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I was playing a friendly match with a friend at his place the other week, and we had a point of contention about some of my troops disembarking from a Razorback.
The way I played the turn was the following:
1 - declare troops disembarking
2 - transport moves
3 - troop unit move
My buddy then says that the transport should not be able to move after troops disembark, which is NOT the way I read the disembarking rule. I know that the troops will be counted as moving for the purposes of heavy weapons, but I did not see anything that says movement is restricted after disembark - for troop unit or transport. Am I wrong on that? I don't have my rulebook on me right now, but even the GW post below says the transport moves after. Did I miss something in a FAQ?
GW wrote:Units now disembark at the start of the Movement phase, before the Transport moves, but can then move, shoot and fight normally in that turn. This opens up loads of tactical options for both shooting and combat themed armies, especially now that multiple units can share a single Transport up to its capacity.
I am a big fan of using transports to get my CC heavy BT army into the grill of my opponents, so this would big a huge deal if I am running it wrong.
Transports can 100% move, shoot, charge, etc after disembarking troops. The flip-side is that troops can't disembark from a transport that moved in the same turn
From page 183 of the main rulebook (emphasis added):
Any unit that begins its Movement phase embarked within a transport can disembark before the transport moves.
If you couldn't move the transport it would say something along the lines of "... instead of the transport moving.".
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/12 21:19:46
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
Karthicus wrote: Yeah, I think forcing disembark to only be available before transport movement is more than likely an to balance things out.
Thanks Malfurious
no worries. Remember that troops can disembark within 3 inches of a transport and can also move their 6", 5", etc.
most Transports move 10"+ so I can see why GW limited this. Either way, you can keep the transport moving with disembarked troops and use them to soak up overwatch if need be
I often hear the idea that disembarking from a transport boosts a units move by 3+inches so everyone wrongly assumes that means disembarkation and moving are linked and the movement must be done at the same time as disembarking but the rules don't force that. You are permitted by the rules to play it both ways but disembarking and moving are different things.
My bad! BCB is (as usual) correct. In the movement section of the rules it specifically says no model can be moved more than once in the movement phase which is on a different page to the disembark rules. As disembarking is counted as moving, you have to perform your units normal move concurrently with disembarking.
@Karthicus it looks like your friend was correct.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/14 12:59:43
Nithaniel wrote: My bad! BCB is (as usual) correct. In the movement section of the rules it specifically says no model can be moved more than once in the movement phase which is on a different page to the disembark rules. As disembarking is counted as moving, you have to perform your units normal move concurrently with disembarking.
Does disembarking count as moving though? It may be just a separate type of thing you can do in the movement phase, separate of "activating" units one by one to move.
And even if it does, wouldn't the bracket after the disembark that allows a unit to "move normally" after a disembark give you permission to move (in other words, activate said unit in the movement phase) despite having disembarked. There's no mention it has to happen immediately (even assuming disembark even counts as a "move"-activation.
Disembarking can seemingly be done without having to move the unit immediately. I don’t see any imperative to move them immediately in the RAW. Embarking is not a move, as it’s after a move ends. Disembarking is setting a unit up, not moving.
Stormonu wrote: For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
Note that the disembarked unit counts as having moved.
Disembark: Any unit that begins its Movement phase embarked
within a transport can disembark before the transport moves.
When a unit disembarks, set it up on the battlefield so that all of
its models are within 3" of the transport and not within 1" of any
enemy models – any disembarking model that cannot be set up in
this way is slain.
Units that disembark can then act normally (move, shoot, charge,
fight, etc.) during the remainder of their turn. Note though,
that even if you don’t move disembarking units further in your
Movement phase, they still count as having moved for any rules
purposes, such as shooting Heavy weapons.
Note that the disembarked unit counts as having moved.
Disembark: Any unit that begins its Movement phase embarked
within a transport can disembark before the transport moves.
When a unit disembarks, set it up on the battlefield so that all of
its models are within 3" of the transport and not within 1" of any
enemy models – any disembarking model that cannot be set up in
this way is slain.
Units that disembark can then act normally (move, shoot, charge,
fight, etc.) during the remainder of their turn. Note though,
that even if you don’t move disembarking units further in your
Movement phase, they still count as having moved for any rules
purposes, such as shooting Heavy weapons.
