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The Battle Brothers rule for Matched play seems to prohibit soup. Why doesn't it?

FAQ States:
"ALL of the units in EACH detachment your Battle-forged ARMY must have at least one faction keyword in common. In addition, this word cannot be <Chaos>, <Imperium>, <Aeldari>, <Ynnari>, <Tyranids>."

So, how can Blood Angels, Castellan Knight and AstraMilitarum be in the same army? Not trying to troll, helping a friend make a list with Death Guard and Daemons.

 doktor_g wrote:
The Battle Brothers rule for Matched play seems to prohibit soup. Why doesn't it?

FAQ States:
"ALL of the units in EACH detachment your Battle-forged ARMY must have at least one faction keyword in common. In addition, this word cannot be <Chaos>, <Imperium>, <Aeldari>, <Ynnari>, <Tyranids>."

So, how can Blood Angels, Castellan Knight and AstraMilitarum be in the same army? Not trying to troll, helping a friend make a list with Death Guard and Daemons.

Because it only applies INSIDE a detachment. Not across all detachments. A detachment with Blood Angels and a Knight isn't legal as the only faction keyword they have in common is IMPERIUM, which is prohibited, but an army with a detachment of Blood Angels and a detachment of Knights is legal for matched play because all units have a faction keyword in common, namely IMPERIUM, while inside the Blood Angel detachment all units have BLOOD ANGEL (or ADEPTUS ASTARTES if you wish), and all the units in the Knights detachment have IMPERIAL KNIGHTS in common.

Your friend can make an army with Death Guard and Daemons just fine by putting the Death Guard into one detachment (with keyword DEATH GUARD) and the Daemons in another detachment (with keyword DAEMON) and have it be legal in matched play because all units have CHAOS. There is debate about whether NURGLE can be used to bind a detachment together (i.e. circumvent the restrictions on which units are able to be included in the same Detachment) regarding the Designers Commentary and <MARK OF CHAOS>, but I'll go no further than to say that there is a debate, and leave it at that.

Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written in the rulebook, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective.

Ok. I guess that's just how it's played, but it doesn't seem (to me) to be written that way.

When I see "ALL units in EACH detachment in your ARMY... except these <xyz>" I would interpret this differently, but I bet I am in a very lonely group.

Has there been any un-official word from GW regarding this, like on their FB page or anything?

 doktor_g wrote:
Ok. I guess that's just how it's played, but it doesn't seem (to me) to be written that way.

When I see "ALL units in EACH detachment in your ARMY... except these <xyz>" I would interpret this differently, but I bet I am in a very lonely group.

Has there been any un-official word from GW regarding this, like on their FB page or anything?

If I have a bucket of apples, and a bucket of pears, all the fruits in each bucket is the same fruit. I know English is stupid and a 7 word sentence can have 7 different meanings depending on which word you stress, but this isn't one of those cases.

 doktor_g wrote:
Ok. I guess that's just how it's played, but it doesn't seem (to me) to be written that way.

When I see "ALL units in EACH DETACHMENT in your army... except these <xyz>" I would interpret this differently, but I bet I am in a very lonely group.

Has there been any un-official word from GW regarding this, like on their FB page or anything?

You're concentrating on the wrong words. Does the changes above make it any clearer?

@Ghaz: Well, since you asked, I would have worded it as follows:

All of the units in an individual detachment in your Battle-forged army must have at least one faction keyword in common, excluding the following: <Chaos>, <Imperium>, <Aeldari>, <Ynnari>, <Tyranids>. An army may include detachments that share any keyword.

The intent is also made crystal clear by the final sentence of the Battle Brothers rule.

 doktor_g wrote:
@Ghaz: Well, since you asked, I would have worded it as follows:

All of the units in an individual detachment in your Battle-forged army must have at least one faction keyword in common, excluding the following: <Chaos>, <Imperium>, <Aeldari>, <Ynnari>, <Tyranids>. An army may include detachments that share any keyword.

So by what you wrote it would only have to apply to an individual (i.e., one) detachment in your army instead of each (i.e. all) detachments in your army.

@Ghaz: Fixed that for you?

All of the units in any individual detachment in your Battle-forged army must have at least one faction keyword in common, excluding the following: <Chaos>, <Imperium>, <Aeldari>, <Ynnari>, <Tyranids>. An army must include individual detachments that share at least one keyword.

