Death Guard after the points drop

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**broxus**

So what do people think are the top tier DG units?

-Plagueburst Crawlers: Still awesome especially with entropy cannons price drop
-Foetid Bloat Drones: Still a solid, but due to other units price cuts I am not sure if these are go to units
-Plague Marine: 2x Blight launchers and 5 PMs is only 100pts, that is looking good
-Cultists: The points increase makes me really not like taking these. When I look at them compared to a better unit like Nurglings
-Helbrutes: With Twin-las cannons and a missile launcher they only cost 120pts is a solid value, I just hate them since they dont have a invul save and disgustingly resilient.
-Myphitic Blight-Haulers: Now only 117pts makes them interesting. I still hate they hit on 4s unless you take 3. They still seem overpriced when compared to Helbrutes and PBCs. Has anyone had good luck with these guys? How do you use them? I want to like them
-Blightlord Terminators: The price drop helps. I think these can be great in certain situations. However, I find their super slow speed to be a massive problem. Maybe I am not using the correct loadout.
-Deathshroud Terminators: Very killy if they can get into combat, but they are so slow and lack ranged. Usually they die before they kill something.
-Tallyman, Biologus Putrifier, Plague Surgeon, Noxious Blightbringer: The points drops are welcome, but their abilites are still meh or have very short ranges (all ranges should be 7” in the book”). If they put these in the HQs slots I think you would see more usage, but when they are elites, why bother.

What other changes do you think helped or didn’t help them? What are the best/worst units now?

**Karhedron**

I don't play DG but I face them fairly often and PBCs are the unit I love to hate. 14 T8 wounds behind a 3+/5++/5+++ save is just obscene. Add in firepower that can either bust tanks or bombard units out of LOS and there is not much they cannot tackle. 3 PBCs with a cheap HQ as a Spearhead detachment is brutal, then bulk it out with a Battalion.

**NurglesR0T**

Karhedron wrote:
I don't play DG but I face them fairly often and PBCs are the unit I love to hate. 14 T8 wounds behind a 3+/5++/5+++ save is just obscene. Add in firepower that can either bust tanks or bombard units out of LOS and there is not much they cannot tackle. 3 PBCs with a cheap HQ as a Spearhead detachment is brutal, then bulk it out with a Battalion.

minor clarification, they are 12 wounds not 14. Rest of your points are valid though! I always welcome the opponent targeting my PBCs rather than the rest of my army. So many games I've had where they use nearly a whole turns worth of shooting to kill one or two PBCs - and sometimes not even. They absorb a crazy amount. I'm honestly surprised they didn't go up 20-30 points.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

broxus wrote:
So what do people think are the top tier DG units?

-Plagueburst Crawlers: Still awesome especially with entropy cannons price drop - I've got 3 with Entropy Canons and the price drop is very welcome indeed! Still a mainstay of competitive DG lists, especially if you go flamers/Arch Contaminator

-Foetid Bloat Drones: Still a solid, but due to other units price cuts I am not sure if these are go to units - Haven't really changed, flamers are still a great harassing unit to clear out objectives held by chaff. Still annoyingly hard to kill and IMO 1-2 are still an auto include in most lists.

-Plague Marine: 2x Blight launchers and 5 PMs is only 100pts, that is looking good - price drop on both PM AND their wargear? Yes please! Plague Marine hordes are a thing now and something I can't wait to try filling out a list 30-40 plague marines may not be the most competitive but damn it will be very fun.

-Cultists: The points increase makes me really not like taking these. When I look at them compared to a better unit like Nurglings - I never used Cultists in the first place so I'm not phased by this. If you're going cultists, may as well go Pox walkers now for one point more.

-Helbrutes: With Twin-las cannons and a missile launcher they only cost 120pts is a solid value, I just hate them since they dont have a invul save and disgustingly resilient. - much cheaper now, but still made of paper compared to other Daemon Engines. I keep them cheap and just run them up the board. Twin Las and fist is my go to load out still for these guys.

-Myphitic Blight-Haulers: Now only 117pts makes them interesting. I still hate they hit on 4s unless you take 3. They still seem overpriced when compared to Helbrutes and PBCs. Has anyone had good luck with these guys? How do you use them? I want to like them - cheaper than a Helbrute, much more survivable with 5++/5+++ and synergise well with cheaper plague marines now to provide cover. I think these will definitely see more play time now.

