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Made in us
Deadly Dire Avenger





Considering the rules for subfounding chapters choosing a chapter tactic, is it correct that detachments using a FW marine character like Tybros cannot choose to use the rules for Blood Angels, Dark Angels or Space Wolves? Furthermore can chapters like charcarodons choose only one of the chapter tactics available in codex space marines?
   
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Norn Queen






 son_of_osiris wrote:
Considering the rules for subfounding chapters choosing a chapter tactic, is it correct that detachments using a FW marine character like Tybros cannot choose to use the rules for Blood Angels, Dark Angels or Space Wolves? Furthermore can chapters like charcarodons choose only one of the chapter tactics available in codex space marines?
Actually, if you pick a FW character you cannot, RaW, benefit from any Chapter Tactic, because they do not have a legal keyword to make the detachment a Space Marines detachment, and even if you could RaW Chapter Tactics do not work on Successor Chapters, so it's a moot discussion anyway.

To fully explain the above two points:
1) The SM codex states:
Codex: Adeptus Astartes Space Marines, Page 194 wrote:In the rules described in this section we often refer to ‘Space Marines units’. This is shorthand for any ADEPTUS ASTARTES unit that has one of the following Faction keywords: <CHAPTER>, ULTRAMARINES, IMPERIAL FISTS, SALAMANDERS, WHITE SCARS, RAVEN GUARD, IRON HANDS, CRIMSON FISTS or BLACK TEMPLARS. A Space Marines Detachment is therefore one which only includes units with one of these keywords.
Codex: Adeptus Astartes Space Marines, Page 195 wrote:If your army is Battle-forged, all INFANTRY, BIKER and DREADNOUGHT units in a Space Marines Detachment gain a Chapter Tactic, so long as every unit in that Detachment is drawn from the same Chapter.
My own emphasis added in yellow. Now, take a Space Marine Character from the FW Index, say Tyberos the Red Wake. He has the Faction Keywords "IMPERIUM, ADEPTUS ASTARTES, CARCHARODONS". None of those keywords are on the list on page 194 of Codex: Adeptus Astartes Space Marines, thus any detachment with Tyberos the Red Wake in it cannot, by definition, be a Space Marines detachment. While you can choose CARCHARODONS to replace <CHAPTER>, Tyberos the Red Wake himself does not have <CHAPTER>.

2) Page 195 of Codex: Adeptus Astartes Space Marines lists the various Chapter Tactics. However, each Chapter Tactic has a locked in keyword, with no permission to change the keyword for successors as Stratagems do on page 196. Thus, if you pick NOVAMARINES as your <CHAPTER> and pick the Ultramarines Chapter Tactic, your NOVAMARINES now all have a rule saying "Add 1 to the Leadership characteristic of all ULTRAMARINES models with this tactic.", which means the rule doesn't benefit NOVAMARINES.

If you ignore that, well then anything goes since you're making House Rules anyway, so feel free to do whatever. The SM Codex says you must consult the background fluff to determine what Trait you should use (e.g. Raptors must use the Raven Guard trait).

Edit: Shadowspear has fixed the issue of Successor Chapter traits not working.

This message was edited 11 times. Last update was at 2019/05/05 18:31:29


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Stalwart Space Marine





You can choose any chapter tactic you want for the most part, you just can't use the warlord trait/relic of the chapter who's tactic you're using if you're not that chapter.

If you're using a chapter that already has a tactic (Ultramarines/etc) then you're locked into that one but you can take their WT/Relic so it balances out.

Personally I would say if you're doing Carcharodons your fluffiest option would probably be the Emperor's Spears or Black Templars tactics.
   
Made in us
Deadly Dire Avenger





To clarify, a detachment that’s Jason Tybros in it cannot use Blood Angels rules, correct?
   
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Norn Queen






 son_of_osiris wrote:
To clarify, a detachment that’s Jason Tybros in it cannot use Blood Angels rules, correct?
RaW, Correct. This is because he does not have the BLOOD ANGELS keyword, and the CARCHARODONS are not a successor chapter of the Blood Angels legion.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/01/28 02:55:00


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Made in us
Stalwart Space Marine





 son_of_osiris wrote:
To clarify, a detachment that’s Jason Tybros in it cannot use Blood Angels rules, correct?


Carcharodons technically are of an unknown parent chapter so yes you can say they're a blood angels successor and get access to red thirst/black thirst technically. But you'd have to use their restrictions on units and such. And only have access to a single (bad) relic.
   
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Norn Queen






 cole1114 wrote:
 son_of_osiris wrote:
To clarify, a detachment that’s Jason Tybros in it cannot use Blood Angels rules, correct?
Carcharodons technically are of an unknown parent chapter so yes you can say they're a blood angels successor and get access to red thirst/black thirst technically. But you'd have to use their restrictions on units and such. And only have access to a single (bad) relic.
They might be an Unknown Parent but the Fluff does not in any way suggest they are Blood Angels successors, and hints they are Raven Guard successors. Unlike Codex: Adeptus Astartes Space Marines, which states
Codex: Adeptus Astartes Space Marines, Page 195 wrote:If you are unsure of a Chapter’s founding Chapter, either consult the background sections of our books or choose a Tactic from the table that best describes its character and fighting style.
Codex: Adeptus Astartes Blood Angels has no generic permission for chapters of Unknown Origin.
Codex: Adeptus Astartes Blood Angels, Page 74 wrote:If a unit is drawn from a Blood Angels successor Chapter, simply substitute the ‘BLOOD ANGELS’ keyword on the datasheet with the name of your Blood Angels successor Chapter.
Therefore, RaW, a Chapter that has an Unknown Origin cannot use the rules in Codex: Adeptus Astartes Blood Angels.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/28 03:25:04


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Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
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Longtime Dakkanaut





 cole1114 wrote:
 son_of_osiris wrote:
To clarify, a detachment that’s Jason Tybros in it cannot use Blood Angels rules, correct?


Carcharodons technically are of an unknown parent chapter so yes you can say they're a blood angels successor and get access to red thirst/black thirst technically. But you'd have to use their restrictions on units and such. And only have access to a single (bad) relic.


In order to say they're a Blood Angels successor chapter you'd have to follow any rules that the Blood Angels codex gives for picking a successor Chapter. Regular Chapters of unknown origin are limited to the choices given in Codex: Space Marines, which does not include Blood Angels on their list.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/01/28 18:43:03


 
   
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Dark Angels Librarian with Book of Secrets





Cardiff

You can use any damn Marine Codex if you like, but can’t mix FW characters intended for use with Codex SM with Dark Angles, SW, etc. You’d have to go full counts-as and not use special characters from FW.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
 
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