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So just wondering why the Wraithknight was only dropped to 315pts (which is great of course compared to where it was) rather than to 285pts, which is the base cost of the Imperial equivalent. For sure there are some pros and cons to the wraithknight in comparison...

pros
1. Better movement after degraded (not really worth the 30pts tax IMHO)
2. Immunity to haywire (with skyweavers a thing, this is a huge bonus)
3. Ability to be buffed by psykers, mostly Guide and Fortune....but this probably shouldn't be costed into the wraithknight.

cons
1. No natural invuln, has to buy it at +30pts and limits weapon options at that point.
2. No ability to take relics, warlord traits, etc.
3. Worse stats for the close combat variant

So even though the wraithknight can't be mulched by HW, and can get buffs from a Farseer, I think these are definitely offset by the bonuses Knights get in the way of traits, strategems, relics (not to mention ability to gain extra CPs with base formations).
Really think the WK should have also been costed at 285pts base.

Sometimes points are a feeling.

Bonesinger, plus strat heal is 4 wounds average. Exploding attacks on 6s for 1 CP. Double it's attacks (once) with the artifact and fairly easy full rerolls to hit for 1 CP. A 5+++, and possibly Doom, are easy enough to achieve. Scattershield is also always on.

So, you have 8 * 1.167 * .888 * .998 * 6 = 50 damage to ...pretty much any vehicle with no melee invuln or 15 MEQ or 22 GEQ. Without Doom it's a bit less, but not by much.

A Gallant could do 9 or so wounds to a WK if it had it's FNP up. Even the Castellan has a hard time cracking it if FNP is around.

I can't say everything is spot on for points, but we have to work on the assumption of other factors and the possibility that knights haven't been reconsidered for points as well.

HWC are in a weird place. A Suncannon and a couple Starcannons is like a Ravager with a handful more shots at a bit better strength (though S6 D2 doesn't scare much more than S5 D2) and then add on that it's a platform that can run around and punch stuff or stomp with it's free fists.

Immunity to haywire (and thankfully poison) is just a nifty meta breaker.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Sometimes points are a feeling.

Bonesinger, plus strat heal is 4 wounds average. Exploding attacks on 6s for 1 CP. Double it's attacks (once) with the artifact and fairly easy full rerolls to hit for 1 CP. A 5+++, and possibly Doom, are easy enough to achieve. Scattershield is also always on.

So, you have 8 * 1.167 * .888 * .998 * 6 = 50 damage to ...pretty much any vehicle with no melee invuln or 15 MEQ or 22 GEQ. Without Doom it's a bit less, but not by much.

A Gallant could do 9 or so wounds to a WK if it had it's FNP up. Even the Castellan has a hard time cracking it if FNP is around.

I can't say everything is spot on for points, but we have to work on the assumption of other factors and the possibility that knights haven't been reconsidered for points as well.

HWC are in a weird place. A Suncannon and a couple Starcannons is like a Ravager with a handful more shots at a bit better strength (though S6 D2 doesn't scare much more than S5 D2) and then add on that it's a platform that can run around and punch stuff or stomp with it's free fists.

Immunity to haywire (and thankfully poison) is just a nifty meta breaker.

Definitely reaching a little there. have you ever seen anyone take a Bonesinger? The strat at 2CP is probably not worth it when there are so many better options. The psytronome also means the Spiritseer needs to be within 6" at time of hit, and is again another boost in points.
This is my point.. Everything that makes the WK good/better costs more points...a farseer, a spiritseer, a Bonesinger (nope). Knights don't need that. hence why I think the points should be matched.

Wraithknights are a good, middle of the road unit at this point, that you can build your army around supporting and make quite good.

Imperial knights are an abomination on the current balance of the game, skewing the meta heavily in the scramble to deal with something that can deal THAT much damage while being THAT hard to bring down in a single round.

it is better to be the first than the second.

WKs also don't have a Strat to give them +1 to their invul either.
I am not counting the WriathHost strat with the Spiritseer here because it requires a Spiritseer and 2CPs minimum, compared to the IKs "just spend a CP"

Personally, I'd be ok with the slight disparity *if* they could buy Spirit Stones. They is no legit reason WKs and WLs, constructs powered by and COVERED with Spirit Stones, shouldn't actually have the option for them.