-Blightlord Terminators: The price drop helps. I think these can be great in certain situations. However, I find their super slow speed to be a massive problem. Maybe I am not using the correct loadout. - I've always liked them and now that they are cheaper they are a bit better but still a bit expensive to see any real use outside of casual games (a problem with all terminator variants to be fair though). My usual loadout for these guys dropped nearly 60 points though so that's something for sure. They are slow for sure, so wherever you drop them is where they will most likely stay for the rest of the game so don't commit early unless you're certain.

-Deathshroud Terminators: Very killy if they can get into combat, but they are so slow and lack ranged. Usually they die before they kill something. - Same drawbacks as Blightlords with their speed. A bit cheaper now with flamers being free. 52 ppm is still a bit much though.

-Tallyman, Biologus Putrifier, Plague Surgeon, Noxious Blightbringer: The points drops are welcome, but their abilites are still meh or have very short ranges (all ranges should be 7” in the book”). If they put these in the HQs slots I think you would see more usage, but when they are elites, why bother. - Agree with the point drops being nice, they are buffing characters and help lend to certain builds. They are good now though for filling out cheap vanguard detachments if you were going to take them. 3 characters and a lord will be around 250 points.

What other changes do you think helped or didn’t help them? What are the best/worst units now?

**Wayniac**

To be honest, I don't think anything changes from a competitive standpoint. The point drops are really nice though for everything else.

**Bremon**

As someone who plays DG once in a while but plays against them very frequently, the price drop on Crawlers is ridiculous. Their durability is borderline broken and now they’re even cheaper.

Blightlords needed to go down and at this point I can see them actually being taken. Haulers needed buffed badly, and they may be worth using now as well. Drones were good before and will continue to be good.

Predators and other machines that aren’t daemon engines will continue to gather dust due to being trash tier.

**Grimtuff**

Bremon wrote:
As someone who plays DG once in a while but plays against them very frequently, the price drop on Crawlers is ridiculous. Their durability is borderline broken and now they’re even cheaper.

There was not a price drop on PBCs, only one of their weapons- the one nobody really took.

**Bremon**

So to incentivize people taking the worse weapon on a chassis that is too good for it’s points they make entropy cheaper than las, multimelta, plasma cannon, etc. rather than increase the snowflake flamers? Makes sense!

**Grimtuff**

Bremon wrote:
So to incentivize people taking the worse weapon on a chassis that is too good for it’s points they make entropy cheaper than las, multimelta, plasma cannon, etc. rather than increase the snowflake flamers? Makes sense!

I say this as a DG player, but I feel they want to ease it into its intended role of a trundling support artillery piece and not a non-flying Bloat Drone that it currently is. Encouraging players to take the cannons is a step in the right direction here but I reckon this is only part of the puzzle and the next big FAQ (or a new codex) will change its datasheet in some way.

**Bremon**

That makes sense Grimtuff. I’m a broken record at this point but I strongly feel PBC are crazy good, even as support artillery. A chaos lord helps them absolutely scrap most enemy vehicles despite BS4+. Even when I’ve used them they put in great work even when the dice are cold.

**Nightlord1987**

I hope to see Pox Walker formations or stratagems in the next Vigilus book, since I have about 100 of them...

**NurglesR0T**

Nightlord1987 wrote:
I hope to see Pox Walker formations or stratagems in the next Vigilus book, since I have about 100 of them...

Likewise. But Death Guard haven't been mentioned at Vigilus so unlikely

**broxus**

Bremon wrote:
As someone who plays DG once in a while but plays against them very frequently, the price drop on Crawlers is ridiculous. Their durability is borderline broken and now they’re even cheaper.

Blightlords needed to go down and at this point I can see them actually being taken. Haulers needed buffed badly, and they may be worth using now as well. Drones were good before and will continue to be good.

Predators and other machines that aren’t daemon engines will continue to gather dust due to being trash tier.

Yes they are survivable, but they also don’t kill much. They are about the same points value as Leman Russ with battle cannon and heavy bolter. PBCs do less damage, can’t use regimental doctrines, dont have grinding advance, can’t receive orders, don’t have smoke launchers, and have no strategem to buff them, have no psychic powers to buff them. The only thing they do excel at is they are survivable.

PBCs are good for their points if you want to annoy your opponent, but are far from broken. If DG got some strategems, psychic powers, or chapter trait to buff PBCs then I can see their points going up, otherwise they are fine.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I never realized how good Plague Marines are with some buffs that stack. If you have a squad of 5x PMs,with 2x with Blight Launchers, 1x with a Plasma Gun, and 2x Boltguns next to a captain/DP with Arch Contaminator (like 99% of lists), then you use the Veterans of the Long War on them they do almost double the damage as a PBC, triple the damage as a Blight-Hauler, and quadruple the damage as a bloat drone when targeting a predator (8.3 damage).

