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With GW falling right back into the trap of 7th edition where you need 16 books, 30 FAQs, 12 White Dwarfs and Limited Edition Novels to be able to play the game, I was wondering if anyone has compiled a list of supplemental materials that aren't the Rulebooks (including CA and Campaign books like Vigilus), Indexes (GW and FW) or Codexes.

By supplemental I mean stuff like the Crimson Fists White Dwarf article, or the Emperor's Spears chapter tactic datacard included with their Limited Edition Novel.

Ah, that fallacy again. You don’t require your hyperbolic list of things to play. You only need the relevant stuff to make your army function. I’m not saying the rules are concise but when you start off a thread with a lie, well...

You know as a counter argument someone could say you dont need to eat or drink either, you can even stop breathing if you want.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
With GW falling right back into the trap of 7th edition where you need 16 books, 30 FAQs, 12 White Dwarfs and Limited Edition Novels to be able to play the game, I was wondering if anyone has compiled a list of supplemental materials that aren't the Rulebooks (including CA and Campaign books like Vigilus), Indexes (GW and FW) or Codexes.

By supplemental I mean stuff like the Crimson Fists White Dwarf article, or the Emperor's Spears chapter tactic datacard included with their Limited Edition Novel.

You forgot to list web pages on Warhammer Community that include beta rules.

It's not required to have all these things to play. It's required to know where to locate the proper set of rules for the army you are playing. And that can be confusing for a new player.

Karol wrote:
You know as a counter argument someone could say you dont need to eat or drink either, you can even stop breathing if you want.

That isn't a direct comparison. You need all of those things to live. You don't need to eat finest caviar canapes and drink champagne to live though.

Likewise, you need some books to play your preferred army in a functional way. You don't need every book and every scrap of released rules to do that. It is nice to have all of it, sure, but not necessary at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 techsoldaten wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
With GW falling right back into the trap of 7th edition where you need 16 books, 30 FAQs, 12 White Dwarfs and Limited Edition Novels to be able to play the game, I was wondering if anyone has compiled a list of supplemental materials that aren't the Rulebooks (including CA and Campaign books like Vigilus), Indexes (GW and FW) or Codexes.

By supplemental I mean stuff like the Crimson Fists White Dwarf article, or the Emperor's Spears chapter tactic datacard included with their Limited Edition Novel.

You forgot to list web pages on Warhammer Community that include beta rules.

It's not required to have all these things to play. It's required to know where to locate the proper set of rules for the army you are playing. And that can be confusing for a new player.

I agree. I was wonderimg this the other day for Corsairs and Renegades and Heretics rules.

 Haighus wrote:

Karol wrote:
You know as a counter argument someone could say you dont need to eat or drink either, you can even stop breathing if you want.

That isn't a direct comparison. You need all of those things to live. You don't need to eat finest caviar canapes and drink champagne to live though.

Likewise, you need some books to play your preferred army in a functional way. You don't need every book and every scrap of released rules to do that. It is nice to have all of it, sure, but not necessary at all.
.

How do you prep for games then, if you dont know the rules of other armies? You would have to trust other people rule interpretations etc also there is a ton of armies that dont work with ally. Try playing GK or inquisition without ally. But even if you go mono, and your dex is good, and your native enough to trust others. You still need the CA, the codex , all the Faqs , the index to get the HQ gw did not put in to the codex. And then just the rules and faqs that have a strong affect on your army.

Karol wrote:
How do you prep for games then, if you dont know the rules of other armies? You would have to trust other people rule interpretations etc also there is a ton of armies that dont work with ally. Try playing GK or inquisition without ally. But even if you go mono, and your dex is good, and your native enough to trust others. You still need the CA, the codex , all the Faqs , the index to get the HQ gw did not put in to the codex. And then just the rules and faqs that have a strong affect on your army.

The best way to prep is to play against them.

It's entirely possible to watch battle reports, follow forums like Dakka, and read blogs to get a baseline for how other armies perform.

