Breng77 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
TBH they need a retooling. Straight points drops were never going to do it.

GK have several problems shared by (IMO) Harlequins: they're a model line with limited options further limited by GW not being willing to get creative with any of their rules.

Look at Thousand Sons vs Grey Knights. Everything about Tsons is more functional: They have a more diverse roster with cheap chaff to support their elite troops. They have 18 potential psychic powers meaning even if you load the feth up on HQs everybody's doing SOMETHING. They have a variety of useful buffs meaning that even a normal unit like a Defiler or a Land Raider can feel impactful in a Tsons list (my last game I had a defiler I healed 4 times throughout the course of the game, my opponent HATED that thing by the end) and at the same time they feel incredibly distinct from normal CSM.

Grey Knights feel like nonfunctional Deathwatch. Their psychic power pool is impossibly shallow for a faction that pays for every SINGLE model to be a caster. After about 2 HQs casting, you're down to everyone just blandly trying to pitch a mortal wound. Their weapon lists are all slight variations on the same thing, both their special shooting weapons and their special melee weapons: All their shooting weapons are designed to be anti-elite (none of them being high enough strength or AP to threaten tanks and none high enough shots to kill infantry better than a storm bolter does) and all their melee weapons are mid-strength D3 damage force weapons with very minor stat variations.

This leads to the harlequin situation of "limited options" becoming "mono-options" because one choice always becomes the best choice as all weapons essentially directly compete against each other.

GK need more powers (I'd give them a second list accessible only to the "squad-level" GKs, with power effects that all scale by number of models casting, then I'd give their libbies access to Librarius in addition to the standard GK power list) and they need variation in their guns. Retool the Incinerator as a true anti-infantry weapon (assault 2d6 flamer with 10" range would be an interesting option IMO), leave the psilencer as-is and make the psycannon lean a little bit towards anti tank, probably anti-light tank with something akin to autocannon type statline.

You'd need to fix marine spells, too. They're pretty boring. Tzeentch has almost all universally useful spells to pull from. A couple stratagems can come down and they could use more of them. Regular smite for characters, too. Other than that? I think they'd be ok. GW's only other chance to make good is in March. If they don't do it then it won't be until a new codex.

A big mental barrier are force weapons in the cost of models. Strike Squad is 19. Marines are 13. Psychic is worth 1 or 2. So the weapon is 5 or 6 points, which is a discount from the usual costs. gak, they can even get paired falchions for no extra cost like you might pay for Lightning Claws and no sacrifice of the storm bolter. That *is* pretty good - if you presume marines are properly costed, anyway. Another hang up is paying for the force weapon even when swapping it out for a special weapon. 4 points for H6 S4 AP0 DD3 is clearly worth more than double a storm bolter, but is it worth 10 points? I think so (mathematically) as a Hurricane Bolter is RF6, but no D3 damage and is 10 points. It might feel weird, because you don't use D3 on S4 AP0 often.

The "problem" is no one wants to get marines into melee.

- Tech priests are a huge value now. The Defiler scenario you mentioned can be somewhat replicated by GK - tech priest getting no fail repairs and a spell, which would be grabbing a 3++ for a GMDK.
- Their flamers are pretty usable at current points.
- They pay barely more than others for the newly awesome psychic dreadoughts.
- Their support characters are much easier to fit in now.
- Interceptors are a bit cheaper. They're a pretty unique unit that can be on table, go anywhere, and then move 12 and charge the next turn.

The problem is the force weapons if you had the choice you would never pay 5 points per marine for a force weapon on the entire squad. Especially when they only have 1 attack. That is exactly what I was talking about, you end up paying 5-6 points for a force weapon, and 2 for a storm bolter and you have no option to not take one of those options. So you end up with a squad that die like marines but are 50% more expensive. Do they shoot better than marines? Well 5 GK is 105, the cost of 8 marines, so they put out 20 shots at 12" vs 16. So that is good but they die faster, and that adds up over the course of an army. IF you could drop the force weapon, or some of the force weapons at least, you would be much better off.

 grouchoben wrote:
A few tweaks would do it...

+1 base attack
A +1 to charge & advance rolls relic
Librarian discipline for Librarians and Voldus
Access to decent FW stuff: contemptors, leviathans, deredeos.
Characters get full fat smite
______
Done