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I have heaps to learn, and i could learn googling but i can get a quick specific answers here and i assume no matter how easy the question it could help others here.

competitive
ok 30 marines / 7 rhinos / 2 heldrakes / 1 nurgle the great unclean one.

I assume i need to add a librarian if that's even what its called.

Just tell me what ever you can.

Thanks heaps

Something to put in the rhinos? Maybe berserks would do

Lol yeah true, i guess i need more troops.

Edit - I'll get heaps of blood letters, at least we know 10 of those can more then likely fit in a rhino.

By competitive do you mean "can win a few games in a regular club/FLGS"? Or do you mean "could do well at a tournament"? If it's the former you might be able to get somewhere with what you have. If it's the latter you basically have nothing that would see play in a competitive Chaos army.

The problem is the basic CSM are just bad, and that's most of your models. The new Bolter rules helped them a bit, but nowhere near enough to push them into being a competitive choice. Heldrakes are really fragile and while Rhinos can be OK they're still very expensive for what they do. Most competitive Chaos lists at the moment seem to be an unholy union of Thousand Sons Sorcerers, cultists and often blobs of Plaguebearers. The actual number of guys in power armour is pretty tiny.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stormatious wrote:
Lol yeah true, i guess i need more troops.

Edit - I'll get heaps of blood letters, at least we know 10 of those can more then likely fit in a rhino.

Bloodletters can't go in Rhinos. Berzerkers can though.

I still like the plasma combi weapon exploding rhino idea

Charge up, fire both barrels with supercharged plasma from the 'gun, preferably at something that is -1 or more to hit, use a CP if necessary, try and explode the rhino to deploy all the berserkers ready to charge

The_Real_Chris wrote:
I still like the plasma combi weapon exploding rhino idea

Charge up, fire both barrels with supercharged plasma from the 'gun, preferably at something that is -1 or more to hit, use a CP if necessary, try and explode the rhino to deploy all the berserkers ready to charge

I wouldn't recommend this tactic, you roll a dice for each model leaving an exploding transport and on a one they are slain. Also you can't charge the unit after it leaves it so you will be sitting pretty for a turn of enemy shooting, whilst right in front of them.

Well, competitive means basically that you can combat the enemy at all threat ranges and have enough mobility to reach and defend objectives.
This requires firepower, speed, and staying power.

 Huron black heart wrote:

The_Real_Chris wrote:
I still like the plasma combi weapon exploding rhino idea

Charge up, fire both barrels with supercharged plasma from the 'gun, preferably at something that is -1 or more to hit, use a CP if necessary, try and explode the rhino to deploy all the berserkers ready to charge

I wouldn't recommend this tactic, you roll a dice for each model leaving an exploding transport and on a one they are slain. Also you can't charge the unit after it leaves it so you will be sitting pretty for a turn of enemy shooting, whilst right in front of them.

Sorry but where did you get the idea that the unit can't charge after it disembarks? The ENTIRE POINT of the Explody Rhino Thing is so the Berserkers can charge after the Rhino kills itself.

Slipspace wrote:
By competitive do you mean "can win a few games in a regular club/FLGS"? Or do you mean "could do well at a tournament"? If it's the former you might be able to get somewhere with what you have. If it's the latter you basically have nothing that would see play in a competitive Chaos army.

The problem is the basic CSM are just bad, and that's most of your models. The new Bolter rules helped them a bit, but nowhere near enough to push them into being a competitive choice. Heldrakes are really fragile and while Rhinos can be OK they're still very expensive for what they do. Most competitive Chaos lists at the moment seem to be an unholy union of Thousand Sons Sorcerers, cultists and often blobs of Plaguebearers. The actual number of guys in power armour is pretty tiny.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Stormatious wrote:
Lol yeah true, i guess i need more troops.

Edit - I'll get heaps of blood letters, at least we know 10 of those can more then likely fit in a rhino.

Bloodletters can't go in Rhinos. Berzerkers can though.

Well it depends on how i play them also right, i mean there is the tactic side of things righttt?, and i don't know if you're right about CSM being bad ( ill just assume you're wrong for moral ), and don't know what you think basic is with csm.

edit - The 10 blood letters thing is more of a joke, related to a thread i made a while ago claiming 10 csm can fit inside if they position them selves in a certain way lol.


2nd edit - Like does tactics not play much of a role or some thing?