Yes. if you don't move it further IN THE MOVEMENT PHASE. You still have the entire movement phase, and the disembark rule explicitly allows you to move normally (at any point?) in the movement phase.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2018/12/21 08:55:59
Core rules under movement say no model can move twice in the movement phase. All of yuor arguments are missing this crucial rule as its set out in the movement phase rules and not in the disembarking section. There are three relevant bits of info that come together in the rules to enforce this. The one above and the two below.
Under disembarking it says the two following things;
1. models that disembark can act normally (move shoot charge fight etc)
2. even if you don't move disembarked models further in the movement phase they still count as having moved for ANY RULES PURPOSES, such as shooting heavy weapons.
Therefore if you count as having moved for any rules purposes and you are specifically not permitted to move twice I think this is a RAW imperative that if you intend to move that model after disemarking then you have to do it at the same time.
You would be arguing that counts as moved is not moving but this opens up a long debated issue here on dakka over phrases like 'as if' and 'counts as' being different from the thing they're referring to. However as I emphasised the words in Caps above I would disagree with you because that instruction in this rule appears to cover that debate. I may be wrong but that's my opinion.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/21 09:03:41
BaconCatBug wrote: You cannot Disembark, move the transport and then move the unit. You have to move the unit immediately after disembarking.
No. A unit disembarking is set up, its not moving. Nothing in the rules says i have to move the unit i just set up right away. I can move after disembarking, or at a later point, after moving other units, but i dont have to.
Transports
...Units that disembark can then act normally (move, shoot, charge,
fight, etc.)...
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/21 09:04:53
Nithaniel wrote: Core rules under movement say no model can move twice in the movement phase.
Under disembarking it says the two following things;
1. models that disembark can act normally (move shoot charge fight etc)
2. even if you don't move disembarked models further in the movement phase they still count as having moved for ANY RULES PURPOSES, such as shooting heavy weapons.
You would be arguing that counts as moved is not moving but this opens up a long debated issue here on dakka over phrases like 'as if' and 'counts as' being different from the thing they're referring to. However as I emphasised the words in Caps above I would disagree with you because that instruction in this rule appears to cover that debate. I may be wrong but thats my opinion.
There is no counts as. The disembark-rule only states that it counts as having moved, if I haven't done so, only references the entire phase, not a specific point in time in the phase.
Example A:
1. I disembark Tac Marine Unit from Rhino.
2. I "activate" the Rhino and move.
--- End of Movement Phase ---
3. According to the disembark restriction, which kicks in, the Tac Marines "count as" having moved (despite not actually having done so at any point in the movement phase).
Example B:
1. I disembark Tac Marine Unit from Rhino.
2. I "activate" Tac Marine Unit and move as given permission by the disembark rules.
3. I "activate" the Rhino and move.
--- End of Movement Phase ---
4. The disembark restriction is moot, as I actually did move the Marines anyhow.
Example C:
1. I disembark Tac Marine Unit from Rhino.
2. I "activate" the Rhino and move.
3. I "activate" Tac Marine Unit and move as given permission by the disembark rules..
--- End of Movement Phase ---
4. The disembark restriction is moot, as I actually did move the Marines anyhow.
All three seem legal to me.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2018/12/21 09:08:16
the Tac Marines "count as" having moved (despite not actually having done so at any point in the movement phase).
But here you are ignoring the instruction to count as having moved for all rules purposes. Yes setting up a unit on the battlefield normally is not a move however in this specific instance the rule specifically follows up with those words to instruct you to treat them as having moved. This is an exception created for only this instance and is not to be applied to other setting up procedures.
@p5freak in another thread you also used this phrase,
GW wrote "as if its the movement phase", which means that all rules of the movement phase apply.
You have to take all rules for the movement phase when an instruction tells you to count as having moved
the Tac Marines "count as" having moved (despite not actually having done so at any point in the movement phase).
But here you are ignoring the instruction to count as having moved for all rules purposes. Yes setting up a unit on the battlefield normally is not a move however in this specific instance the rule specifically follows up with those words to instruct you to treat them as having moved. This is an exception created for only this instance and is not to be applied to other setting up procedures.
It counts them as having moved IF IT HAS NOT MOVED FURTHER IN THE MOVEMENT PHASE.
There is no restriction of actually moving them further in the movement phase as per the rules of the movement phase and the explicit permission to do so for disembarked units.
You're ignoring the condition attached to the rule, which has nothing to do with the counts-as part.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/21 09:15:47
But here you are ignoring the instruction to count as having moved for all rules purposes. Yes setting up a unit on the battlefield normally is not a move however in this specific instance the rule specifically follows up with those words to instruct you to treat them as having moved. This is an exception created for only this instance and is not to be applied to other setting up procedures.
