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I finally realized one of the big issues I have with Kill Team's Morale Phase is the way Nerve checks penalties are accrued and the occasional bookkeeping/measuring to find the end result. I don't think the system works very well for fairly evenly split, in terms of points, Chaff/Elite teams such as: CSM/Cultists, DG/Poxwalker, TS/Tzaangor, Orks in a number of ways but specifically Ork/Grot, in principle Fire Warrior and Stealth Suit/Drone, and possibly Tyranid Elite/Chaff lists. While many of these factions are upper tier and might not have issue, I believe that is largely due to them not having close to 50/50 split of their points between their elite unit choices and their much cheaper chaff units when fielded. I have mostly experienced it with my CSM/Cultist lists where using the cultists as the meat shields they eventually cause my marines to cease to function the moment they gain a flesh wound.

I am starting to think Kill Team should include a meat shield sort of rule where removed chaff units only effect the Nerve check of other chaff units and not the more elite units. As in if I lose 4 cultists, my flesh wounded Chaos Space Marines doesn't suddenly suffer that -4 Nerve check penalty. Sure maybe the kill team is weaker with the loss of the cultists, but the reason they are there is to catch bullets. I just can't see my spiky marines being all that broken up by those casualties. I can't say for certain if this is an issue with all Elite/Chaff faction teams. I haven't seem TS team with lots of Tzaangors, Deathguard with tons of Pox Walkers, etc. I also don't know if some of the above factions have ways to prevent these climbing nerve test penalties beyond the usual group up bonus.

I also kinda think their should me a max limit to the number of removed models that count toward the Nerve check penalty as well as cap on the number of allies that can boost the Nerve check simply for speeding up the game, prevent very unbalanced modifier grouping and allow a better chance of lightly wounded units continuing to fight.

I also kinda think that Orks should have a faction wide ability called Mob Rule. Just like the old rule, as long as their are 11 models on the board, All ork models do not need to make Nerve checks. I can't see that being OP and could at least help out the suffering greenskins a little.

Finally, I kinda wanted to get other opinions on the Shaken effect. Personally, I find it a little too mean and would much rather it limit the Shaken unit to only one of the following action during the round: Move, Shoot or Fight. My experience has been by the time I suffer team wide shaken tests, I am pretty much losing already but would at least like to go down swinging rather than standing there with my unit's thumb in their mouth. I just don't see the need for a severe death spiral in a game that limits itself to 20 units and is usually over less than an hour. I would much rather the game have a way to pull yourself back from the brink despite some early pummelings.

Normally, I like the addition of morale in miniatures games (Dust Warfare/Battlefield, Deadzone, Bolt Action, Chain of Command, etc.), but Kill Team's is one I actively dislike. I think Kill Team's Morale phase can't be used for fire and maneuver tactics since you can't count occurring early game and many times once it happens if completely shuts down any resistance the bloodied team could muster save spending a CP here and there to keep a model in the fight thus basically being the unofficial end to the game anyways (or official one when breaking ends the game). I don't know how much of my experience is tinted through the lens of playing Chaos Space Marines though. So I wanted to get additional opinions from others on what they think of Kill Team's Morale Phase.

I have not played any lists that really mix elite units and chaff equally, so this is not something that really occurred to me. All of my teams are one way or the other. My Death Guard team usually takes one Poxwalker, but that's as close to this as I get. It certainly does provide a rather large incentive for not mixing MEQ and GEQ units in those factions where that is possible, such as CSM, which is pretty lame now that you've got me thinking about it.

The Servants of the Abyss faction kind of addresses this problem with their faction rule of rerolling failed nerve tests for any of the weaker models within 6" of a CSM model, what do you think of that rule?

 Luciferian wrote:
I have not played any lists that really mix elite units and chaff equally, so this is not something that really occurred to me. All of my teams are one way or the other. My Death Guard team usually takes one Poxwalker, but that's as close to this as I get. It certainly does provide a rather large incentive for not mixing MEQ and GEQ units in those factions where that is possible, such as CSM, which is pretty lame now that you've got me thinking about it.

The Servants of the Abyss faction kind of addresses this problem with their faction rule of rerolling failed nerve tests for any of the weaker models within 6" of a CSM model, what do you think of that rule?