When I say basic CSM are bad, I mean the regular Chaos Space Marines and units based on the same profile like Havocs. The Space Marine profile is overpriced at the moment and this tends to extend to the more esoteric unit options like Raptors, Bikers, Chosen and Terminators too. Tactics only gets you so far. It's true that a good player can overcome the deficiencies of their list through good play, but if you're playing an equally skilled player then the difference in power of the lists becomes a factor. If the game were well balanced any army would be viable but some are simply more viable than others at the moment.

To give you an example, you pay so much for a regular Chaos Space Marine with a bolter compared to, say, an Astra Militarum Infantry Squad guy that you'll really, really struggle to find any viable tactics that overcome that deficit in power level. It's not just a case of playing better than someone, it's playing so much better that you overcome their own skill level and the discrepancy in power between the two armies. That's why I asked what you meant by competitive. Among a group of players who want to put down lists that are balanced and not completely terrible, but aren't all top-level tournament meta lists, any army can potentially do well. You just need to be aware that there's always the chance someone in the group deliberately or unwittingly ends up playing a much more powerful list than everyone else.

I have to echo Slipspace. What do you mean "competitive"?


If you're trying to win tourneys, then I must say that I've never heard of a list like yours working this edition, ever. It's not a matter of "add more troops". Basic strategy for games are broken down into answering three questions;

#1 - How do I win?
#2 - How do I not lose?
#3 - How do I make it that my opponent doesn't win?

You, thankfully, have answered question #1. Your list here is trying to win by zooming to objectives and holding more of them than your opponent. However, I think your answer to question #2 is deeply flawed, and you don't have an answer to question #3. Your answer to #2 seems to be "have too many high-toughness units that they can't kill them all". Not sure if you're ever faced a high-end list, but such a list should have precisely zero trouble killing at least two of your Rhinos a turn, and can likely kill three or even four a turn. You are also using Heldrakes, presumably to tie things up in close combat so they can't shoot. However, all that's necessary to bungle that up is some smart positioning. Heldrakes have an, unfortunately, massive base. This means it's takes very little work to block off the space around your charge target, meaning they likely will fail to do so. Add to this that the counter-attack on them in close combat could very well kill them, and your Heldrakes barely last a moment. Extra unfortunately, let's say you charge something weak, like Guardsmen - you can't kill many of them, and if they just keep in combat with you, you can't both leave combat and charge something else the turn afterwards. Heldrakes, in my opinion, are just terrible at what they're seemingly intended to do.

Meanwhile, your opponent seems free to be able to move and engage your army as they see fit.



I think the strategy you are looking at using is deeply flawed for a tournament.


However, if your local meta is very, very weak, and you're just looking for something that can win a few games, then sure, anything's possible. I just wouldn't go dumping a bunch of cash on this plan if it's a new army.

 Yarium wrote:
I have to echo Slipspace. What do you mean "competitive"?


If you're trying to win tourneys, then I must say that I've never heard of a list like yours working this edition, ever. It's not a matter of "add more troops". Basic strategy for games are broken down into answering three questions;

#1 - How do I win?
#2 - How do I not lose?
#3 - How do I make it that my opponent doesn't win?

You, thankfully, have answered question #1. Your list here is trying to win by zooming to objectives and holding more of them than your opponent. However, I think your answer to question #2 is deeply flawed, and you don't have an answer to question #3. Your answer to #2 seems to be "have too many high-toughness units that they can't kill them all". Not sure if you're ever faced a high-end list, but such a list should have precisely zero trouble killing at least two of your Rhinos a turn, and can likely kill three or even four a turn. You are also using Heldrakes, presumably to tie things up in close combat so they can't shoot. However, all that's necessary to bungle that up is some smart positioning. Heldrakes have an, unfortunately, massive base. This means it's takes very little work to block off the space around your charge target, meaning they likely will fail to do so. Add to this that the counter-attack on them in close combat could very well kill them, and your Heldrakes barely last a moment. Extra unfortunately, let's say you charge something weak, like Guardsmen - you can't kill many of them, and if they just keep in combat with you, you can't both leave combat and charge something else the turn afterwards. Heldrakes, in my opinion, are just terrible at what they're seemingly intended to do.

Meanwhile, your opponent seems free to be able to move and engage your army as they see fit.



I think the strategy you are looking at using is deeply flawed for a tournament.


However, if your local meta is very, very weak, and you're just looking for something that can win a few games, then sure, anything's possible. I just wouldn't go dumping a bunch of cash on this plan if it's a new army.

