor Children, cloud B actived twice in a row with "counter offensive".

Ac B(counter) B Ac B Ac B B A

Skullphoquer wrote:
If A Charge Bs Emperor Children, cloud B actived twice in a row with "counter offensive".

Ac B(counter) B Ac B Ac B B A

That doesn't sound right. You still have the requirement to alternate units if both have a go first type of thing. The B you play the counter on goes because you played the counter, but since the rules say that you alternate units, you'd still have a charging A unit going after the unit you played counterstrike on. The stratagem does nothing for Emperor's Children in this case.

Sequencing rule (page 4, battle primer) tells you that the player whose turn it is determine the order of resolution.

If two abilities/rules tell you they both fight first, the player whose turn it is determine who actually fights first.

 skchsan wrote:
Sequencing rule (page 4, battle primer) tells you that the player whose turn it is determine the order of resolution.

If two abilities/rules tell you they both fight first, the player whose turn it is determine who actually fights first.

How does sequencing enter into it? The stratagem is played and that unit fights next as per the stratagem. After that, as the rules say with Emperor's Children that they alternate with charging enemy units, it would go to the enemy side next since the EC player had just fought and the rules say to alternate.

 doctortom wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
Sequencing rule (page 4, battle primer) tells you that the player whose turn it is determine the order of resolution.

If two abilities/rules tell you they both fight first, the player whose turn it is determine who actually fights first.

How does sequencing enter into it? The stratagem is played and that unit fights next as per the stratagem. After that, as the rules say with Emperor's Children that they alternate with charging enemy units, it would go to the enemy side next since the EC player had just fought and the rules say to alternate.

They are both told to "fight first". Unless you can somehow differentiate which "first" is THE first (i.e. 'this unit fights first no matter what, regardless of any abilities or stratagems that would otherwise allow the others to fight first'), sequencing rule would come into play because they need to be resolved at the same time, as in they both need to be resolved first.

"f the enemy has units that have charged, or that have a similar ability, then alternate choosing units to fight, starting with the player whose turn is taking place." is not negated, however. You play the stratagem, that unit goes next. The other unit is still governed by the rule of having to alternate units with the opponent, and since that unit's player went last, you still have to alternate,.

 doctortom wrote:

Spoiler:

 skchsan wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
Sequencing rule (page 4, battle primer) tells you that the player whose turn it is determine the order of resolution.

If two abilities/rules tell you they both fight first, the player whose turn it is determine who actually fights first.

How does sequencing enter into it? The stratagem is played and that unit fights next as per the stratagem. After that, as the rules say with Emperor's Children that they alternate with charging enemy units, it would go to the enemy side next since the EC player had just fought and the rules say to alternate.

They are both told to "fight first". Unless you can somehow differentiate which "first" is THE first (i.e. 'this unit fights first no matter what, regardless of any abilities or stratagems that would otherwise allow the others to fight first'), sequencing rule would come into play because they need to be resolved at the same time, as in they both need to be resolved first.

"f the enemy has units that have charged, or that have a similar ability, then alternate choosing units to fight, starting with the player whose turn is taking place." is not negated, however. You play the stratagem, that unit goes next. The other unit is still governed by the rule of having to alternate units with the opponent, and since that unit's player went last, you still have to alternate,.

It seems like I jumped in without having read where the OP had taken a turn to - my response is more of a general answer pertaining to the OP where only two units are in play.

It's odd that the sequencing rule does nothing in fight - you no longer have the choice to go first or second as the player whose turn it is when resolving fights.

 skchsan wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

Spoiler:

 skchsan wrote:

 doctortom wrote:

 skchsan wrote:
Sequencing rule (page 4, battle primer) tells you that the player whose turn it is determine the order of resolution.

If two abilities/rules tell you they both fight first, the player whose turn it is determine who actually fights first.

How does sequencing enter into it? The stratagem is played and that unit fights next as per the stratagem. After that, as the rules say with Emperor's Children that they alternate with charging enemy units, it would go to the enemy side next since the EC player had just fought and the rules say to alternate.

They are both told to "fight first". Unless you can somehow differentiate which "first" is THE first (i.e. 'this unit fights first no matter what, regardless of any abilities or stratagems that would otherwise allow the others to fight first'), sequencing rule would come into play because they need to be resolved at the same time, as in they both need to be resolved first.

"f the enemy has units that have charged, or that have a similar ability, then alternate choosing units to fight, starting with the player whose turn is taking place." is not negated, however. You play the stratagem, that unit goes next. The other unit is still governed by the rule of having to alternate units with the opponent, and since that unit's player went last, you still have to alternate,.

It seems like I jumped in without having read where the OP had taken a turn to - my response is more of a general answer pertaining to the OP where only two units are in play.

It's odd that the sequencing rule does nothing in fight - you no longer have the choice to go first or second as the player whose turn it is when resolving fights.

It's because they aren't happening at the same time in this instance. A unit fights, then you use the stratagem to jump queue. After that it's time to pick a new unit, and so you work out who's turn it is now.

If you have two abilities that allow units to immediately fight though, then sequencing would come into play. I believe Custodes have such a stratagem that could be used at the same time as the BRB strat.

They really need a rules clause like Warhammer Underworlds priority system.

Thulsa Doom wrote:
Hi Gang,

Played a match over the weekend and this question came up. Counter Offensive works to Interrupt the first attack from a model and take it away from them granting the model first strike (hope I get that right)

How does this work against a model (Daemon Prince) with Flawless Perfection that always fights first in the fight phase no matter what.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

I play emperor's children, this is how I handle this: EC legion ability says they always strike first in combat.. if your EC are charged then it switches to alternating turns, which makes multi-charging EC dangerous. In the subsequent fight phase, ie Opponent's turn, EC units will strike first unless opponent was able to get a charge off, then one charging unit will strike first, then an EC unit, then the next charging unit etc until all charging units have fought, then the EC will strike before all non-charging units

If I multi-charge an opponents army, I will always give him the opportunity to pay the 2 CP and interrupt, that's how the stratagem works. Paying resources

If you have said demon prince locked in combat when it comes back around to your charge phase and you are able to charge another enemy unit, your opponent has the opportunity to interrupt again (after your charging unit strikes) and target the demon prince before he can strike - the logic of this is questionable in most cases but it is a possibility

RELATED

Does anyone know how Flawless Perfection interacts with Armor of Russ? Armor of Russ allows you to pick an enemy unit to fight last but flawless perfection says you always strike first.