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Yes, this is one of those sad I am debating going away from background.
Here's the issue: White Scars chapter tactics are decent, but not great for an army that gets NO CC biker units (I have some index stuff but the vets on bikes cost is insane). Anyway, I buy a LOT of small units of 3 bikers in this army, as well as 5 man units of vanguards and some devs. It seems I would get far more use out of the Salamanders tactic.
To explain: White scars can fall back and charge. Good, No argument, but not great since it only helps a few units (mostly my characters)
Salamanders: Reroll a single to hit and to wound roll for each unit in the shoot and fight phase. Seems I will get massive use of this. Probably rerolling 10 or so hit and wound rolls in each phase.

Any thoughts? My group is a fluff group etc, but...just looking for anyone's ideas on effectiveness.

For thought my army (this is tentative and this is not tournament optimised, we play garagehammer)
My army seems good against hordes or anything volume of fire matters (bikes put out a lot of shooting)
Captain on bike, Champion on bike, ancient on bike, apothecary on bike (avariety of CC and shooty weapons
Librarian and LT with jump packs.
2 units of 10 vanguard vets with jump packs
15 bikers, 2 plasma guns, 2 grav guns, 1 combi grav gun
2 attack bikes, heavy bolters
2 dreads, 1 ironclad wrecker, 1 venerable lascannon/missile launcher
5 devs, 3 missile launchers.
3-6 units of scouts

I have 2 landspeeder storms but they are so completly overpriced I am leaving them out.
Yes, my heavy/AT is weak.

White scars CT benefits the following units:
All HQ units (since they are decent in melee) particularly the ones equipped with jetpacks or bikes.
Veterans on bikes.
Inceptors (a full squad is quite nasty when they deep strike in, shoot backfield units off objectives, then charge a vehicle).
Ironclad Dreadnoughts
Assault Termies (for the extra movement).


That's pretty much it, and why its a weak chapter trait. It doesn't help the troops at all and nobody takes full squads of Inceptors.

Now if you wanna take some white scars in a Vanguard detachment and run other marines in a different detachment you can come up with some decent combos.

Salamanders are honestly lame. The small amount of rerolls doesn't help a codex with several expensive units, and you're essentially forced into MSU which, while we typically do that, hurts your amount of rerolls the moment you start going larger.

Not to mention it's incredibly redundant with the HQ units we already run and the fact you can get a basic reroll to hit from a frickin Dread for a single CP.

Regarding White Scars, they're lame as well though. The bonus to advancing would be AWESOME if we had a single way to charge after doing so without requiring a Strategem to do it. You can create your own little Smashmaster when you pop that Strategem on a Biker Captain with The Shield Eternal and Thunder Hammer. Use the 6+++ and extra wound Warlord Trait of course.

Another unit to actually remember with White Scars is actually Aggressors. You're basically moving them around 10" which is good for a unit with a base movement of 5 in the first place. Then take advantage of Vanguard with dual Bolt Pistols so you can fall back, shoot, AND charge.

That's about it to be honest off the top of my head.

I disagree about salamanders being lame, they work best with small minimum squads each with special/heavy weapons. This allows you to get the most out of those rerolls that others spend cp to do.

However one of the 1st things everyone complained about with the current codex dropped was that it seemed the wrong groups got the wrong chapter traits.

If you want to make the most of a real white scars force running them as ultramarines makes the most sense. This allows your bikes to constantly fall back and still shoot (yes at -1 to hit but you can still do it). Bikes are now mobile gun platforms. They are fast and tough but they cant do much in cc, its not their thing. So to get the most from them ultramarines lets you not care about getting locked down in cc (and with ld 9 lets your 3 bike squad be completly immune to moral even if you put an attack bike into the squad)

All right, good ideas flowing here! And I appreciate it, just getting ideas outside your own methods helps.
I am running MSU massively with this army. I am also stuck with what I have (I'm not doing the new primaris stuff and not buying those models so those ideas although good and logical, out).
I am doing the 3-4 bikers and attack bike thing with special weapons so the one re-roll per unit will be used every shooting phase. I do not plan to go to larger units, as with this army there aren't any buffs I see needing larger units. (I also have the two squads of 10 jumpers to buff that way if needed, although combat squading them may be common).
The idea that the Salamanders reroll is redundant makes sense, but not the way i play. My captain will be forward in CC, and with bikers and their movement, turtling up around him really wastes a big part of my strength. Biker units should stay back to shoot (my group is using the new bolter rule) and my CC guys scalpel away the right units. So I do see a lot of use out of the rerolls. Not arguing it is the best trait, but I'm not a min-maxer, and tend to play very well on the table for my match ups. Movement is my key.