This is as fun as freshmen english!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Cheexta.... Yes. I think the final sentence is where I was misunderstanding the rule.

How does the "detachments which share any keyword" work? does it only require that one unit in the two detachments share a keyword, or that all units do?

For example, there's these "Unfactioned" blackstone fortress things (I can't remember the exact details), which had 2 keywords - one being the unfactioned can-be-taken-in-any-army thing, and one "blackstone construct" or some such.

So if I included one of these in separate detachments, EG one of tyranids and one of space marines, would the 2 detachments share the "Blackstone construct" Keyword?

Root question:
what determines the keywords a faction has? all units having it, or any?

 some bloke wrote:
How does the "detachments which share any keyword" work? does it only require that one unit in the two detachments share a keyword, or that all units do?

For example, there's these "Unfactioned" blackstone fortress things (I can't remember the exact details), which had 2 keywords - one being the unfactioned can-be-taken-in-any-army thing, and one "blackstone construct" or some such.

So if I included one of these in separate detachments, EG one of tyranids and one of space marines, would the 2 detachments share the "Blackstone construct" Keyword?

Root question:
what determines the keywords a faction has? all units having it, or any?

Armies and Detachments don't have a keyword in themselves. The rule is that every unit in a detachment has a shared keyword (and it can't be IMPERIUM etc) and also every unit in the army also shares a keyword (which can be IMPERIUM etc).

Having UNALIGNED units in your army doesn't change this. Every other unit in the whole army must share a keyword. So no mixing Tyranids and Space Marines, regardless of there being any UNALIGNED units anywhere.

EDIT
Also, you cannot put UNALIGNED units in the same detachment us other units anyway. The rule that allows you to have them in your army at all does not say anything about overriding the detachment shared keyword rule. So you have to make a separate detachment for your UNALIGNED units.

 Stux wrote:


EDIT
Also, you cannot put UNALIGNED units in the same detachment us other units anyway. The rule that allows you to have them in your army at all does not say anything about overriding the detachment shared keyword rule. So you have to make a separate detachment for your UNALIGNED units.

Why not?

(Though I do not know of any UNALIGNED units that are not fortifications and as such would not be in the same detachment as troops, HQ etc...).

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Stux wrote:


EDIT
Also, you cannot put UNALIGNED units in the same detachment us other units anyway. The rule that allows you to have them in your army at all does not say anything about overriding the detachment shared keyword rule. So you have to make a separate detachment for your UNALIGNED units.

Why not?

(Though I do not know of any UNALIGNED units that are not fortifications and as such would not be in the same detachment as troops, HQ etc...).

Spoiler:

Spindle Drones from Blackstone Fortress are UNALIGNED Troops.

Because the Battle Brothers rule says all units in a detachment must share a keyword. Nothing in the rule you quoted overrides that. It only references the rule that all units in the same ARMY have to have a common keyword, NOT detachment.

Except the "with the exception of those that are unaligned..." That is literally the exception to the rule.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Except the "with the exception of those that are unaligned..." That is literally the exception to the rule.

Yes but only to the army wide rule, no such exception is given for the detachment keyword rule.

So, furthermore, would "INFANTRY" function as a keyword? IE if I brought a detachment of entirely INFANTRY space marines and another of "INFANTRY" nids?

 some bloke wrote:
So, furthermore, would "INFANTRY" function as a keyword? IE if I brought a detachment of entirely INFANTRY space marines and another of "INFANTRY" nids?

No, it has to be a Faction Keyword.

 Stux wrote:

 some bloke wrote:
So, furthermore, would "INFANTRY" function as a keyword? IE if I brought a detachment of entirely INFANTRY space marines and another of "INFANTRY" nids?

No, it has to be a Faction Keyword.

Assuming the quotations on this thread are accurate, the detachment has to share a faction keyword, but the separate detachments must only share a keyword - no mention of faction.

a detachment of imperial guard which is all infantry and a detachment of nids which is all infantry, each detachment has a faction keyword to tie itself together, and the 2 detachments share the "Infantry" keyword.

of does it specify Faction Keywords to link detachments?

Explicitly its faction keyword for list construction.

Larsen Van de Gras is an example where this is relevant he has the adeptus mechanicus and mars keywords so can benefit from their strategems if you have them but he doesnt have them as a faction keyword so cant be taken in a mars detatchment

 some bloke wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 some bloke wrote:
So, furthermore, would "INFANTRY" function as a keyword? IE if I brought a detachment of entirely INFANTRY space marines and another of "INFANTRY" nids?

