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I know there are a couple of similar threads, but I wanted to focus on a particular situation and get some addition feedback for my sons' VVs

We will be converting 10 MkIII Marines to be Vanguard Vets with jump packs.
5 will be UMs, 5 will be Salamanders
I'd like some help deciding on weapon loadout that are both cool and iconic, but also fairly useful in casual games

Here are their lists so far:


So if both lists are adding 5 Vanguard Vets, what loadouts would be best with the units they have?
I certainly think each unit should have 2 Storm Shields and think the Sgt should have either dual Lightning Claws or Hammer
But after that, I can't seem to nail down/distill the best loadout.

I kinda like the "Gunslinger" dual Plasma Pistol build for at least 1 model in each unit, but that dilutes the unit's Melee.
But this build might be good to support/distract from the Inceptors:
Sgt w TH/PP,
2 VV w SS/LC,
2 VV w 2 PP.
That build can drop in near the Inceptors, which will all be near the Jump Capt. That might take a bit of the heat off the Inceptors and help them eliminate threats

For the UMs I was thinking something like:
Sgt w/ dual LCs,
2 VV w TH/PP,
2 VV w SS/chain sword
But we've also talked about models with dual Chainswords and my UM son also likes the Gunslinger idea.
The UM VV squad might be the most difficult to do because he wants a fast Melee unit, but also likes the Gunslinger build

I've also thought about just doing 1 dual Pistol model in each unit just for RoC, but focus the rest of the unit on melee.
Thoughts?

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Remember that pistols can still be fired while in melee range. You'll lose some synergy with melee specific strategems or special rules, but you won't lose the firepower.

True, but in my experience, Pistols almost never get the special "can shoot in melee" ability because you either killed the unit you charged in your turn of their turn, or the enemy unit fell back.

I'm leaning a bit more into just 1 Gunslinger model for each unit, but then focusing on melee for the others.
What do you think about the Sgt with LC and the other 3 with Hammers or vice versa?
I don't want to have 1 unit with all THs or all LCs, because these are for 2 different people, who might both want a mix of the models.

I also kind want 3 SS in each unit. I know common philosophy is about 2 per 5, but I think having majority 3++ would really make these stand out in their lists.

Maybe I could pitch these 2 builds:
Sgt w dual LCs
1 Gunslinger
3 Vets w TH/SS

Sgt w TH/pistol
1 Gunslinger
3 Vets w LC/SS

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 Galef wrote:
True, but in my experience, Pistols almost never get the special "can shoot in melee" ability because you either killed the unit you charged in your turn of their turn, or the enemy unit fell back.

In both scenarios you still get your shots off.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Galef wrote:
True, but in my experience, Pistols almost never get the special "can shoot in melee" ability because you either killed the unit you charged in your turn or their turn, or the enemy unit fell back.

In both scenarios you still get your shots off.

Yes, but in both scenarios, being Pistol doesn't matter. If they were Plasma Guns, they'd still be able to shoot as normal.
That was my point. The special snowflake Pistol rule is largerly situational. The bonus of having Plasma Pistols here is just to have the shooting in the first place, no necessarily because you can shoot them, in the shooting phase, even if within 1" of an enemy.
And with FLY, this is made even more irrelevant.

But on topic, 1 Gunslinger model per unit is cool and can be useful, so we'll likely do that.
After that, I'm still torn on whether they should do a "Jack of all trade" unit with mixed weapons, or focus on either anti-Horde or anti-Vehicle/Monster

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1 Gunslinger model in one of the two units. Because it's an awesome concept.

I'd kit my VV based on what looked cool. There are some really nice looking SM weapons, and not a lot of chances to make them truly iconic. I know you're looking for tactical advice, but I'd suggest going with "It looks cool!".

I would suggest only 2 SS unless your meta is super saturated with AP. But you're already there. I'd like the idea of a chainsword chump too, basically the first to die to non-AP shots. That leaves only 2 CC weapons, though; one on Sarge and one other guy.

Certainly, we are going far more with what looks cool. But as an experienced player, I know how bad it feels to have your cool looking models not be very good when you start playing more competitively.
I'm trying to balance the two philosophies.

But that's also why I think each unit having 1 Gunslinger, 1 Sgt with either LCs or TH and the other 3 models having the opposite weapon as the Sgt could work.
It gets the cool models in there, each boy gets at least 1 model with LCs and TH and 1 gunslinger

I was also approaching this as giving each boy a unique unit (one mostly LCs, the other most THs) but it may be better to give them the same unit loadout.
For example:
Sgt w TH/pistol
1 gunslinger
1 vet w dual LCs
2 vets w LC/SS

It looks cool, has a Sgt that really stands out among the squad and can threaten bigger targets, but gives a focus towards units of 1W models
We'll have to assemble the bodies and jump packs and proxy a few build to see what they like.

