Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Title says it all. Inquisition are almost completely unplayable outside of fluffy games, partly because of bad rules support, but mostly because they're difficult to bring and you have to take a ton of them or burn points on Elites slots.

What I propose is an addendum to the Authority of the Inquisition rule:
"In addition, units with this ability can be added to friendly IMPERIUM detachments as though they had the appropriate faction keywords. Units added in this way do not count towards the mandatory slots for that detachment. Additionally, units with this ability do not disrupt faction traits (Such as Chapter Tactics).'

In short, Inquisitors and their acolytes can be added to a detachment, but can't be used to fill out spam. This eliminates the model/detachment tax that normally comes with Inquisitors, and makes them a viable choice again.

It's a start. But Inquisitors still aren't very good, and their retinues are worse.

 JNAProductions wrote:
It's a start. But Inquisitors still aren't very good, and their retinues are worse.

I mean, what we really need is a return to flexible retinues with lots of wargear choices, and all of our special gear back. But at the very list this would make us marginally viable - Being able to spend 55-100pts to add a little bit of psychic support and a decent (if not exceptional) melee model to an army would be something I'd at least consider, even if it wouldn't be something I'd take often. (Especially for armies who lack inbuilt psychic defense otherwise.)

An Inquisitor should be able to fulfill your minimum HQ requirements if they're taken in a Deathwatch, Grey Knights, or Sisters detachment.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
An Inquisitor should be able to fulfill your minimum HQ requirements if they're taken in a Deathwatch, Grey Knights, or Sisters detachment.

As long as we're talking specific factions:
In order for an Inquisitor to fulfill your minimum HQ requirements for those factions, the inquisitor should be Ordo Xenos, Malleus, or Hereticus respectively.

Waaaghpower wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
An Inquisitor should be able to fulfill your minimum HQ requirements if they're taken in a Deathwatch, Grey Knights, or Sisters detachment.

As long as we're talking specific factions:
In order for an Inquisitor to fulfill your minimum HQ requirements for those factions, the inquisitor should be Ordo Xenos, Malleus, or Hereticus respectively.

I figured that was implied but it's good to at least write it down.

I'd be fine with all that. As an alternative, what about embracing having an inquisitor in your detachment rather than overlooking it? Maybe let your inquisitor bring along a "chapter tactic" based on his ordo that overwrites the one you'd normally have.

So adding an Ordo Xenos inquisitor hanging out with Iron Hands might unlock Ordo Xenos strats and warlord traits (available only the inquisitor) and replace their 6+ FNP with some sort of rule vaguely reminiscent of a Death Watch anti-xenos strat.

Wyldhunt wrote:
I'd be fine with all that. As an alternative, what about embracing having an inquisitor in your detachment rather than overlooking it? Maybe let your inquisitor bring along a "chapter tactic" based on his ordo that overwrites the one you'd normally have.

So adding an Ordo Xenos inquisitor hanging out with Iron Hands might unlock Ordo Xenos strats and warlord traits (available only the inquisitor) and replace their 6+ FNP with some sort of rule vaguely reminiscent of a Death Watch anti-xenos strat.

I'd be cautious with replacing armywide rules like that, because balancing armywide faction bonuses is already difficult, and that's when you just have one codex to work with. -1 To Hit at 12" is already powerful for Space Marines, now imagine it on Imperial Guard.
Plus, it doesn't make sense fluffwise. Inquisition don't take over the command and training of Imperial Armies. When they show up, they'll comandeer the available forces and give orders, but they don't inherently change their forces' styles because they don't take that sort of hands-on approach.

So you want to be able to take 4 factions? I don't see the problem with taking a Vanguard Detachment of Inquisition? Take 1-2 Inquisitors and 3-6 of the non-Inquisitor units. Where exactly lies the problem? Acolytes being 8 pts is high, but having stormbolter acolytes at 6 pts isn't fair either. In any case they're at most 3 pts overcosted, so if you're taking 15 of them that's 45 pts too much. Take a Castellan and your army will still be OP.

 vict0988 wrote:
So you want to be able to take 4 factions? I don't see the problem with taking a Vanguard Detachment of Inquisition? Take 1-2 Inquisitors and 3-6 of the non-Inquisitor units. Where exactly lies the problem? Acolytes being 8 pts is high, but having stormbolter acolytes at 6 pts isn't fair either. In any case they're at most 3 pts overcosted, so if you're taking 15 of them that's 45 pts too much. Take a Castellan and your army will still be OP.