But after that, WKs are really paying for the specialization.
I personally find versatility more valuable, but GW does not (at least in this case). For example, the HWC WK is obviously better at killing other Knight equivalents than any current Knight, so the WK pays for that. Even though that particular variant has no invul at all

the_scotsman wrote:
Wraithknights are a good, middle of the road unit at this point, that you can build your army around supporting and make quite good.

Imperial knights are an abomination on the current balance of the game, skewing the meta heavily in the scramble to deal with something that can deal THAT much damage while being THAT hard to bring down in a single round.

it is better to be the first than the second.

Wholeheartedly agree. If Knights get a few slight nerfs, just enough to make a few drop out of the "meta", then the meta shifts to not bring so many anti-Knight weapons, and indirectly makes WKs better

-

 Daedalus81 wrote:
So, you have 8 * 1.167 * .888 * .998 * 6 = 50 damage to ...pretty much any vehicle with no melee invuln or 15 MEQ or 22 GEQ. Without Doom it's a bit less, but not by much.

Please explain how a WK is killing 22 GEQ in a turn of melee...

Wraithknights are so close to being a reasonable unit. Give them a 5+ FNP and call it a day, or maybe free shoulder weapons. Buff the suncannon a little - make it a solid 12 shots.

Iyanden Wraith host strat: +1 attack characteristic, psytronome to double attack characteristics, spiritseer strat to reroll all misses, supreme disdain makes all attacks explode on a 6+, each giving 3 more stomps (confirmed by rules writers apparently, can't source I'm afraid)

=33 stomped guardsmen.

Cost is 1 cp for host, then 1 for +1 strat, 1 for disdain, one for seer strat, plus a one-use relic. It's a very hefty bill and you have to build around it, but the combo is feasible and curbstomps most things if it goes off.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

HuskyWarhammer wrote:
Wraithknights are so close to being a reasonable unit. Give them a 5+ FNP and call it a day, or maybe free shoulder weapons. Buff the suncannon a little - make it a solid 12 shots.

Agreed, it's their weapons that stink. Suncannon @ 12 would make such a big difference, bringing it into line with the avenger. Would make my day!

the_scotsman wrote:
Imperial knights are an abomination on the current balance of the game, skewing the meta heavily in the scramble to deal with something that can deal THAT much damage while being THAT hard to bring down in a single round.

This.

Under no circumstances should IKs be used as a measure for balance.

I think iks are far easier to deal with than drukhari or ig.

 mokoshkana wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
So, you have 8 * 1.167 * .888 * .998 * 6 = 50 damage to ...pretty much any vehicle with no melee invuln or 15 MEQ or 22 GEQ. Without Doom it's a bit less, but not by much.

Please explain how a WK is killing 22 GEQ in a turn of melee...

Didn't check the math but if those numbers are true...

15 MEQ @ 13 ppm = 195 pts killed
22 GEQ @ 4 ppm = 88 pts killed

STAGGERING!

 mokoshkana wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
So, you have 8 * 1.167 * .888 * .998 * 6 = 50 damage to ...pretty much any vehicle with no melee invuln or 15 MEQ or 22 GEQ. Without Doom it's a bit less, but not by much.

Please explain how a WK is killing 22 GEQ in a turn of melee...

4 attacks doubled to 8. Exploding on 6s. That number tripled for stomps. Rerolls to hit, 2s to wound, and no save for GEQ.

So, 24 * 1.167 * .888 * .833 = 21, Doom adds to that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 skchsan wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
So, you have 8 * 1.167 * .888 * .998 * 6 = 50 damage to ...pretty much any vehicle with no melee invuln or 15 MEQ or 22 GEQ. Without Doom it's a bit less, but not by much.

Please explain how a WK is killing 22 GEQ in a turn of melee...

Didn't check the math but if those numbers are true...

15 MEQ @ 13 ppm = 195 pts killed
22 GEQ @ 4 ppm = 88 pts killed

STAGGERING!