This only costs 111pts!

**Sgt. Cortez**

NurglesR0T wrote:
Nightlord1987 wrote:
I hope to see Pox Walker formations or stratagems in the next Vigilus book, since I have about 100 of them...

Likewise. But Death Guard haven't been mentioned at Vigilus so unlikely

There was one shortstory on WarCom about DG on Vigilus, though.

**Bremon**

broxus wrote:
Bremon wrote:
As someone who plays DG once in a while but plays against them very frequently, the price drop on Crawlers is ridiculous. Their durability is borderline broken and now they’re even cheaper.

Blightlords needed to go down and at this point I can see them actually being taken. Haulers needed buffed badly, and they may be worth using now as well. Drones were good before and will continue to be good.

Predators and other machines that aren’t daemon engines will continue to gather dust due to being trash tier.

Yes they are survivable, but they also don’t kill much. They are about the same points value as Leman Russ with battle cannon and heavy bolter. PBCs do less damage, can’t use regimental doctrines, dont have grinding advance, can’t receive orders, don’t have smoke launchers, and have no strategem to buff them, have no psychic powers to buff them. The only thing they do excel at is they are survivable.

PBCs are good for their points if you want to annoy your opponent, but are far from broken. If DG got some strategems, psychic powers, or chapter trait to buff PBCs then I can see their points going up, otherwise they are fine.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I never realized how good Plague Marines are with some buffs that stack. If you have a squad of 5x PMs,with 2x with Blight Launchers, 1x with a Plasma Gun, and 2x Boltguns next to a captain/DP with Arch Contaminator (like 99% of lists), then you use the Veterans of the Long War on them they do almost double the damage as a PBC, triple the damage as a Blight-Hauler, and quadruple the damage as a bloat drone when targeting a predator (8.3 damage).

This only costs 111pts!

”They don’t kill much”. I’d have to disagree with you there. Especially if you take them in any amount of numbers, or pay for a cheap chaos lord babysitter. They’re one of the deadliest things in the book and crack tanks open with ease while shrugging off return fire. “They are survivable”. What a ridiculous understatement. There aren’t many things more survivable, certainly not for the points. T8, 5+, DR means they’re more survivable than a Land Raider. Yes, take them if you want to “annoy” your opponent; having something on an objective that takes a stupid amount of firepower to shift is definitely “annoying”. As for your Plague Marines in your example; predators are clearly one of the worst tanks in the game, or DG players might actually consider using them, and Plague Marines can be shifted far easier.

**lare2**

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
NurglesR0T wrote:
Nightlord1987 wrote:
I hope to see Pox Walker formations or stratagems in the next Vigilus book, since I have about 100 of them...

Likewise. But Death Guard haven't been mentioned at Vigilus so unlikely

There was one shortstory on WarCom about DG on Vigilus, though.

They're definitely there. A unit of Plague Marines arrived at Dontoria Hivesprawl in a Gellerpox infected spaceship. They immediately run underground after blasting away the welcome party and are currently hiding, spreading Nurgle's good work. So far they've managed to infect a vast area which is currently under quarantine.

Got super excited to see how included they are.

**broxus**

Bremon wrote:
broxus wrote:
Bremon wrote:
As someone who plays DG once in a while but plays against them very frequently, the price drop on Crawlers is ridiculous. Their durability is borderline broken and now they’re even cheaper.

Blightlords needed to go down and at this point I can see them actually being taken. Haulers needed buffed badly, and they may be worth using now as well. Drones were good before and will continue to be good.

Predators and other machines that aren’t daemon engines will continue to gather dust due to being trash tier.

Yes they are survivable, but they also don’t kill much. They are about the same points value as Leman Russ with battle cannon and heavy bolter. PBCs do less damage, can’t use regimental doctrines, dont have grinding advance, can’t receive orders, don’t have smoke launchers, and have no strategem to buff them, have no psychic powers to buff them. The only thing they do excel at is they are survivable.

PBCs are good for their points if you want to annoy your opponent, but are far from broken. If DG got some strategems, psychic powers, or chapter trait to buff PBCs then I can see their points going up, otherwise they are fine.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I never realized how good Plague Marines are with some buffs that stack. If you have a squad of 5x PMs,with 2x with Blight Launchers, 1x with a Plasma Gun, and 2x Boltguns next to a captain/DP with Arch Contaminator (like 99% of lists), then you use the Veterans of the Long War on them they do almost double the damage as a PBC, triple the damage as a Blight-Hauler, and quadruple the damage as a bloat drone when targeting a predator (8.3 damage).