No, it has to be a Faction Keyword.

Assuming the quotations on this thread are accurate, the detachment has to share a faction keyword, but the separate detachments must only share a keyword - no mention of faction.

a detachment of imperial guard which is all infantry and a detachment of nids which is all infantry, each detachment has a faction keyword to tie itself together, and the 2 detachments share the "Infantry" keyword.

of does it specify Faction Keywords to link detachments?

The rule in the Core Rulebook explicitly states Faction Keyword I'm afraid! This definitely doesn't work.

 Stux wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Except the "with the exception of those that are unaligned..." That is literally the exception to the rule.

Yes but only to the army wide rule, no such exception is given for the detachment keyword rule.

it is a blanket exception.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Stux wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Except the "with the exception of those that are unaligned..." That is literally the exception to the rule.

Yes but only to the army wide rule, no such exception is given for the detachment keyword rule.

it is a blanket exception.

What makes you think that? I specifically says to ignore it for the purposes of the shared army keyword, you can't just apply it to other things for no reason.

Because it does not restrict the exception.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Because it does not restrict the exception.

It's literally under the heading "Army Faction", it only applies to the Army Faction. You're basically arguing "It doesn't say I can't", which is a logical fallacy. UNALIGNED only permits the unit to be used in the army, not the detachment. The normal detachment rules still apply.

We also know that "All datasheets have a list of keywords, sometimes separated into Faction keywords and other keywords. The former can be used as a guide to help decide which models to include in your army, but otherwise both sets of keywords are functionally the same." -P.13 battle Primer.

So ti is not as clear as people want to believe.

For Matched Play the rules are:

ARMY FACTION
All of the units in a matched play army, with the exception of those that are Unaligned, must have at least one Faction Keyword in common (e.g. Imperium or Chaos), even though they may be in different detachments.

BATTLE BROTHERS
All of the units in each Detachment in your Battle-forged army must have at least one Faction keyword in common. In addition, this keyword cannot be Chaos, Imperium, Aeldari, Ynnari or Tyranids, unless the Detachment in question is a Fortifcation Network. is has no effect on your Army Faction.

Thus, you can have a Unaligned detachment in your army, but all Unaligned units have to be in a detachment of Unaligned units (I'm assuming an Unaligned unit won't have another Faction Keyword).

 alextroy wrote:
For Matched Play the rules are:

ARMY FACTION
All of the units in a matched play army, with the exception of those that are Unaligned, must have at least one Faction Keyword in common (e.g. Imperium or Chaos), even though they may be in different detachments.

BATTLE BROTHERS
All of the units in each Detachment in your Battle-forged army must have at least one Faction keyword in common. In addition, this keyword cannot be Chaos, Imperium, Aeldari, Ynnari or Tyranids, unless the Detachment in question is a Fortifcation Network. is has no effect on your Army Faction.

Thus, you can have a Unaligned detachment in your army, but all Unaligned units have to be in a detachment of Unaligned units (I'm assuming an Unaligned unit won't have another Faction Keyword).

Thank you.

It really is very clear when you lay it out! You can't mix UNALIGNED units with other units in the same detachment. No ambiguity about it.

I still find the battle brother rules to be confusing as well. So from what you are all saying is it still possible to have a detachment with different sub-factions in it that share a keyword?

For example a battalion detachment with Plaguemarines, beserkers and rubric marines as they all share the Heretic Astartes keyword

 Nithaniel wrote:
I still find the battle brother rules to be confusing as well. So from what you are all saying is it still possible to have a detachment with different sub-factions in it that share a keyword?

For example a battalion detachment with Plaguemarines, beserkers and rubric marines as they all share the Heretic Astartes keyword

Yes, that's allowed. You can't use CHAOS as the shared detachment keyword, but HERETIC ASTARTES is fine.

Yes. Only the keywords cited in the Battle Brothers rule are restricted.

The purpose of the rule is to stop you just cherry-picking the best units from different codexes. It's mostly an issue for IMPERIUM armies. The way stratagems and stuff works was intended to make it more advantageous to pick 'pure' detachments, but 'soup' was just too efficient even without them, so this rule was brought in.

If you're confused, you can't go wrong by simply sticking to units that are all in the same codex.