Less about points and more about making opportunities with the options available. Stomping out 3 squads with morale clears up a lot of board space.

But if you want to focus on that instead of it being able to ace a super heavy with only 7 wounds left then...*shrug*

To evaluate the cost of a unit you have to think about the overall balance of the codex and the role each units have within the codex, not unit per unit like you're doing.
I'm not saying that WK are undercosted or overcoster - I just don't know, I don't have a good knowledge of the eldar codex in v8 - but through the comparison with IK you make it seems like all units of equivalent power should have the same point cost which is not really a good way to balance things out : there should be some codex that have an advantage in some area. In this regards, as you indirectly points out in the comparison you make between WK and IK, IK do not have direct access to buff in the psychic phase.

my simple point is that the IK has a cost attached to it's base chassis. Knights have serious pros and some cons. The Wk has the same statline (worse if melee variant) and therefore should cost the same 285pts. The WK also has pros and cons which I think offset for the IK. Ideally, IKs should come up to 315pts like the WK.

As to the suncannon, it did get a huge drop in points but still only 15pts cheaper than the Avenger which has that guaranteed 12 shots to the average 7 of the suncannon. Yes, -3AP is better but damage 2 from the avenger is better than D3 from the suncannon.

 bullyboy wrote:
my simple point is that the IK has a cost attached to it's base chassis. Knights have serious pros and some cons. The Wk has the same statline (worse if melee variant) and therefore should cost the same 285pts. The WK also has pros and cons which I think offset for the IK. Ideally, IKs should come up to 315pts like the WK.

As to the suncannon, it did get a huge drop in points but still only 15pts cheaper than the Avenger which has that guaranteed 12 shots to the average 7 of the suncannon. Yes, -3AP is better but damage 2 from the avenger is better than D3 from the suncannon.

Yea, I think the unsolvable questions right now are if Knights are properly costed or not and to what degree GW balances a codex outside it's own book.

The WK seems surprisingly well (as in properly, not as in OP) pointed after CA.

Would be nice if more things were pointed that way.

(You won't regularly have all the buffs listed above. We're talking 4+ CP, 3+ HQs, and passing 3+ Psykic Tests - that's not happening every round, if at all. And that's before we're talking about all the added points and movement problems.)

Wraithknight must pay! Pay I say! For the sins of their past!

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
So, you have 8 * 1.167 * .888 * .998 * 6 = 50 damage to ...pretty much any vehicle with no melee invuln or 15 MEQ or 22 GEQ. Without Doom it's a bit less, but not by much.

Please explain how a WK is killing 22 GEQ in a turn of melee...

4 attacks doubled to 8. Exploding on 6s. That number tripled for stomps. Rerolls to hit, 2s to wound, and no save for GEQ.

So, 24 * 1.167 * .888 * .833 = 21, Doom adds to that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 skchsan wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
So, you have 8 * 1.167 * .888 * .998 * 6 = 50 damage to ...pretty much any vehicle with no melee invuln or 15 MEQ or 22 GEQ. Without Doom it's a bit less, but not by much.

Please explain how a WK is killing 22 GEQ in a turn of melee...

Didn't check the math but if those numbers are true...

15 MEQ @ 13 ppm = 195 pts killed
22 GEQ @ 4 ppm = 88 pts killed

STAGGERING!

Less about points and more about making opportunities with the options available. Stomping out 3 squads with morale clears up a lot of board space.

But if you want to focus on that instead of it being able to ace a super heavy with only 7 wounds left then...*shrug*

So your entire premise relies on the WK being Iyanden and having a Spiritseer, who only allow rerolls of 1's when an enemy unit is within 6" of the them, so 2's still miss, keep up with it? That doesn't make them remotely close to good...

IK are just the other side of the Horde Meta.

All the extremes need to be nerfed to some extent.

 mokoshkana wrote:
So your entire premise relies on the WK being Iyanden and having a Spiritseer, who only allow rerolls of 1's when an enemy unit is within 6" of the them, so 2's still miss, keep up with it? That doesn't make them remotely close to good...