This only costs 111pts!
”They don’t kill much”. I’d have to disagree with you there. Especially if you take them in any amount of numbers, or pay for a cheap chaos lord babysitter. They’re one of the deadliest things in the book and crack tanks open with ease while shrugging off return fire. “They are survivable”. What a ridiculous understatement. There aren’t many things more survivable, certainly not for the points. T8, 5+, DR means they’re more survivable than a Land Raider. Yes, take them if you want to “annoy” your opponent; having something on an objective that takes a stupid amount of firepower to shift is definitely “annoying”. As for your Plague Marines in your example; predators are clearly one of the worst tanks in the game, or DG players might actually consider using them, and Plague Marines can be shifted far easier.

Just by the math PBCs don’t kill much compared to most units in the game, especially in other armies. Death Guard as a whole are not very killy so saying they are one of the most killy things in the book doesn’t mean much. As per my Leman Russ example it does more damage, but is less survivable. Could a PBC go up in points? Maybe, but if it did it should be like 10pts (back to its original base cost). That is unless the PBC gets some buffs from chapter tactics or strategems or additional plague weapon options. Right now it is in line with the LRBT which no one complains about.

In regards to my Plague Marine example I just used a Predator because it is toughness 7 which is the vast majority of all vehicles in the game. PMs with that arch contaminator and DP/Lord rerolling of ones is maybe the most deadly things we have in the book (Not verified if someone can confirm). Yes they are easier to shift than lets say a PBC, but they also have other benefits (objective secured). After doing the math on PMs and seeing how good they actually are it makes me want to fit even more in my list.

**NurglesR0T**

lare2 wrote:
Sgt. Cortez wrote:
NurglesR0T wrote:
Nightlord1987 wrote:
I hope to see Pox Walker formations or stratagems in the next Vigilus book, since I have about 100 of them...

Likewise. But Death Guard haven't been mentioned at Vigilus so unlikely

There was one shortstory on WarCom about DG on Vigilus, though.

They're definitely there. A unit of Plague Marines arrived at Dontoria Hivesprawl in a Gellerpox infected spaceship. They immediately run underground after blasting away the welcome party and are currently hiding, spreading Nurgle's good work. So far they've managed to infect a vast area which is currently under quarantine.

Got super excited to see how included they are.

Oh I missed that one. I stand corrected then! Very exciting, maybe this means they will be included at some point

**Nithaniel**

I really like the foul blightspawn as a support character. It can be quite fun when people forget and charge your PM's squads only to find they're not going first

**Wayniac**

Overall I don't think the changes will matter that much in a competitive sense. For everything else though I think it's a good thing. I still think the Blight-hauler isn't good despite the points drop as it still only has a single shot with each weapon, is still 4+ BS and you still need 3 of them to make it worthwhile. It's cool, but it's still not good (and I own 3 of them).

**BleachHawk**

I know this is in no way representative but here's a list of changes in my local gaming group according to the last few lists (low competitive optimization) we played in 1250 and 2000 pts match ups.

astra militarum 11.5% cheaper
ad mech 10.88% cheaper
space marines 6.48% cheaper
necrons 6.08% cheaper
tau 5.76% cheaper
csm 5.6% cheaper
death guard 3.36% cheaper

Considering I never won against astra militarum with my death guard and lost most games vs ad mech, I really don't feel great about Chapter Approved.

**mokoshkana**

BleachHawk wrote:
I know this is in no way representative but here's a list of changes in my local gaming group according to the last few lists (low competitive optimization) we played in 1250 and 2000 pts match ups.

astra militarum 11.5% cheaper
ad mech 10.88% cheaper
space marines 6.48% cheaper
necrons 6.08% cheaper
tau 5.76% cheaper
csm 5.6% cheaper
death guard 3.36% cheaper

Considering I never won against astra militarum with my death guard and lost most games vs ad mech, I really don't feel great about Chapter Approved.

Without providing any additional details, this doesn't amount to much. What kind of lists do you play? What types of lists do they play?

**Grimtuff**

Nithaniel wrote:
I really like the foul blightspawn as a support character. It can be quite fun when people forget and charge your PM's squads only to find they're not going first

Not quite.

This rule only comes into effect with multiple chargers. If a squad charges a PM squad in range of a FBS then it just reverts to being an ongoing combat- which the player whose turn it is has priority of choosing which ongoing combat to resolve first after charges, so it essentially does nothing if you're only charged by 1 unit, 2+ you're golden.

Besides, their main use is deleting big things and/or flyers- the gun has a working range of 14" to 20" (move+advancing remember) and is devastating to big things due to the potential for up to 18 wounds on a single target.