@p5freak in another thread you also used this phrase,
GW wrote "as if its the movement phase", which means that all rules of the movement phase apply.
You have to take all rules for the movement phase when an instruction tells you to count as having moved
Let me quote the relevant sentence from the transports rule again, with the important word marked red :
Transports
...Units that disembark can then act normally (move, shoot, charge,
fight, etc.)...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/21 09:19:57
But you're quoting one part of the rules set as the relevant piece which in isolation means nothing. You could do the exact same thing about other rules and just read the casting part of psychic and say a roll of double 6 is a pass...great move on but you would be forgetting the other rule that says you do pass but also perils. In a similar way you are taking one part of the rules and saying this gives me the right to do x,y and Z and you would be correct if that rule existed in isolation but it doesn't.
I think we might be going in circles with this discussion here. If you read to the top of the thread I previously did exactly the same thing you are doing and read the disembark rules in isolation and came to the same conclusion you did. However because you are disembarking in the movement phase and you are specifically instructed to treat this disembark as moving for all rules purposes and another rule elsewhere says you can't move twice then there is now a set of multiple rules that reduce your options from X,Y and Z to just X.
Nithaniel wrote: But you're quoting one part of the rules set as the relevant piece which in isolation means nothing. You could do the exact same thing about other rules and just read the casting part of psychic and say a roll of double 6 is a pass...great move on but you would be forgetting the other rule that says you do pass but also perils. In a similar way you are taking one part of the rules and saying this gives me the right to do x,y and Z and you would be correct if that rule existed in isolation but it doesn't.
I think we might be going in circles with this discussion here. If you read to the top of the thread I previously did exactly the same thing you are doing and read the disembark rules in isolation and came to the same conclusion you did. However because you are disembarking in the movement phase and you are specifically instructed to treat this disembark as moving for all rules purposes and another rule elsewhere says you can't move twice then there is now a set of multiple rules that reduce your options from X,Y and Z to just X.
There are two ways this rule could have been written.
A) Disembarking units count as having moved for any rules purposes. Full stop.
B) If you don't move disembarking units further in your movement phase, they still count as having moved for any rules purposes.
You have to acknowledge that there is a conditionality, which only applies if you didn't do a given action within the specified time period (here the movement phase).
Or substitute the movement phase for a different time period.
1. If a unit begins Monday embarked in a transport, it may disembark before the transport moves and move, shoot, fight normally in the rest of the week.
2. If a unit disembarked and did not move further on Monday, it counts having moved on Monday for all rules purposes.
There is nothing there that would in any way or shape influence or restrict the sequencing of events on Monday. It just says that if X didn't happen at any time on Monday, we assume it did anyhow.
If, in your argument, the disembarking restriction would prevent a disembarked unit from moving after disembarking, it would do it just the same if you wanted to move it before the transport or anything else, because the restriction you cite doesn't in any way or shape talk about the sequencing within the movement phase.
I think we might be going in circles with this discussion here. If you read to the top of the thread I previously did exactly the same thing you are doing and read the disembark rules in isolation and came to the same conclusion you did. However because you are disembarking in the movement phase and you are specifically instructed to treat this disembark as moving for all rules purposes and another rule elsewhere says you can't move twice then there is now a set of multiple rules that reduce your options from X,Y and Z to just X.
The transports rule gives a disembarked unit the permission to move. Only if they dont move, they count as having moved for all rules purposes.
I think we might be going in circles with this discussion here. If you read to the top of the thread I previously did exactly the same thing you are doing and read the disembark rules in isolation and came to the same conclusion you did. However because you are disembarking in the movement phase and you are specifically instructed to treat this disembark as moving for all rules purposes and another rule elsewhere says you can't move twice then there is now a set of multiple rules that reduce your options from X,Y and Z to just X.
The transports rule gives a disembarked unit the permission to move. Only if they dont move, they count as having moved for all rules purposes.
@p5freak
This is absolutely correct and I'm not disagreeing with you here. The reason I say they can move after disembark but must do so at the same time is the rule under the movement phase section that says you can't moved a model twice.
So you disembark (which counts as moving) then you take a further action on another unit, if you try to come back to the disembarked unit then you will be effectively moving that unit twice which you explicitly do not have permission to use.
@sunny side up
I'm gonna answer your question regarding why the rules aren't specifically worded in the ways you wrote in a long piece of text so tl;dr you're considering a rule designed for all aspects of disembarking but since its the movement phase its still bound by movement phase restrictions which are written in a different section to the rules.