12" with Wraithsight

It doesn't need to be OP to be good. If you think the WK isn't even "remotely close to good" then there isn't much else we can discuss.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:
So your entire premise relies on the WK being Iyanden and having a Spiritseer, who only allow rerolls of 1's when an enemy unit is within 6" of the them, so 2's still miss, keep up with it? That doesn't make them remotely close to good...

12" with Wraithsight

It doesn't need to be OP to be good. If you think the WK isn't even "remotely close to good" then there isn't much else we can discuss.

On its own, the WK is not even remotely close to being good compared to the IK. If you take a specific craftworld and spend tons of points on other models and CP to buff the WK, it starts to look better, while the IK needs a few CP and its off and running.

Make no mistake, I don't want the WK to be OP like it was in 7th edition, but I would love to see if be better, especially the sword variant. The sword should grant 2 attacks per base attack or something of that nature as it gives up shooting capabilities, and the stomp is generally better in every scenario due to weight of dice. The Suncannon should NOT have variable shots, or at the very least be 6 + D6. Also, the model really should come with a 6+++ stock from spirit stones, or the ability to at least purchase that buff.

"On its own, the WK is not even remotely close to being good compared to the IK."
But how good is it compared to things like Dreads? Stompas? NDKs?

Not much in this game is good compared to the IK.

Twins with one dead that also pilot wraith constructs are rare. I suppose more rare than space monkey god machines and their pilots...

Bharring wrote:
"On its own, the WK is not even remotely close to being good compared to the IK."
But how good is it compared to things like Dreads? Stompas? NDKs?

Not much in this game is good compared to the IK.

Dreadnaughts aren't in the same class, so they shouldn't be compared. They are more appropriate to compare with a Wraith Lord, as both of those are Heavy Support, not LoW.
Stompas are trash for their points like all titans. If you took a Stompa based on its power it could be alright.
What is an NDK?

 mokoshkana wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:
So your entire premise relies on the WK being Iyanden and having a Spiritseer, who only allow rerolls of 1's when an enemy unit is within 6" of the them, so 2's still miss, keep up with it? That doesn't make them remotely close to good...

12" with Wraithsight

It doesn't need to be OP to be good. If you think the WK isn't even "remotely close to good" then there isn't much else we can discuss.

On its own, the WK is not even remotely close to being good compared to the IK. If you take a specific craftworld and spend tons of points on other models and CP to buff the WK, it starts to look better, while the IK needs a few CP and its off and running.

Make no mistake, I don't want the WK to be OP like it was in 7th edition, but I would love to see if be better, especially the sword variant. The sword should grant 2 attacks per base attack or something of that nature as it gives up shooting capabilities, and the stomp is generally better in every scenario due to weight of dice. The Suncannon should NOT have variable shots, or at the very least be 6 + D6. Also, the model really should come with a 6+++ stock from spirit stones, or the ability to at least purchase that buff.

And what does it take to get all that CP for the knight?

Nemisis Dread Knight.

There isn't much in the Kngiht class that isn't in the IK book. THe problem is that the units in the IK book outperform most other armies. As such, it's hard to say they're pointed correctly. So using them as a reference point for balance is problematic.

Hence, I'm suggesting looking at how "CWE army with WK" performs against "other army", as opposed to just looking at WK vs IK.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:
So your entire premise relies on the WK being Iyanden and having a Spiritseer, who only allow rerolls of 1's when an enemy unit is within 6" of the them, so 2's still miss, keep up with it? That doesn't make them remotely close to good...

12" with Wraithsight

It doesn't need to be OP to be good. If you think the WK isn't even "remotely close to good" then there isn't much else we can discuss.

On its own, the WK is not even remotely close to being good compared to the IK. If you take a specific craftworld and spend tons of points on other models and CP to buff the WK, it starts to look better, while the IK needs a few CP and its off and running.

Make no mistake, I don't want the WK to be OP like it was in 7th edition, but I would love to see if be better, especially the sword variant. The sword should grant 2 attacks per base attack or something of that nature as it gives up shooting capabilities, and the stomp is generally better in every scenario due to weight of dice. The Suncannon should NOT have variable shots, or at the very least be 6 + D6. Also, the model really should come with a 6+++ stock from spirit stones, or the ability to at least purchase that buff.