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Ultimately you NEED the squad to have focus. Vanguard are better than Assault Marines, but they're still expensive at 16 points minimum.

When you kit them all over the place, they fail to do a single task, and then the unit falls back and you get shot a lot.

Don't be too turned off by budget options. Chainswords are still +1A, and Power Swords still change some matchups.

Remember that regardless of how you kit them, they're at best 5 3+ saves away from dying. Also, regardless of how you kit them, they still lock up a vehicle. Also, regardless of how you kit them, they still lose to decent-sized units or heavy CC threats.

Dual Chainswords is definitely the best way to go about it though. 16 points for that movement and 4 attacks is perfectly good.

With how cheap Plasma Pistols are, however, it could be interesting to do all Plasma Pistols and hold them for Deep Strike as screens are getting cleared. It isn't a lot of shots for the points though, so you'd really need to take advantage of getting off the charge and hopefully being able to Fly away and shoot again. Shrike, Asterion, and the Black Templars tactics ensure that for Vanilla Codex builds.

Unfortunately, we are pretty stuck with UM and Sallies, since those are the tactics my sons have picked. But overall, they like them. Rerolls have been great for the Sallies and the UM WL trait has been useful at getting back CPs and allowing the Hellblasters to avoid getting tarpitted.

They now want assaulting units and I think VVs fit the bill, but I just can't seem to get the right loadout that is both cool, but focused enough to be decent.
Maybe if they don't want hammers, we could just focus on lots of attacks via LCs and Chainswords? They seem to have enough multi-damage shooting.
But I suspect they'll want at least 1 hammer per unit, which would probably be best on the Sgt with a plasma pistol

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The Sergeant likely doesn't need to have a pistol.

Also don't forget that the Relic Blade probably got the most significant point decrease of any weapon I've seen. 3 attacks won't be too bad with it now.

If we go with Relic blade for the Sgts, then there likely isn't much need to even bits order any hammers. And since shields are easy to make from any shield bits, that actually might save us some $$$. We could then do this build:

Sgt w Relic Blade/SS
1 Gunslinger
1 dual LC
2 LC/SS

Yes, that puts 3 SS in the unit, but if the Sgt is going to be the LAST model alive, why not make him annoying to remove? SS are also super cheap and look cool, so why not?
And We do have 1 TH already, which I think would make more sense on the Salamander unit, both because the reroll chapter Tactic, but also hammers are a Vulkan thing

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My loadout tends to be based on which order I want them to die in. Because you have to nominate a model to take your save before you roll it, you can protect your thunder hammer marines from a lot of damage if you are vaguely lucky with rolls.


1. VV with Chainsword and Bolt pistol (first to die vs attacks with low or no AP... if I can use the cheapest dude for his 2+ in cover save, I will)
2. VV with Chainsword and Storm Shield (first to die vs attacks with high AP - second cheapest model)
3. VV with Plasma Pistol & Storm Shield
4. VVs (usually 2-4 of these) with dual Plasma Pistols for the "drop down and give me plasma death" effect
5. VV with Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield (bad loadout for 8th but can't rip his arm off without ruining the paint!)
6. VV Sergeant with Thunder Hammer & Chainsword for maximum attacks. You want this guy to die last.

Tend to deep strike in alongside a Captain with Jump Pack, Combi-plasma and a Power Fist for reroll 1's.

Thanx for all the feedback.

We've decided that since their lists have plenty of multi-damage shooting, that what they really need is a "blender" unit. So mostly LCs.
We also found a way to get a 6th model for each unit, so that gives them a bit more to play around with.

Here is the UM unit we are going with:
Sgt w Relic blade/SS
1 w dual LCs
2 w LC/SS
1 dual Plasma Gunslinger
1 dual Chainsword (first no AP casualty, cheapest and it looks cool)

The Salamander unit:
Sgt w SS/TH (because rerolls and it's very Salamandery)
1 w dual LCs
2 w LC/SS
1 dual Plasma Gunslinger
The last model he hasn't yet decided one yet. Either another Gunslinger, or dual Chainsword, or he might have the last 2 models be Chainsword/Plasma pistol

The best part is that for the Salamander, we'll be using Lizardmen Saurus shields to represent them using the hides of the drakes that live on Nocturne.

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The Salamander one might as well be another gunslinger to take advantage of the one reroll I guess. Salamanders are easily one of the weakest Chapter Tactics though.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The Salamander one might as well be another gunslinger to take advantage of the one reroll I guess.