**Bremon**

I’ve definitely had Blightspawn ruin my day before. I’ve also had times where they’ve badly whiffed and achieved next to nothin and then got deleted. They are great for inspiring fear though.

**Grimtuff**

Bremon wrote:
I’ve definitely had Blightspawn ruin my day before. I’ve also had times where they’ve badly whiffed and achieved next to nothin and then got deleted. They are great for inspiring fear though.

Absolutely- They're the DG Distraction Carnifex. I've had people give far too much effort into killing them simply for what they can potentially do.

**Wibe**

broxus wrote:
So what do people think are the top tier DG units?

-Plagueburst Crawlers: Still awesome especially with entropy cannons price drop
-Foetid Bloat Drones: Still a solid, but due to other units price cuts I am not sure if these are go to units
-Plague Marine: 2x Blight launchers and 5 PMs is only 100pts, that is looking good
-Cultists: The points increase makes me really not like taking these. When I look at them compared to a better unit like Nurglings
-Helbrutes: With Twin-las cannons and a missile launcher they only cost 120pts is a solid value, I just hate them since they dont have a invul save and disgustingly resilient.
-Myphitic Blight-Haulers: Now only 117pts makes them interesting. I still hate they hit on 4s unless you take 3. They still seem overpriced when compared to Helbrutes and PBCs. Has anyone had good luck with these guys? How do you use them? I want to like them
-Blightlord Terminators: The price drop helps. I think these can be great in certain situations. However, I find their super slow speed to be a massive problem. Maybe I am not using the correct loadout.
-Deathshroud Terminators: Very killy if they can get into combat, but they are so slow and lack ranged. Usually they die before they kill something.
-Tallyman, Biologus Putrifier, Plague Surgeon, Noxious Blightbringer: The points drops are welcome, but their abilites are still meh or have very short ranges (all ranges should be 7” in the book”). If they put these in the HQs slots I think you would see more usage, but when they are elites, why bother.

What other changes do you think helped or didn’t help them? What are the best/worst units now?

Crawlers are still kings of the DG.
Bloat drones are still good, and teams up so well with flying princes
Plague Marines can work now. Using 6-8 5man squads with blightlaunchers have a high potential.
Cultists are where they always should have been now.
Hellbrutes are good, but not broken. Good job GW!
Myphitic Blight-Haulers are still too weak. Short range on the weapons, and few shots, not really worth, even after the pointdrop...
Blightlord Terminators were awesome, and now they are a little cheaper! Seriously, they are awesome. Always run them in maxed units with 2xflails, 2xblight launchers, and rest in bolters. Use VOTLW on them always, and grandpas blessing when the opportunity calls for it. Drop them in a line, and they become surprisingly fast!
-Tallyman, Biologus Putrifier, Plague Surgeon, Noxious Blightbringer: Agreed

But you forgot the best buff we got! A deredeo pattern dreadnought with a greater havoclauncher for less than 200pts... It will surely go up in points, because it was already a really competitive unit!

**Nithaniel**

Grimtuff wrote:
Nithaniel wrote:
I really like the foul blightspawn as a support character. It can be quite fun when people forget and charge your PM's squads only to find they're not going first

Not quite.

This rule only comes into effect with multiple chargers. If a squad charges a PM squad in range of a FBS then it just reverts to being an ongoing combat- which the player whose turn it is has priority of choosing which ongoing combat to resolve first after charges, so it essentially does nothing if you're only charged by 1 unit, 2+ you're golden.

Besides, their main use is deleting big things and/or flyers- the gun has a working range of 14" to 20" (move+advancing remember) and is devastating to big things due to the potential for up to 18 wounds on a single target.

Yeah I know that they don't always work but I've had games where they pay off in spades because my opponent has to consider whether multiple charges are worth it. I always big them up when I'm running them to put the fear into my opponents about them. When you make your opponent make choices like that the odds are better that they make less optimum choices. I typically run min squads of PM's with a DP or cheap lord for re-rolls and when im in range or theyre in range of a charge its usally always multiples. PM's are not great in combat so making my opponent make only one charge for fear of the FB is win sometimes.

**Wayniac**

I generally prefer 7 man squads of PMs for the fluff. 5 I feel get killed off too easily. But yeah overall I don't see too much changing. Buffs are good anytime, but the army still tries to be an attrition-based force that can't do a ton of attrition and lacks a solid punch to be well as a mono build. At least that's what I've always found; I always struggle with vehicles because there isn't much that can punch holes in them in a pure Death Guard force, and I typically don't want to bring in extra junk like Knights.