But it's totally unnecessary to possess someone else's Codex. Buy a copy if you like, but don't pretend it's necessary. Unless you play the army, you're not going to know the rules as well as your opponent.

We're nowhere near the situation in 7th, which often required a main Codex, a supplemental Codex, FAQs, WD articles and limited edition formations, often multiplied by the number of allied factions in your list.

Right now you can usually get by with a Codex, CA and the FAQs. Depending on the army you might need a WD article and you may also need a FW book too. Obviously the number of sources goes up if you have a soup army but just looking at all the games that were happening at my club last weekend, I think across all tables the most that was needed for any player was 2 Codices and an Index.

Yes, everyone also needs CA and the FAQs, but there's not really any way around requiring FAQs unless you want GW to never provide rules support and CA is only really needed during army construction. During the game itself the only reason to refer to CA is if you're using the missions from it. I'm sure there's a theoretical army out there that needs 9 different books and 2 WD articles to use but in practical terms the bloat in 8th edition is nothing like we saw in 7th. That could change as the edition grows and there are some signs GW is falling back into their old ways but as of right now it really isn't a problem.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:

 Haighus wrote:

Karol wrote:
You know as a counter argument someone could say you dont need to eat or drink either, you can even stop breathing if you want.

That isn't a direct comparison. You need all of those things to live. You don't need to eat finest caviar canapes and drink champagne to live though.

Likewise, you need some books to play your preferred army in a functional way. You don't need every book and every scrap of released rules to do that. It is nice to have all of it, sure, but not necessary at all.
.

How do you prep for games then, if you dont know the rules of other armies? You would have to trust other people rule interpretations etc also there is a ton of armies that dont work with ally. Try playing GK or inquisition without ally. But even if you go mono, and your dex is good, and your native enough to trust others. You still need the CA, the codex , all the Faqs , the index to get the HQ gw did not put in to the codex. And then just the rules and faqs that have a strong affect on your army.

If you don't trust the people you're playing against to be honest about the rules then the problem is not the rules system or number of sources, it's your opponents. You need to stop assuming every community is as toxic as yours seems to be. Besides, if you have a rules query during a game all the material you need to resolve it should be readily available: the relevant Codex/Index and the FAQ. You really don't need to study the minutiae of every potential opponent before every game. In fact, the best way to learn about your enemies is generally to play against them because quite often it's difficult to pick out the nuances of how an army works just by looking over its rules.

I nearly made a meme gif for my army at the LCO, but I just couldn’t be bothered… Would have been something like –

2 Days.
5 Games.
2000 Points.
#3Codices, 1 Index, 2 Supplements, 1 Rulebook, 45 Tactical Cards, 9 FAQs
And One Bad Back!

In all seriousness though, to have “everyone on hand” like you’re “meant to” I needed –
Custodes, Marines and Astra Militarum Codices.
Marines FW Index.
Vigilus and CA18.
Rulebook
FAQs for all of the above + Big FAQ1&2
Tactical cards for Custodes, Marines and Guard Stratagems + Orders etc (ease of use rather than required).

It was one heavy heavy backpack just for those “just in case” moments.

Kdash wrote:
I nearly made a meme gif for my army at the LCO, but I just couldn’t be bothered… Would have been something like –

2 Days.
5 Games.
2000 Points.
#3Codices, 1 Index, 2 Supplements, 1 Rulebook, 45 Tactical Cards, 9 FAQs
And One Bad Back!

In all seriousness though, to have “everyone on hand” like you’re “meant to” I needed –
Custodes, Marines and Astra Militarum Codices.
Marines FW Index.
Vigilus and CA18.
Rulebook
FAQs for all of the above + Big FAQ1&2
Tactical cards for Custodes, Marines and Guard Stratagems + Orders etc (ease of use rather than required).

It was one heavy heavy backpack just for those “just in case” moments.

Your list was a soupy as it gets so what were you expecting?