And the Salamander list will indeed have a Jump Capt moving up to have the VVs and Plasma Inceptors drop in front of him and benefit from reroll 1s. So having more Plasma will certainly add tot he threat and help the Inceptors remove nearby threats to their existence. I've got plenty of PPs on order now, so I may pitch the double gunslingers, even though they are likely to be the first no AP casualties.

Salamanders are easily one of the weakest Chapter Tactics though.

This couldn't be farther from true in our games so far. Just about every unit has made good use of the Tactic and my UM son is quite jealous that he didn't pick Sallies.
But we are playing PLs and more casual to get them used to the rules and tactics, so take that for what it is.

Thanx again for the great feedback! It's really helped point us in the right direction

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 Galef wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The Salamander one might as well be another gunslinger to take advantage of the one reroll I guess.

And the Salamander list will indeed have a Jump Capt moving up to have the VVs and Plasma Inceptors drop in front of him and benefit from reroll 1s. So having more Plasma will certainly add tot he threat and help the Inceptors remove nearby threats to their existence. I've got plenty of PPs on order now, so I may pitch the double gunslingers, even though they are likely to be the first no AP casualties.

Salamanders are easily one of the weakest Chapter Tactics though.

This couldn't be farther from true in our games so far. Just about every unit has made good use of the Tactic and my UM son is quite jealous that he didn't pick Sallies.
But we are playing PLs and more casual to get them used to the rules and tactics, so take that for what it is.

Thanx again for the great feedback! It's really helped point us in the right direction

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See, you already planned to have the Captain nearby.

Salamanders just end up having too much redundancy for effects. It's already only one reroll, and once you have a buffing HQ you lose a lot of the effect. What should make them more independent doesn't actually do so.

That said, Destroyers abusing the Cherub + Helfire Strategem + Signum is always nice. It isn't nice enough to make Salamanders good but there ya go. I'd actually really recommend that if your kids want to go that Salamanders route.

We've found it very useful in saving CPs (we only use the BRB strats for now). Even with a Capt and Lt in range, we find ourselves rolling enough 2s that the CT really helps, and often pushes the damage output just up enough to make a difference.
With the VV Sgt having a TH, he'll be hitting on 4+, so if any 2s/3s get rolled, the CT will kicking, And it is unlikely that the Lt will be near, so the reroll to wound will matter too and save him having to use the Command reroll.
Plus, Salamanders look good with Hammers (or at least 1)

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You won't ever see me disagree with Thunder Hammers looking good.

If you forget the rule of cool, wondering myself what's the best load out for the sergeant..

thunder hammer, chainsword 33p, 3+1 attacks

power fist, plasma pistol 31p, 3 attacks, variable damage, put added punch in the drop..

dual LC 29p, 4 1dam ap-2 attacks.. reroll ones on wound.. maybe good for hordes?

Wonder if you shoudn't give the sergeant a storm shield, because you don't want to assign wounds on him anyway.. so best to give added punch.. I play BA, so I get +1 to wound on the charge.. but still those LC's are super cool, but atleast on paper they don't intrigue because they are so expensive for -2 ap 1d weapons 12p for a pair..

Any real experience from the battlefield?

I decided to give the Sgt SS for 2 reasons aside from RoC:
1) with a hammer or relic blade, you don't need another melee weapon, so you essentially have a free hand. You could do a pistol instead, but...
2) If the Sgt is the last model alive, don't you WANT him to be harder to remove? Having the (now super cheap) SS might make the difference between a lone Sgt dying or living just 1 more round to charge something important.

So for me, if you aren't going dual LCs, might as well take a SS.

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Remember that UM vanguard vets with JP get -1 to hit in their shooting phase when they fallback, because their chapter tactic says so. Dont want to give them plasma pistols, only melee weapons.

This is what i would run as salamanders :



The ability to re-roll one hit roll makes it pretty safe to overcharge one or two plasma pistols, also helps the sarge with his PF in melee. SS help against high AP weapons.

 p5freak wrote:
Remember that UM vanguard vets with JP get -1 to hit in their shooting phase when they fallback, because their chapter tactic says so. Dont want to give them plasma pistols, only melee weapons.

This is what i would run as salamanders :

Spoiler:

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [8 PL, 113pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

**Chapter Selection**: Salamanders

+ Elites +

Vanguard Veteran Squad [8 PL, 123pts]: Jump Pack
. Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Storm shield
. Space Marine Veteran: Chainsword, Storm shield
. Space Marine Veteran: Plasma pistol, Chainsword
. Space Marine Veteran: Plasma pistol, Chainsword
. Veteran Sergeant: Plasma pistol, Power fist

++ Total: [8 PL, 123pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

The ability to re-roll one hit roll makes it pretty safe to overcharge one or two plasma pistols, also helps the sarge with his PF in melee. SS help against high AP weapons.