I accept that if you take only the disembark rules in isolation then there is a conditionailty to them. What I think you may be missing from my point is that the disembark rules are designed to handle disembarking in all eventualities such as being forced to disembark. Hence the rules have to succinctly apply to all situations. For example a crazy tactic I have seen recently where someone had a unit of beserkers in a rhino and the rhino moved up its full move then in the shooting phase it fires both weapons of a combi plasma deliberately overcharging at -1 to hit hoping for an auto explode on a 1 or 2 from rapid firing 2 shots. This will then allow the beserkers to disembark and as per the rule they can then move shoot charge etc. Here the owning player does this to get extra movement for the beserkers. Its crazy I know! So the rule in the disembark section has to in very limited space deal with disembarking in all situations. It is explicitly gving you multiple options but the rules writers don't have the physical space in the type setting to elaborately explain like you have. They resolve this by saying you can move normaly after disembark because otherwise people would argue that you can't move otherwise. It also says counts as moving for all purposes to neatly in three words tell you that you are still bound by the movement phase rules if you choose to move. Thats why you have to do it at the same time.
I accept that if you take only the disembark rules in isolation then there is a conditionailty to them. What I think you may be missing from my point is that the disembark rules are designed to handle disembarking in all eventualities such as being forced to disembark. Hence the rules have to succinctly apply to all situations. For example a crazy tactic I have seen recently where someone had a unit of beserkers in a rhino and the rhino moved up its full move then in the shooting phase it fires both weapons of a combi plasma deliberately overcharging at -1 to hit hoping for an auto explode on a 1 or 2 from rapid firing 2 shots. This will then allow the beserkers to disembark and as per the rule they can then move shoot charge etc. Here the owning player does this to get extra movement for the beserkers. Its crazy I know! So the rule in the disembark section has to in very limited space deal with disembarking in all situations. It is explicitly gving you multiple options but the rules writers don't have the physical space in the type setting to elaborately explain like you have. They resolve this by saying you can move normaly after disembark because otherwise people would argue that you can't move otherwise. It also says counts as moving for all purposes to neatly in three words tell you that you are still bound by the movement phase rules if you choose to move. Thats why you have to do it at the same time.
A) If that was the intention (I doubt it), the wording of the rules does not support it.
B) The Berserkers in your case cannot move normally either way, even without the restriction, as the Rhino would blow up in the shooting phase and you can only move normally in the movement phase. The disembarking rule would actually need to be phrased similiar to things like Warptime, i.e. "the disembarked unit can move (immediately?) as if it were the movement phase", for the scenario you describe to be even remotely plausible in the hypothetical.
C) The intent is more likely simply to prevent far more straight-forward things like Devastators can disembark and shoot without penalty, etc.., if we'd want to debate intent.
D) Preventing the Berzerkers from moving according even to your logic, wouldn't be affected one way or the other by the question of whether a disembarked unit in the movement phase can move before or after its transport and/or other units in the army.. If the designers wanted to make that a case, a simple "immediately" or "can move normally before you activate other units in the movement phase" could've easily been added.
E) Even if (!) a disembark were to intrinsically counts as a movement activation already inside the movement phase (as opposed to post-movement phase where the conditional rule kicks in), the extra permission to move (again) per the disembark rules doesn't state "immediately" and the same movement phase restrictions would apply or not apply, whether you use the hypothetical two movement-phase activations for the unit to disembark and move after disembarking in immediate sequence or some move activations of other units apart. Either the permissive part of the disembark allows you to move (inside the movement phase) post-disembark or it doesn't. There's nothing there that would allow it for some parts of the movement phase but not others.
F) A conditions that tests whether "x happened in the movement phase" cannot conclusively apply only half-way through the movement phase (assuming the condition is not met at that point), as you're missing half of the time period you need to check to see whether the condition applies. Sure it does count as having moved for all rules purposes, nobody doubts that, but only once the condition is triggered, not before. And even if it did, see E) above.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/12/21 12:30:07
A) If that was the intention (I doubt it), the wording of the rules does not support it. We obviously disagree on this point.
B) The Berserkers in your case cannot move normally either way, even without the restriction, as the Rhino would blow up in the shooting phase and you can only move normally in the movement phase. The disembarking rule would actually need to be phrased similiar to things like Warptime, i.e. "the disembarked unit can move (immediately?) as if it were the movement phase", for the scenario you describe to be even remotely plausible in the hypothetical. My point here is they can move normally but are restricted by the phase so come the charge phase they can charge normally. This tactic means that the beserkers get the rhino's full move plus disembark 3"+ instead of their normal 6 in the movement phase.