And what does it take to get all that CP for the knight?

Good ol' Loyal 32! You can get an extra 5CP for roughly 200 points (I'm not sure of the exact number) and everything just works unless you happen to be playing someone with Agents of Vect. For the WK to be pumped up, you need a Farseer (who doesn't fail a test or get powers denied), a Spiritseer (which has to keep up with a WK that is nigh double its speed), a relic, the Iyanden trait, and the CP on top of it all. The WK takes an entire team to make it viable, while the IK only takes the CP from whatever army you brought.

 mokoshkana wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:
So your entire premise relies on the WK being Iyanden and having a Spiritseer, who only allow rerolls of 1's when an enemy unit is within 6" of the them, so 2's still miss, keep up with it? That doesn't make them remotely close to good...

12" with Wraithsight

It doesn't need to be OP to be good. If you think the WK isn't even "remotely close to good" then there isn't much else we can discuss.

On its own, the WK is not even remotely close to being good compared to the IK. If you take a specific craftworld and spend tons of points on other models and CP to buff the WK, it starts to look better, while the IK needs a few CP and its off and running.

Make no mistake, I don't want the WK to be OP like it was in 7th edition, but I would love to see if be better, especially the sword variant. The sword should grant 2 attacks per base attack or something of that nature as it gives up shooting capabilities, and the stomp is generally better in every scenario due to weight of dice. The Suncannon should NOT have variable shots, or at the very least be 6 + D6. Also, the model really should come with a 6+++ stock from spirit stones, or the ability to at least purchase that buff.

And what does it take to get all that CP for the knight?

Good ol' Loyal 32! You can get an extra 5CP for roughly 200 points (I'm not sure of the exact number) and everything just works unless you happen to be playing someone with Agents of Vect. For the WK to be pumped up, you need a Farseer (who doesn't fail a test or get powers denied), a Spiritseer (which has to keep up with a WK that is nigh double its speed), a relic, the Iyanden trait, and the CP on top of it all. The WK takes an entire team to make it viable, while the IK only takes the CP from whatever army you brought.

I mean, we can make pretty much any unit good if we add enough support to it. That seems to be what the people who think WK is fine don't seem to understand - in order to get it to something that's middle-of-the-road good, you have to invest a massive amount of resources.

 mokoshkana wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 mokoshkana wrote:
So your entire premise relies on the WK being Iyanden and having a Spiritseer, who only allow rerolls of 1's when an enemy unit is within 6" of the them, so 2's still miss, keep up with it? That doesn't make them remotely close to good...

12" with Wraithsight

It doesn't need to be OP to be good. If you think the WK isn't even "remotely close to good" then there isn't much else we can discuss.

On its own, the WK is not even remotely close to being good compared to the IK. If you take a specific craftworld and spend tons of points on other models and CP to buff the WK, it starts to look better, while the IK needs a few CP and its off and running.

Make no mistake, I don't want the WK to be OP like it was in 7th edition, but I would love to see if be better, especially the sword variant. The sword should grant 2 attacks per base attack or something of that nature as it gives up shooting capabilities, and the stomp is generally better in every scenario due to weight of dice. The Suncannon should NOT have variable shots, or at the very least be 6 + D6. Also, the model really should come with a 6+++ stock from spirit stones, or the ability to at least purchase that buff.

I think the other opportunity cost here that's important is picking Iyanden over Alaitoc, which is better in almost every other way. You're using 2 detachments (or 1 with Supreme Command Detachment, which requires more added tax than just the single Spiritseer) to get these buffs, giving you less breathing room to run the superior Craftworld Attribute. And the opportunity cost of using all these buffs on the WK... comparing the two Knights as equals just feels like such a stilted comparison. Anyway, I should probably be clearer that I'm in violent agreement with all your points here lol.

WK is a great fluff unit but it is not competitive with the knight meta because it doesn't do nearly enough damage to matter, the barrier for entry is pretty points intensive as well to maintain that knight. Having run my knight in a few games i love it, but i know that there are much better options, fire prisms, or the exalted almighty dark reapers or dakka wraithlord...