Acolytes with storm bolters aren't too bad, but any other weapon combo is trash. They need to have a lower base cost, and have all the weapons re-costed.
Regarding detachements, the main issue is battle brothers. An inquisitor with some acolytes, crusaders and an assassin in a chimera? That would require 4 detachements.

But since GW didn't change anything for them in the last CA, I think it's best to accept their current fate. They're trash. So either take a tiny detachment in a bigger army, which will provide the needed transports, or play pure inquisition in narrative/open play, where you can skip battle brother and might not care about 20pts power firsts on your acolytes.

 vict0988 wrote:
So you want to be able to take 4 factions? I don't see the problem with taking a Vanguard Detachment of Inquisition? Take 1-2 Inquisitors and 3-6 of the non-Inquisitor units. Where exactly lies the problem? Acolytes being 8 pts is high, but having stormbolter acolytes at 6 pts isn't fair either. In any case they're at most 3 pts overcosted, so if you're taking 15 of them that's 45 pts too much. Take a Castellan and your army will still be OP.

"The Problem" with taking a Vanguard detachment is that Inquisition is deliberately designed to slot into other armies. Making a big deal about bringing "OMG Four Factions" kind of misses the point, because Inquisition aren't really a faction. "They're" one character with a smattering of nearly or completely useless elite choices. Since I've played them, Inquisition has never been an army that relied on including their own infantry; the infabtry was an option that was nothing close to being mabdatory.

The problem with taking a vanguard detachment, or any other detachment, is that Inquisitors are not worth the detachment, and rebalancing the units to be worth the detachment would make Inquisitors too powerful as models and lead to spam.

Inquisitors are designed to be single models slotted into armies. I want to be able to play them as single models that slot into other armies.

fresus wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:
So you want to be able to take 4 factions? I don't see the problem with taking a Vanguard Detachment of Inquisition? Take 1-2 Inquisitors and 3-6 of the non-Inquisitor units. Where exactly lies the problem? Acolytes being 8 pts is high, but having stormbolter acolytes at 6 pts isn't fair either. In any case they're at most 3 pts overcosted, so if you're taking 15 of them that's 45 pts too much. Take a Castellan and your army will still be OP.

Acolytes with storm bolters aren't too bad, but any other weapon combo is trash. They need to have a lower base cost, and have all the weapons re-costed.
Regarding detachements, the main issue is battle brothers. An inquisitor with some acolytes, crusaders and an assassin in a chimera? That would require 4 detachements.

But since GW didn't change anything for them in the last CA, I think it's best to accept their current fate. They're trash. So either take a tiny detachment in a bigger army, which will provide the needed transports, or play pure inquisition in narrative/open play, where you can skip battle brother and might not care about 20pts power firsts on your acolytes.

I agree, I was just saying that what we've previously had where storm bolters Acolytes were OP isn't great either. Clearly the solution is to make bolters cost more than 0 and storm bolters more than 2 so Acolytes can come down to 3-5 pts/model. I wouldn't accept jack if I were you, if they're your faction and you love them send a nicely worded letter to GW every two months the next six months and every month after 6 months, I'll guarentee you'll get a points cost reduction. Find some people who work for the balance teams, get people who go to tournaments to go over to the people GW sometimes send to tournaments, get your army changed.

If you really just want that army it's possible, take an Inquisition Vanguard Detachment for the Inquisitor and the Acolytes, an Astra Militarum Armageddon Vanguard Detachment for the Chimera and the Crusaders and an Officio Assasinorum Auxiliary Support Detachment for the Assassin. That's 3 Detachments and 3 factions. Why do you need a fourth faction? I can't get four factions, I'm limited to one faction and a maximum of 3 different faction benefits I can get a maximum of around 20 Stratagems, if you take AdMech or Knights instead of that Assasin you get 40. You can upgrade the Armageddon Vanguard to a Battalion and the Assasinorum Auxiliary Support to a Vanguard depending on what you want to add to the army. If you want to run Knights you can remove the Assasin.