C) The intent is more likely simply to prevent far more straight-forward things like Devastators can disembark and shoot without penalty, etc.., if we'd want to debate intent. Yeah no point in debating intent but if we were I'd agree with you here.
D) Preventing the Berzerkers from moving according even to your logic, wouldn't be affected one way or the other by the question of whether a disembarked unit in the movement phase can move before or after its transport and/or other units in the army.. If the designers wanted to make that a case, a simple "immediately" or "can move normally before you activate other units in the movement phase" could've easily been added. The rules guys were probably told to make sure the entire rules fit into x pages in Y number of characters. Having wrked on video game manuals before, I know that adding any words or sentences are not a case of being simple additions. They would have to fit and work as per the length restrictions for all languages as well. But again this is neither here nor there for this discussion. Your wording would definitely make it clearer
E) Even if (!) a disembark were to intrinsically counts as a movement activation already inside the movement phase (as opposed to post-movement phase where the conditional rule kicks in), the extra permission to move (again) per the disembark rules doesn't state "immediately" and the same movement phase restrictions would apply or not apply, whether you use the hypothetical two movement-phase activations for the unit to disembark and move after disembarking in immediate sequence or some move activations of other units apart. Either the permissive part of the disembark allows you to move (inside the movement phase) post-disembark or it doesn't. There's nothing there that would allow it for some parts of the movement phase but not others. You are correct because there is nor permissive part to either rule only a restrictive part to the movement rules. The disembark rule only tells you how to set up the models and tells you (restriction) to count this as moving. In reality what we are debating in this really long thread is whether the disembark rule intrinsically counts as movement. What you appear to be suggesting is that the words from the disembark rule, counts as having moved doesn't count as having moved. I think this is the ONLY thing you are getting wrong in your argument.
F) A conditions that tests whether "x happened in the movement phase" cannot conclusively apply only half-way through the movement phase (assuming the condition is not met at that point), as you're missing half of the time period you need to check to see whether the condition applies. Sure it does count as having moved for all rules purposes, nobody doubts that, but only once the condition is triggered, not before. And even if it did, see E) above.
I agree. I don't see the relevance to the debate here.
As much as I've enjoyed this debate I don't think we're going to agree here. Arguing that counts as move shouldn't be counted as moving is where this debate begins and ends.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/12/21 15:27:37
Karthicus wrote: I was playing a friendly match with a friend at his place the other week, and we had a point of contention about some of my troops disembarking from a Razorback.
The way I played the turn was the following:
1 - declare troops disembarking
2 - transport moves
3 - troop unit move
My buddy then says that the transport should not be able to move after troops disembark, which is NOT the way I read the disembarking rule. I know that the troops will be counted as moving for the purposes of heavy weapons, but I did not see anything that says movement is restricted after disembark - for troop unit or transport. Am I wrong on that? I don't have my rulebook on me right now, but even the GW post below says the transport moves after. Did I miss something in a FAQ?
GW wrote:Units now disembark at the start of the Movement phase, before the Transport moves, but can then move, shoot and fight normally in that turn. This opens up loads of tactical options for both shooting and combat themed armies, especially now that multiple units can share a single Transport up to its capacity.
I am a big fan of using transports to get my CC heavy BT army into the grill of my opponents, so this would big a huge deal if I am running it wrong.
You cannot Disembark, move the transport, then move the unit. You must disembark, then move the unit, then move the transport.
As much as I've enjoyed this debate I don't think we're going to agree here. Arguing that counts as move shouldn't be counted as moving is where this debate begins and ends.
You keep saying that, but we aren't arguing that.
Of course counts as move should be counted as moving.
But a unit that has disembarked doesn't count as having moved IN THE MOVEMENT PHASE. Not counts as. Not actually. Not in any way, shape or form. It only does so after the conclusion of the movement phase IF it hasn't moved at any point during the movement phase.
I believe this covers the situation. From page 177 of the main rulebook:
Start your Movement phase by picking one of your units and moving each model in that unit until you’ve moved all the models you want to. You can then pick another unit to move, until you have moved as many of your units as you wish. No model can be moved more than once in each Movement phase.
Once you've chosen a unit to disemark you kust move then unit at that time if you wish to do do as you have no permission to chose that unit again in the Movement phase.
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