Even though I have played some half-a-dozen games with my CSM, it didn't occur to me until I started trading out more marines for cultists and had marines just get fleshed wounded instead of removed. It finally occurred to me when I had my heavy bolter marine get flesh wounded while 4 of my cultists had been removed earlier in the game. Because his long range weapon and most of the my team being CQC he was at -5 to Nerve yet hadn't suffered to hit penalties due to Transhuman Physiology. That seemed down right odd to me.

I don't think the Servants of the Abyss faction ability would work for CSM in general. They are faction build on the backs their chaff units that would need something like that just function since it is so easy to remove GEQ. I also think they rely on grouping up to soak the removed model penalty. Besides, I am not worried about cultists shutting down, I expect them to or rather I expect them to die. That was what I was taking them for. It is the marines that are the ones suffering as cultists die pretty easy and in large numbers making it super easy to shut them down with barely a wound. Which should happen fairly frequently since marines are fairly tough. Besides a re-roll looking for a 1 is hardly going to do anything for the situation.

It never occurred to me before since I usually ran more marines than cultists and even then my marines were removed more often than flesh wounded.

I agree the morale rules could be better, but I think you are looking at things from a single side. A small and elite kill team is incredibly likely to break. Horde armies would be unstoppable without nerve rules, and bases on the results of nova hordes were running the show. Even with, they get a similar mob up effect by just blobbing(countered by multi shot weapons sure) and getting enough kills to force a break test or actually make nerve tests stick is hard.

I get that the super elite teams are easy to break but hard to shake(usually high LD) and that blobs don't break easy and don't care about a shaken here or there, while in between gets the worst of both worlds. It can hurt for sure when key models in a 50/50 army are shaken.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

I also kinda think their should me a max limit to the number of removed models that count toward the Nerve check penalty as well as cap on the number of allies that can boost the Nerve check simply for speeding up the game, prevent very unbalanced modifier grouping and allow a better chance of lightly wounded units continuing to fight.

So there is, in that an unmodified 1 always passes a nerve test. Also, a lot of models with LD 7+ won't shake easy- a CSM or LD7 model can't even be shaken unless 2 or more models are out of action/shaken, and then only on a 6. Likewise, "mobbing up" helps abate this issue.There are plenty of other ways to fight against this: A 1st level veteran specialist also flat ignores penalties to LD and nerve tests. This means that a LD6+ vet is never going to be shaken, no matter the odds. A 1st level medic can be shaken, but won't count as shaken for other units nerve checks. Tactical re roll allows you to re roll nerve tests. Level 1 Comms specialists can spend a CP to subtract 1 from nerve tests from all models on the board.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
I also kinda think that Orks should have a faction wide ability called Mob Rule. Just like the old rule, as long as their are 11 models on the board, All ork models do not need to make Nerve checks. I can't see that being OP and could at least help out the suffering greenskins a little.

I totally agree that they need some form of mob up. Even if they just say that orks can use the # of friendly ork models on the table as their LD value, max 10. Even if that was a 1CP strategm you could use at the start of the turn.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
Finally, I kinda wanted to get other opinions on the Shaken effect. Personally, I find it a little too mean and would much rather it limit the Shaken unit to only one of the following action during the round: Move, Shoot or Fight. My experience has been by the time I suffer team wide shaken tests, I am pretty much losing already but would at least like to go down swinging rather than standing there with my unit's thumb in their mouth. I just don't see the need for a severe death spiral in a game that limits itself to 20 units and is usually over less than an hour. I would much rather the game have a way to pull yourself back from the brink despite some early pummelings.

Shaken here and there is not the problem, the problem is that shaken is a nasty domino effect. For each model that is shaken, the subsequent models that take the test have an additional -1 to the test. You can choose the order of models that test, so always have the models that will auto pass check first. Then check on order of the importance of the model balanced with their likeliness to pass. For example, a CSM and cultist is flesh wounded in a kill team with one model out of action. In this instance, the CSM cannot fail the check, as even rolling a 6 will only result in a 7 and they pass. The cultist has LD 5, so a roll of 5+ will cause that model to shake, which means the CSM can now fail on a roll of a 6.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
I think Kill Team's Morale phase can't be used for fire and maneuver tactics since you can't count occurring early game and many times once it happens if completely shuts down any resistance the bloodied team could muster save spending a CP here and there to keep a model in the fight thus basically being the unofficial end to the game anyways (or official one when breaking ends the game).