Waaaghpower wrote:
"The Problem" with taking a Vanguard detachment is that Inquisition is deliberately designed to slot into other armies. Making a big deal about bringing "OMG Four Factions" kind of misses the point, because Inquisition isn't really a faction. "They're" one character with a smattering of nearly or completely useless elite choices. Since I've played them, Inquisition has never been an army that relied on including their own infantry; the infantry was an option that was nothing close to being mandatory.

The problem with taking a vanguard detachment, or any other detachment, is that Inquisitors are not worth the detachment, and rebalancing the units to be worth the detachment would make Inquisitors too powerful as models and lead to spam.

Inquisitors are designed to be single models slotted into armies. I want to be able to play them as single models that slot into other armies.

You can slot them in just fine by taking them in one of your three Detachments. Inquisition is a faction, they have a faction keyword, they have their own rules. Their choices being useless is not an argument, Necron HQs were trash in the Index, guess what, that was just tough luck. We didn't have a Wraiths and C'tan Detachment to avoid taking our tax HQ. Now you want to run your fourth faction and I say go ahead and bring that gak to your open play games, but don't whine to me about being capped at 3 factions in matched play, you still don't suffer any penalties for taking three different factions while your opponent takes one, your opponent gets a tiny bit more synergy in his list while you get access to a bunch more choices by dipping into three factions. You don't need that fourth faction as I showed. Back in fifth you sure couldn't bring four different factions. Them somehow being fair when they don't take up a Detachment and being super trash when they take up a Detachment rings false to me. I have seen really strong armies with just two Detachments so they could have used an Inquisitor if they thought he was worth it, but they chose not to, not because of Detachment restrictions but because they had better things to spend their pts on. You can slot them into other armies by taking one in an Auxiliary Support Detachment. Take an Astra Militarum Brigade and a Knight Superheavy with two Helverins and a mid-sized Knight and you have 3-1+12+3=17 CP.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
An Inquisitor should be able to fulfill your minimum HQ requirements if they're taken in a Deathwatch, Grey Knights, or Sisters detachment.

As long as we're talking specific factions:
In order for an Inquisitor to fulfill your minimum HQ requirements for those factions, the inquisitor should be Ordo Xenos, Malleus, or Hereticus respectively.

I figured that was implied but it's good to at least write it down.

Let's not forget about including Militarum Tempestus as well. But, would there need to be an ordo restriction then?

Eh, Scions are their own thing. The trick is being able to create equivalents with the current Acolytes, which do need a rework to be fair.

Waaaghpower wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
An Inquisitor should be able to fulfill your minimum HQ requirements if they're taken in a Deathwatch, Grey Knights, or Sisters detachment.

As long as we're talking specific factions:
In order for an Inquisitor to fulfill your minimum HQ requirements for those factions, the inquisitor should be Ordo Xenos, Malleus, or Hereticus respectively.

And this is why GW needs to just release a Codex that includes all 3 Factions + Assassins. Call it "Agents of the Imperium", give all Deathwatch the ORDO XENOS keyword, GKs all get ORDO MALLEUS and all Sister the ORDO HERETICUS keyword. Now an Inquisitor with the corresponding <ORDO> can be an HQ for a detachment of any of them.
For Assassins, you give them a rule that allows them to be added to any detachment of IMPERIUM units without affecting any detachment traits.

This is such an easy fix that GW could have done instead of Codex: GKs, DW or Sisters. But that won't sell as many books, so the idea probably never even occurred to GW

-

vict0988: You don't seem to be understanding my point.

It's not (just) that no Inquisitor is worth their points cost.

It's that no Inquisitor is worth their points cost *and* burning a Command Point, or their cost+24 points in chaff that will give up killpoints/secondary objectives in a heartbeat.

And rebalancing Inquisitors to be worth either the Command Point or the extra 24pts of chaff would mean making Inquisitors far too powerful as individual models and lead to spamming them in a surpreme command detachment.