 Imateria wrote:

Kdash wrote:
I nearly made a meme gif for my army at the LCO, but I just couldn’t be bothered… Would have been something like –

2 Days.
5 Games.
2000 Points.
#3Codices, 1 Index, 2 Supplements, 1 Rulebook, 45 Tactical Cards, 9 FAQs
And One Bad Back!

In all seriousness though, to have “everyone on hand” like you’re “meant to” I needed –
Custodes, Marines and Astra Militarum Codices.
Marines FW Index.
Vigilus and CA18.
Rulebook
FAQs for all of the above + Big FAQ1&2
Tactical cards for Custodes, Marines and Guard Stratagems + Orders etc (ease of use rather than required).

It was one heavy heavy backpack just for those “just in case” moments.

Your list was a soupy as it gets so what were you expecting?

Oh I didn’t mind having all the stuff around, but, I shared that simply to show it as an example of what is “needed” in this streamlined edition of 40k.

For example, my pure Thousand Sons list needs the following –
1 Codex, 1 Index (if I run a FW model or 2), Rulebook, CA18 (maybe CA17 as well depending on missions), 6-7 FAQs and a pack of tactical cards. This will likely change with Vigilus book 2 getting added in (if it is as Chaos focused as we all expect it will be) and its subsequent FAQ.

So, the difference between a soupy list and a “pure” list isn’t that much. It’s still a lot of stuff to be carrying around and referencing.

Honestly this game isn't complex enough to require having most of the rules there. I have them on my phone if I absolutely need them, but its not something you need each time you play.

I do work on ways to make things easier for myself. I made a cheat sheet with all the weapons in my force. And all the model data in another table. I made relic cards and Warlord trait cards to allow me to customize better at the table.

Really with a minor bit of foresight the game is really easy.

Reemule wrote:
Honestly this game isn't complex enough to require having most of the rules there. I have them on my phone if I absolutely need them, but its not something you need each time you play.

I do work on ways to make things easier for myself. I made a cheat sheet with all the weapons in my force. And all the model data in another table. I made relic cards and Warlord trait cards to allow me to customize better at the table.

Really with a minor bit of foresight the game is really easy.

Oh, I agree that there are ways around having all that stuff with you, and buying an ipad and all the digital copies is one of them, but, in theory, you’re “meant” to have all that stuff with you in one official form or anything – especially at events. However, most people just try to get away with battlescribe these days (which doesn’t always have the correct wording in there).

I think there are two problems at the moment:
- It's becoming increasingly difficult to locate a rule. Sometimes I remember that a specific rule interaction was clarified by GW, but can't locate it quickly enough, just because it could be in so many different documents (main FAQ, one of the codex FAQs it refers to, an unrelated codex FAQ that has a ruling that applies to many things etc.). So I don't bother looking a rule up if I don't know exactly where it is, because it's not worth the time mid-game (I usually play with people who are okay to agree on something reasonable rather than waste 10 mins going through a bunch of stuff). And here I'm not even talking about FAQs that change over time, like the thing why fly in the charge phase which completely changed from one FAQ to the next. Sometimes I could be trying to locate a rule that doesn't exist anymore…
- New players (or players starting a new army) might not be aware of all the options out there. For instance someone starting a new SM army might not be aware of the Emperor's spear tactics. Buying the books and checking the relevant FAQs doesn't give you all the info you need anymore. You need to be aware that some WD/limited thing/WarCom article introduced additional rules that aren't listed anywhere. I think that's a shame. And with WD's new format, is going to be increasingly more common.

Codex and FaQ should be enough. FW index if you play sth. from there.
CA is only necessary for the mission.

I don't need to own the other indices to know that my lord with jump pack uses the same equipment as the lord that is in my codex.
There's also Battlescribe which solves most problems.

I do agree though that questions like the Fugaris helmet should be solved in an FaQ - and not on Facebook alone.