I can't help but feel that the build you suggest is so close to a regular Assault squad, that the only reason to make them VVs is for the SS.
I feel that more models need actual melee weapons (bc chainswords are barely that)
We also play PLs most of the time, so why not load up on LCs?
The only reason we're putting chainswords in the unit at all is for coolness and when we do eventually use points

 Galef wrote:
I can't help but feel that the build you suggest is so close to a regular Assault squad, that the only reason to make them VVs is for the SS.
I feel that more models need actual melee weapons (bc chainswords are barely that)
We also play PLs most of the time, so why not load up on LCs?
The only reason we're putting chainswords in the unit at all is for coolness and when we do eventually use points

I wonder you didnt complain about the -1 to hit when UM JP VVs fall back, because all other SM JP VVs dont get that -1 to hit. Anyway, you are right, my loadout is pretty close to assault marines, which is a coincidence. Why do you want to bother with melee weapons ? A plasma pistol is only 5 pts, and much better than any melee weapon, because it allows you to attack from 12", not from 1". There is no charge roll needed (which has a good change to fail) to do damage. If you add a basic captain you could go with 10 plasma pistols on the VVs, deepstrike, shoot from 12" away, overcharge pretty safely, and do a lot of damage.

Just a quick thought.
You seem to be keen on the LC/SS combo. I’m not sure whether that’s just for aesthetics, but IMO it’s one of the worst possible options. I don’t know power level, but if you ever do intend to play in points, it’s really inefficient. A PS/SS combo is much better. Or twin LCs. The +1 attack is one of the best things about LCs.

I actually have had some success with SS/Plasma pistol on some of them. Kinda like the SWAT VV.

 p5freak wrote:
Why do you want to bother with melee weapons ?

Because my son wants an Assault unit with melee weapons. If he just wanted a unit with Fly and more shooting, we'd get him Inceptors.

 superwill wrote:
Just a quick thought.
You seem to be keen on the LC/SS combo. I’m not sure whether that’s just for aesthetics, but IMO it’s one of the worst possible options. I don’t know power level, but if you ever do intend to play in points, it’s really inefficient. A PS/SS combo is much better. Or twin LCs. The +1 attack is one of the best things about LCs.

We do have 1 twin LC model. And yes, the melee weapon + SS is an aesthetics choice. I could give each unit 2 twin LC models, but then who gets the SS (which the units WILL have 3 of)?
Also, 2 dual LC models gives a total of 6Atks. But 1 dual LC and 2 models with only 1 each give a total of 7Atks. In both cases, it's 4 LCs per unit, but spreading those out gives more actual LC attacks.

___However, I could do the following___
Sgt w/ SS + either TH or Relic Blade
2 w 2 LCs
1 w 2 PP
2 w SS/Chainsword

My issue with that build is that the Chainsword models don't really contribute to the unit's punch and therefore will be the models to take the first saves. But if I lose them, the unit doesn't have a 3++ until the Sgt.

___If I instead do this___
Sgt w/ SS + either TH or Relic Blade
2 w 2 LCs
1 w 2 Chainswords
2 w PP/SS

That gives me a non-SS first model that is expendable, but we do not get a Gunslinger model at all.

___Alternatively, we could go more PP heavy and do this___
Sgt w/ SS + either TH or Relic Blade
2 w 2 LCs
1 w 2 PP
2 w PP/SS

This last loadout might be good at splitting the difference between 3 decent melee weapon wielding models and Plasma pistol models that can be allocated to first.
Yes this would mean the unit would lose the Plasma first, but the POINT of the unit is to retain a much MELEE for as long as possible.

-

I know I keep flip-flopping on this, but I keep getting ideas.

What do you think of this loadout?

Sgt w SS/TH (Salamander unit) or SS/Relic Blade (UM)
2 w 2 LCs
2 w SS/Power axe
1 w 2 Plasma pistol

This build gives me:
- 2 models with dual LCs, which is more optimized for those models,
- 2 models with SS and a cheap but effective Power weapon. So they are both useful, but slightly expendable if I need to take those 3++ saves.
- And, of course, 1 gunslinger for fun. The unit can drop in, fire the Pistols and if the unit needs to start taking any no-AP saves, the gunslinger can take them first as he is less useful in actual melee, which is the purpose of this unit.

I am also thinking of modeling the Axes in a Thor Stormbreaker style: Axe on one side, Hammer on the other. That way, if they someday what to take more Hammers, they are modeled as such

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I would never combine an expensive weapon with a SS. I would go with SB or chainsword. That way it doesnt hurt as much when you roll that 1 or 2 for the SS sv.