I'd be fine with changing the detachment benefits of an Auxiluary choice to nothing instead of -1 when you add an Inquisitor.

(There is precedent for Inquisitors giving "extra" factions, though. In 6th edition, when armies were limited to a CAD and an Allied detachment, you could also bring 1-2 inquisitors and 0-3 Acolyte squads.)

 Galef wrote:
This is such an easy fix that GW could have done instead of Codex: GKs, DW or Sisters. But that won't sell as many books, so the idea probably never even occurred to GW

The trouble with that is those three factions don't have much in common other than an in-fluff relationship with the inquisition.

Sisters and inquisitors make sense, they already share a number of units (death cultists, etc) and a guy on a giant walking throne flanked by weirdly armed henchmen and the occasional monkey looks right at home amongst the other crazies.

Deathwatch should be in the marine book as a chapter upgrade option with a couple of unique options templar-style (i.e. Artemis). They are just yet another reprint of the same units.

GK could do with a single inquisitor entry, a shadowy malleus HQ choice (and named variants) rather than the hereticus carnival - as befits their theme. Though frankly the GK as a whole have become a bit lost in terms of their theme, caught half way between daemonhunters and ultramarines while being overshadowed by Custodes. As they aren't going primaris, and seemingly going nowhere else, perhaps they could do with trimming the fat and rolling with the talons of the emperor as the psychic element of the trio (assuming GW gets back to the SoS in a timely manner).

Waaaghpower wrote:
vict0988: You don't seem to be understanding my point.

It's not (just) that no Inquisitor is worth their points cost.

It's that no Inquisitor is worth their points cost *and* burning a Command Point, or their cost+24 points in chaff that will give up killpoints/secondary objectives in a heartbeat.

And rebalancing Inquisitors to be worth either the Command Point or the extra 24pts of chaff would mean making Inquisitors far too powerful as individual models and lead to spamming them in a surpreme command detachment.

I'd be fine with changing the detachment benefits of an Auxiluary choice to nothing instead of -1 when you add an Inquisitor.

(There is precedent for Inquisitors giving "extra" factions, though. In 6th edition, when armies were limited to a CAD and an Allied detachment, you could also bring 1-2 inquisitors and 0-3 Acolyte squads.)

If I want to have 3 Troops and 4 HQ I need to run an auxiliary support detachment as well or a Supreme Command and a Patrol. You can have two detachments and a 1-2 Inquisitors and 3-6 Acolyte/Daemonhost/Jokaero, just like in 6th.

 vict0988 wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
vict0988: You don't seem to be understanding my point.

It's not (just) that no Inquisitor is worth their points cost.

It's that no Inquisitor is worth their points cost *and* burning a Command Point, or their cost+24 points in chaff that will give up killpoints/secondary objectives in a heartbeat.

And rebalancing Inquisitors to be worth either the Command Point or the extra 24pts of chaff would mean making Inquisitors far too powerful as individual models and lead to spamming them in a surpreme command detachment.

I'd be fine with changing the detachment benefits of an Auxiluary choice to nothing instead of -1 when you add an Inquisitor.

(There is precedent for Inquisitors giving "extra" factions, though. In 6th edition, when armies were limited to a CAD and an Allied detachment, you could also bring 1-2 inquisitors and 0-3 Acolyte squads.)

If I want to have 3 Troops and 4 HQ I need to run an auxiliary support detachment as well or a Supreme Command and a Patrol. You can have two detachments and a 1-2 Inquisitors and 3-6 Acolyte/Daemonhost/Jokaero, just like in 6th.

Again... Did you read my post?
Firstly, my proposed rules suggestion would not allow for 3 troops and 4 HQ without taking an extra detachment. My later suggestion is only because you didn't like the idea of "FOUR FACTIONS" and it'd be a compromise, still paying the detachment tax without making Inquisitors overpowered.

I also don't want to run 1-2 Inquisitors and 3-6 Acolyte/Daemonhost/Jokaero. I want to run an inquisitor with the rest of my army, like I've been playing since near the start of 6th edition, and I've made this very clear.