I agree here too, that a few failed shaken checks is basically a death sentence, which gives the game some very rocket tag level play, and those six turns become insanely lethal. At turn 3-4 when these checks are really coming online and breaking is an issue, it basically calls the game a turn early. In a lot of missions breaking is losing, and it sucks in the ones it is not where you are basically screwed but the game continues. A lot of games are like that, so IDK what the best way to fix that is.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:
I don't know how much of my experience is tinted through the lens of playing Chaos Space Marines though. So I wanted to get additional opinions from others on what they think of Kill Team's Morale Phase.

I main harlies and dark eldar, moonlighting as a tau and 1Ksons player. I frequently play against IG(one blob, one scion spam), nids, GSC, admech, orks, and dark eldar. I have played against vanilla marines and deathwatch one time. In all the games I have played, only 1-2 games have really been won or lost on nerve checks.

That's the thing though. I am fine with the cultists being shaken by the loss of other cultists. It is the marines that are the ones suffering too much and it seems very out of character on top of it. It isn't like I am running a horde in Kill Team terms either. I am usually fielding a team of ten with about 5-6 marines and 4-5 cultists. That is two more bodies that what is in my friend's typical scout list. All it takes in the opponent to kill most those cultists which is easy to accomplish in 1-2 rounds given how many factions and players use frag-like weapons. Any flesh wounds I have on any isolated marine (usually my heavy bolter and plasma marines) and they are as good as dead anyways since the Nerve check penalty is so high.

I am not running a horde, I lose my cultists and I am usually making break tests or one model away from doing so. I get that the Morale rules aid in stopping hordes and grouping up helps prevent bad Nerve checks. But as a 10 man, mixed team the CSM faction can neither rely on grouping up power of horde (save my Berserker wannabes) nor the low Nerve penalties of an elite faction.

Sure, I can take a Veteran to help with that. I can even take an Icon of Vengeance for a +1 Leadership Aura (and sometimes I do take the icon but CSM gunners can't have icons). Neither of those help my CSM Gunners without falling even further behind in hitting power since I have to give up either my Heavy or my Sniper to do so. CSM don't have Medics. CSM don't have Comms. Additionally, I don't typically bother with a tactical Re-roll hoping for that lucky 17% chance, I go for the Insane Bravery tactic instead. I could also not take cultists, but then I am largely playing a lesser Space Marine list with 1 good Tactic (as long as I don't roll a 1 with it).

I get that the super elite teams are easy to break but hard to shake(usually high LD) and that blobs don't break easy and don't care about a shaken here or there, while in between gets the worst of both worlds. It can hurt for sure when key models in a 50/50 army are shaken.

Agreed - Hordes tend to be 'fine...fine....fine....kill team disintegrates..." since once they hit >50% injured and dead they lack the leadership to pass break tests reliably.

Elite kill teams tend to be fine since by the time you're risking breaking you've generally lost anyway, and flesh wound issues aren't a big deal with leadership 7+ (especially with And They Shall Know No Fear!)

'High-Low' mixes are where you get real morale issues for the elites for precisely the reason Saturmorn Carvili states - with a chaos marine or two 'embedded' in a cultist blob, then killing 4-5 of the cultists first means that even a flesh wound 'mission kills' the marine.

I don't actually mind the morale rules. But then I generally don't have to deal with them (Tyranids - since the warrior is my leader as long as it's alive we're all good and as soon as it goes down I'm buggered anyway).

I will agree that the Heretic Astartes kill team gets boned by them the most. It's why the most effective ones I see tend to reverse what seems like the sensible '40k' plan - the astartes up front as cheap chainsword-wielding nutbars and zealot aspiring champions, with cheap flamer gunners in support, with a shotgun-wielding cult champion having a crafty smoke out of line of sight somewhere on the back board edge.

I think that's an issue more with the specific kill-team, and I'd be tempted to 'fix' it specifically - a 1CP tactic that says "CHAOS SPACE MARINE models in your kill team only count other CHAOS SPACE MARINE models for the purposes of bonuses and penalties to nerve checks."

Call it "expendable minions" or something. After all, an aspiring champion feeling braver because Feculant Jeff, the Inept Unwashed Cultist happens to be nearby feels odd too...

I think the designers over corrected the 'horde' issue in Kill Team. I mean, I can definitely see it could be some trouble as a few factions can easily field 20 models with a 100 points, while other factions can't field more than 5. However, in play I have been too concerned with a horde kill team most of the time. In campaign/tournament play it is a one-trick pony as your roster and list are basically the same thing. And I think only a few factions and/or missions become incredibly difficult to face a horde kill team. I don't know for sure though. I don't really like playing horde lists as they are cumbersome, and like you said, just fall to pieces. I also don't have opponents that play hordes either. In fact, I find it interesting that most of my opponents don't really know the finer points of Morale (like Insane Bravery) because it just isn't an issue for them like it has been for a couple of game for me.