I don't understand it:

People were angry about not having FAQ's, and now they're angry about having FAQ's?


I think that I need:
BRB
Codex: IG
Chapter Approved 2018
Vigilus Defiant

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I don't understand it:

People were angry about not having FAQ's, and now they're angry about having FAQ's?


I think that I need:
BRB
Codex: IG
Chapter Approved 2018
Vigilus Defiant

We want GW to consolidate the rule changes. They are scattered all over the place right now and it's annoying to try and keep track of all the changes.

To play mono space marines and have all the rules for my army I need a codex, an index, a FW index, relevant FAQs for each book, the scattering of general FAQs about the rules, designer commentary, a white dwarf or two, Vigilus and CA from two separate years. That's a lot of sources just to play one army with all the options it is supposed to have and all the correct ways to use them.

My gaming group uses the BRB, Codices, and Battlescribe.

If someone happens to catch an FAQ / Rule Change / what-have-you we tell each other about it, and then do this thing where remember it and don't need to bring the rules everywhere. If we need to show each other something, we google it and then, you know, remember it.

We're pretty laid back about things these days, though. We still play to win, but we all have families, jobs, responsibilities. So we are most concerned about getting the game played, and if we're an FAQ or CA behind... oh well.

HoundsofDemos wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I don't understand it:

People were angry about not having FAQ's, and now they're angry about having FAQ's?


I think that I need:
BRB
Codex: IG
Chapter Approved 2018
Vigilus Defiant

We want GW to consolidate the rule changes. They are scattered all over the place right now and it's annoying to try and keep track of all the changes.

To play mono space marines and have all the rules for my army I need a codex, an index, a FW index, relevant FAQs for each book, the scattering of general FAQs about the rules, designer commentary, a white dwarf or two, Vigilus and CA from two separate years. That's a lot of sources just to play one army with all the options it is supposed to have and all the correct ways to use them.

On the other hand, if they consolidate the rules too much, most gamers will be buying rules they do not need (outside the competitive crowd who wish to study other armies). This raises the barrier to entry/maintenance of playing the game, and puts off casual players.

Most players are casual, or at least start that way.

On the other hand, widely distibuted products makes it harder to work out what you need for your army when you start. It is a difficult line to tread.

Personally, I think the best option is to have an online rules index, which is regularly updated. This would list the valid, up-to-date rules available to every faction, and where those rules could be found in their most up-to-date form. That would allow players to keep track of what information they need. The page could be in the same area as the FAQs online.

So, to ask again, is there a list anywhere or do I need to compile one myself?

 BaconCatBug wrote:
So, to ask again, is there a list anywhere or do I need to compile one myself?

You probably need to make one yourself.

GW should at least publish the current matched-play rules in a single location.

Note for the record I am happy that for the first time since I've started playing they are being much more proactive and actually fixing things that aren't working as they should (at least some of the time). I just wish they would have learned from 7th and not scattered shot those changes all over the place, including different forms of media.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
So, to ask again, is there a list anywhere or do I need to compile one myself?

Well volunteered, we look forward to seeing what you make!

 BaconCatBug wrote:
So, to ask again, is there a list anywhere or do I need to compile one myself?

Since you clearly already know the answer, what's the point in this question, and indeed the thread as a whole?

Godspeed, BCB. Please do better at compiling the list than you do at playing space marines.

Slipspace wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
So, to ask again, is there a list anywhere or do I need to compile one myself?

Since you clearly already know the answer, what's the point in this question, and indeed the thread as a whole?

Because I don't know the answer? The whole point of asking was to stop myself doing duplicate work.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
So, to ask again, is there a list anywhere or do I need to compile one myself?

Since you clearly already know the answer, what's the point in this question, and indeed the thread as a whole?

Because I don't know the answer? The whole point of asking was to stop myself doing duplicate work.

No there is no list, however we bestow upon thou the task to create such a list and will grant you the ceromonial title of felinis listicus if you fullfill said task!