To reiterate, here is the logic I'm working under. Please tell me where you disagree:
1. Inquisitors were designed to be tiny additions slotted into other imperial armies, and are not reasonably viable except as a small addition to another army. This has been the case since 6th edition, when the concept of multiple detachments was introduced to 40k. (Prior to that, they were part of other codices, and could still be freely taken as a small addition to another army, the choice of army was just more limited.)
2. You cannot do that with the current rules, except by spending additional resources which make the Inquisitors underperform for their cost. In order to avoid this extra cost, you have to take large detachments, which goes against one of the explicitly intended playstyles of Inquisition.
3. Rebalancing the Inquisitor's cost or statline to make them worth the additional resources would also make them overpowered in large numbers and lead to spam, which would be bad.
4. Therefore, the best solution would be to reduce the additional resources that have to be spent on individual Inquisitors.

Why not just make henchmen units into troops?

Then you’d have an alternative to the Loyal 32.

 greatbigtree wrote:
Why not just make henchmen units into troops?

Then you’d have an alternative to the Loyal 32.

UnLoyal 32

All Jakeera monkeys go!

Honestly inquisitors should have stormtroopers, crusaders and mixed units as troop choices. But They should be prevented as being a better CP battery in someway :/

Waaaghpower wrote:

 vict0988 wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
vict0988: You don't seem to be understanding my point.

It's not (just) that no Inquisitor is worth their points cost.

It's that no Inquisitor is worth their points cost *and* burning a Command Point, or their cost+24 points in chaff that will give up killpoints/secondary objectives in a heartbeat.

And rebalancing Inquisitors to be worth either the Command Point or the extra 24pts of chaff would mean making Inquisitors far too powerful as individual models and lead to spamming them in a surpreme command detachment.

I'd be fine with changing the detachment benefits of an Auxiluary choice to nothing instead of -1 when you add an Inquisitor.

(There is precedent for Inquisitors giving "extra" factions, though. In 6th edition, when armies were limited to a CAD and an Allied detachment, you could also bring 1-2 inquisitors and 0-3 Acolyte squads.)

If I want to have 3 Troops and 4 HQ I need to run an auxiliary support detachment as well or a Supreme Command and a Patrol. You can have two detachments and a 1-2 Inquisitors and 3-6 Acolyte/Daemonhost/Jokaero, just like in 6th.

Again... Did you read my post?
Firstly, my proposed rules suggestion would not allow for 3 troops and 4 HQ without taking an extra detachment. My later suggestion is only because you didn't like the idea of "FOUR FACTIONS" and it'd be a compromise, still paying the detachment tax without making Inquisitors overpowered.

I also don't want to run 1-2 Inquisitors and 3-6 Acolyte/Daemonhost/Jokaero. I want to run an inquisitor with the rest of my army, like I've been playing since near the start of 6th edition, and I've made this very clear.

To reiterate, here is the logic I'm working under. Please tell me where you disagree:
1. Inquisitors were designed to be tiny additions slotted into other imperial armies, and are not reasonably viable except as a small addition to another army. This has been the case since 6th edition, when the concept of multiple detachments was introduced to 40k. (Prior to that, they were part of other codices, and could still be freely taken as a small addition to another army, the choice of army was just more limited.)
2. You cannot do that with the current rules, except by spending additional resources which make the Inquisitors underperform for their cost. In order to avoid this extra cost, you have to take large detachments, which goes against one of the explicitly intended playstyles of Inquisition.
3. Rebalancing the Inquisitor's cost or statline to make them worth the additional resources would also make them overpowered in large numbers and lead to spam, which would be bad.
4. Therefore, the best solution would be to reduce the additional resources that have to be spent on individual Inquisitors.