I am pretty sure if GW fixes this particular CSM issue, it will be something similar to your Tactic suggestion. Probably 2 CPs though to cover the Chaos Tax (I am kidding... probably). I don't really like that as a fix, but considering I am saving a CP for Insane Bravery anyways, it isn't like I haven't already have a plan in place to have the Command Point ready.

Just to say one of the reasons the CSMs have survived so long is by running. Once the chaff is blown away they are next and they have no incentive to die. indeed less incentive considering they knows what happens to them when they do.

The_Real_Chris wrote:
Just to say one of the reasons the CSMs have survived so long is by running. Once the chaff is blown away they are next and they have no incentive to die. indeed less incentive considering they knows what happens to them when they do.

That would make a little bit of sense if Shaken didn't prevent even Move actions or say an all Chaos Space Marine team is possible. Let me put it this way: If you suffered a -1 to your Nerve for every 4-5 points of the unit (not counting weapons/wargear) removed from the board, how well would your team do? One removed Deathwatch/Grey Knight/Intercessor marine would be a -3 to -4 which is close to what CSM face losing that many points in cultists. Even, And They Shall Know No Fear is going to have a hard time soaking that penalty. Now there is the fact that cultists are separate units and can be harder to kill because of that but usually not since they are so squishy. There is also the fact that group up bonuses exist, but that also allows multi-hit weapons to remove more in a single go. I am not saying Kill Team should base the Nerve penalty on points, just using it as an example to point out what is happening with hybrid Cultist/CSM teams. Few kill teams really even need to worry about the Morale phase at all, I just find it very odd that the marine element of CSM can be one of them as much as they are currently given how the rules work. Again, it makes complete sense for the cultists themselves as the rules make a okay counter-balance to 4:1 match ups that are completely possible in Kill Team.

Heretic Astartes also get a much bigger range in capability - you can try and do a 'high-low' mix with marines but the gap is much narrower between intercessors and scouts than between chaos marine and cultists...

At 4 cultists OOA, a CSM with a flesh wound has a 50% shot of not being shaken.

For 1cp it can auto pass.

For 1cp, you could tactical re-roll for a 75% chance overall of not being shaken.

If they are within 6" of an Icon of Vengeance, their chances of not being shaken are 67%. 89% with a re-roll.

If they're within 2"of a friendly (cultist, say) then you're looking at 83%, or 97% with a re-roll.

I'm not saying your key point is without merit, but mixed horde/elite teams have to play with the knowledge that they must more carefully manage their morale, and there are plenty of tools for them to do so. Space Marines are pretty hard to flesh wound in the first place. And there are higher odds that they'll be taken OOA by the attack that took them to 0 wounds than shaken as a result of it.

I think the main issue is that Heretic Astartes don't have a lot going for them. Hopefully they'll get a bit of a rebalance in a future update.

Check my math here but isn't it -4 for the removed cultists, -1 for the flesh wound (Transhuman Physiology only works for hitting) for a total of -5. Chaos Space Marine Gunners have a base Leadership of 7 and cannot carry Icons. So 7 minus 5 means Nerve checks of 1 and 2 are passing, 33% chance. And I don't know about you, but my heavy bolter marine is positioned in the back by themselves. The only backfield marine I have is my plasmagun marine covering another firing lane well away from the heavy bolter.

I am well aware of the Tactics to allow passing Nerve checks because I play Heretic Astartes. This isn't an issue for my chainsword marines as they often are grouped up a little bit and occasionally have the Icon of Vengeance. I play Black Legion in regular 40k so the Kill Team Leadership score seem off to me without that icon.

After it happening the first time, I don't get caught with this Morale issue anymore. Or rather, I gave up playing Heretic Astartes in Kill Team. I didn't mind having a tough go at it so long as I could play Chaos Space Marines as Chaos. But having my wounded marines completely shut down because a bunch of meat shields died was a bridge too far for me.

As mentioned, I don't expect GW to fix this outside a Tactic as previously described. All I can hope for is the designers are nice enough to make it not cost 2 CP. Given that the more I play, the more it seems that the Chaos Tax is a real thing, I kinda doubt it.