I don't know why you think i would have answered you're questions before they were even asked. I literally don't know any thing regarding whats tough and what does what, im just asking to see if this can be qualifed as a comp army. My army is built on looks, looks that kill. lol

 Huron black heart wrote:
I wouldn't recommend this tactic, you roll a dice for each model leaving an exploding transport and on a one they are slain. Also you can't charge the unit after it leaves it so you will be sitting pretty for a turn of enemy shooting, whilst right in front of them.

It is not recommended but is meant to be a crazy berserker idea.

Note you are not disembarking due to a quirk in the rules.

 Stormatious wrote:


I don't know why you think i would have answered you're questions before they were even asked. I literally don't know any thing regarding whats tough and what does what, im just asking to see if this can be qualifed as a comp army. My army is built on looks, looks that kill. lol

I think they were probably extrapolating from your list of units. The points still stand, though. Those three questions are important ones for any army to answer and I agree that your current list of units fails quite badly at 2 and 3 in that list. That's why it's also important for us to understand what you mean when you say "competitive". The ability to succeed at points 1,2 and 3 above depends very heavily on the environment you play in.

Those are not questions that I'm asking you, those are generic questions that are tools to determine your strategy. Even when you're playing against someone else, when you look at their army, put yourself in their shoes and ask yourself those questions from their point of view. That can help you identify how to defeat their army.

If you asked this to see if it's a competitive army, I'd have to say the answer is a definite "no". But don't let that stop you from having fun with it! Competitive isn't the only game in town

The_Real_Chris wrote:
Note you are not disembarking due to a quirk in the rules.

This is not true in the slightest.

BRB Page 183 wrote:If a transport is destroyed, any units embarked within it immediately disembark (see below)...

However, it does not matter that they disembark, because disembarking does not prevent the unit from charging that turn.

BRB Page 183 wrote:Units that disembark can then act normally (move, shoot, charge, fight, etc.) during the remainder of their turn.

 Stormatious wrote:
I have heaps to learn, and i could learn googling but i can get a quick specific answers here and i assume no matter how easy the question it could help others here.

It appears you're already invested.

I'm sorry.

Had I reached you earlier I would have said to run away, quickly, especially if your goal is a competitive list. Chaos lists have brief moments of glory, and you have to find your sparks of joy in those, in their current state they are a terribly flawed army that is lacking a lot of functionality present in other armies.

That being said, things you should have:

Daemon Prince, at least 2, Wings/Talons/Warp Bolter.
Cultists, lots of them, at least 40.
Ahriman - he can be your 'counts as' Sorcerer, but you'll grow to want a TS battalion at some point anyways.
Obliterators - at least 2 squads. Paint them fairly generically.

My own personal stuff that I've picked up and really enjoy:
Storm Eagle Assault Gunships - I have 2, love them.
Khorne Lord of Skulls - I have 2, love them, people will bag on them, call them bad, who cares, they're immensely fun, especially when backed by a TS Battalion that is buffing the hell out of them. Also, Daemonforge.

Eventually you'll want Daemons, that's a whole other can of worms. Avoid Slaanesh like the plague, Khorne, Tzeentch are the most useful daemons in my opinion (they tend to be able to do their job well without a lot of specialized support units), but Nurgle daemons are pretty strong also, especially if you invest in the specialized support units for them.

The_Real_Chris wrote:

 Huron black heart wrote:
I wouldn't recommend this tactic, you roll a dice for each model leaving an exploding transport and on a one they are slain. Also you can't charge the unit after it leaves it so you will be sitting pretty for a turn of enemy shooting, whilst right in front of them.

It is not recommended but is meant to be a crazy berserker idea.

Note you are not disembarking due to a quirk in the rules.

Irrelevant are they disembarking or not as you can disembark and assault just fine. What this does get by though is you can't disembark after moving rhino so you are usually still inside the rhino. With this though you get suddenly out of rhino on your shooting phase and ergo ready to charge.

tneva82 wrote:
Irrelevant are they disembarking or not as you can disembark and assault just fine. What this does get by though is you can't disembark after moving rhino so you are usually still inside the rhino. With this though you get suddenly out of rhino on your shooting phase and ergo ready to charge.

Worth noting, this can also work against you. If your opponent surrounds the vehicle before destroying it they can wipe out the squad inside by denying you anywhere to deploy the embarked unit.

This is mainly intended for long range assault though so...Not many can outcharge bersekers from rhino surrounding the rhino in the process.