I think I may just be trolling. Removing the cost of Auxiliary Support Detachments is something I think should have been the case since the first big FAQ, when you're limited to 3 Detachments there's no reason for it to cost 1 CP. I'm really just arguing because I think your solution to the problem only fixes one issue for one tiny faction, rather than fixing the game-wide problem of Auxiliary Support Detachments being useless, it also increases the soupyness potential of armies, I don't think you can maintain any sort of cohesion in an army with 4 factions, even if one of them is just a single Inquisitor. Think about using the new Blackstone Fortress gripplies with no faction keyword that can be used in any army, they're a little overpriced but I like the idea of taking control of Old Ones technology, paying 1 CP for each squad is just too insane. Limiting people to three factions is pretty minor, but I'm just hating on the general idea of Imperium getting to change the rules for Detachments instead of just fixing Detachments. Same thing with Knights and Assasins, don't you think other factions deserve more than 3CP for a 1000+ pt Detachment? You can take 3 Warhound Titans and get 3 CP, 3 Gallants get 6. Don't you think other factions would like to just take 3 Elites without HQ tax? The Battalion change also affects Imperium armies more than any other faction because you get access to Astra Militarum. I'm arguing about one faction being fixed rather than the game being fixed.

I really wish GW would release an Agents of the Imperium mini dex, even as a WD article. So many things could be done to include some of the newer models they've released in a more effective way. It should include the Inquisitors, Rogue Traders, stormtroopers, acolytes, ship's crewmen, assassins, etc. I would take a well thought out Inquisitorial retinue alongside my Deathwatch in a heartbeat.

 bullyboy wrote:
I really wish GW would release an Agents of the Imperium mini dex, even as a WD article. So many things could be done to include some of the newer models they've released in a more effective way. It should include the Inquisitors, Rogue Traders, stormtroopers, acolytes, ship's crewmen, assassins, etc. I would take a well thought out Inquisitorial retinue alongside my Deathwatch in a heartbeat.

Initially I was hoping we would get something like that in CA. A single page, just like other codex-less armies got last year, with a relic, stratagem, and warlord trait. And a list of units that can be taken from other codex, and gain the inquisition keyword at the same time (so mostly transports, crusaders and priests).
It didn't happen. But now it looks like a lot of small content like that will instead be printed in WD. So maybe there's still hope.

I also think there's a model issue here. I believe GW doesn't want to push the inquisition forward, because they don't have the models to sell with the rules. They might be afraid that giving the inquisition proper rules will mean people will buy models from other companies to fill their units. Or use old models they already have (which doesn't generate sells). Focusing on more recent model lines is a better business strategy.

The basic problem with the Inquisition is that their identity has been reduced to "oh, these are the guys that kill (aliens/daemons/psykers) too efficiently", so you end up with a matchup-balance problem wherein giving them interesting rules that are applicable only when fighting specific Codexes are either useless or screw that Codex.

Within the framework of 8e I think the best thing to make Inquisitors do is unlock an array of stratagems that do interesting things, but the matchup-balance problem sort of screws that as an idea if you want to make them the "f*** (Codex (X))" stratagem, so you have to do them in a way that makes them relevant to a broader array of situations.

Consider the Deathwatch and their "f*** (Codex (X))" stratagems; the only ones that need to reference a specific book are the Markerlight and the Reanimation Protocols ones, you could easily remove the clause specifying it can only be used against enemies with a specific keyword from the rest of them. You'd end up with stratagems designed to counter a specific Codex but applicable against a wider array of enemies; troops trained to fight a specific enemy but finding that their training is applicable in a wider variety of situations. I don't think there's a good reason that Intercepting Volley (shoot in response to an Eldar model with Fly moving to a point within 12") doesn't work against anyone else's jetbikes/skimmers/aircraft, for instance.

So going back to the Inquisition more generally what you'd need is a set of stratagems designed to counter specific Codexes but which are more broadly applicable, which the Inquisitor brings with him as support tools to other Imperial armies. An Ordo Xenos Inquisitor would bring slightly worse versions of the Deathwatch ones ("Stem the Tide" reducing the enemy charge distance by 1"/2 casualties instead of 1"/casualty, for instance), an Ordo Malleus Inquisitor would bring some kind of anti-Invul/anti-Deepstrike tech (-1 to Invul saves, something like Auspex Scan), and an Ordo Hereticus Inquisitor would be primarily anti-character/morale-based (Ld-penalty bubble, or some such). Then you take these stratagems and make them work on Imperium units within, say, 6" of an Inquisitor of the correct type; and then you've got Inquisitors doing interesting support things rather than just being a worse expensive underarmoured melee punching character you could take to accomplish very little.