reroll of one miss AND one failed wound per unit in fight and shoot seems worth more than paying a CP to re-roll 1's around a dread. I probably wont have much clustered near him anyway (maybe devs near the venerable, but they have 3 missile launchers and +1 to one roll, so reroll 1's is rarely going to be better than reroll one miss). My other dread is a suicide charger who either sucks up firepower or crashes in and distracts.
Really appreciate the input!
In any case, my group isn't ITC most efficient units or go home style (I'm older, and learned to enjoy the game, not the winning a long time ago) so have some leeway to try this out.

Salamander CT is pretty good. I've been using them almost exclusively since the start of the edition (I've always been a Salamander player)

Some things to keep in mind:

Board control is your friend, your no longer tied down by auras so go and own the board as much as possible.

Be aggressive, the more times your fighting or shooting, the more times you'll benefit from chapter tactics.

Your maximum effectiveness from CT is around 2-3 high value shots per unit. Your likely to miss only one shot which can be saved by a re-roll.

Don't forget your krak grenades if your in range.

Don't use melee dreadnoughts, stick with ranged ven dreads if you can.

Stay away from heavy weapons for the most part, and pair combi-weapons from SGTs with their standard counterpart.

Salamanders are not for building static gunlines. If you want to do that, stick with UM or RG and have a chaptermaster LT combo nearby.

What are you talking about? Salamanders are the epitome of static gunline!

Something I like with Sallies is using Multi-Melta Devs with a single Lascannon, kept near Vulcan. Vulcan lets you reroll the hit and wounds from MM’s, so even on the move, you have a 75% chance to hit. The single Lascannon can use the CT to reroll the hit, and has that sweet long range.

I mean, that doesn’t help much with the Bike thing, but that’s what I like to do.

Have you considered using the new Crimson Fists rules instead? Their +1 to hit from being outnumbered Tactic combined with the WL trait that can make bikes objective secured (Stoic Defender) make a Biker army more viable, I think. MSU squads with Storm Bolter Sgts. will put out a lot of dakka at decent range, considering the Bolter Discipline beta rule, and the +1 to hit will benefit units on the move with Assault and Heavy type weapons.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
What are you talking about? Salamanders are the epitome of static gunline!

I played them like that at the beginning of the edition, and it was mediocre at best. Switching to a much more aggressive style has made them much more effective.
Maybe that's why you view the CT so poorly. If your standing still in a static formation, then of course a CM/LT is going to give you more bang for your buck with either the UM or RG CT. If your being aggressive and consistently attacking outside aura range the benefits of the Salamanders CT really comes into its own.

Sounding like a broken record now, but the Salamander CT really benefits aggressive board control.

I view the Chapter Tactic poorly because it IS poor.

Space Marines are a gunline army, whether you like it or not.

Opinion as fact, how refreshing!

Sallies are able to play a slow roll to centre, so more of a sluggish gun line. By keeping a handful of counter assault units, such as Dreadnoughts nearby, they can make a reasonable play to centrally clustered objectives.

I play 95% “End of game scoring” missions though, so slow rolling is a viable strategy. Certainly not the best thing ever, but it has game.

 greatbigtree wrote:
Opinion as fact, how refreshing!

Sallies are able to play a slow roll to centre, so more of a sluggish gun line. By keeping a handful of counter assault units, such as Dreadnoughts nearby, they can make a reasonable play to centrally clustered objectives.

I play 95% “End of game scoring” missions though, so slow rolling is a viable strategy. Certainly not the best thing ever, but it has game.

I play ITC, so being aggressive can net a lot of points by holding more objectives and getting map hold secondaries, if your doing end game scoring it may not be as beneficial. I also do not slowroll at all, its a race to get in the thick of it (most of the time).

Marines are more versatile than most people give them credit for. Been using them as a short-range skirmish force anchored by a knight for the past couple months. Think outside the box here and build an overall doctrine that your list will follow. Don't get stuck in the 'Marines can only gunline' mindset. It makes countering you very predictable.

More good points (some not exactly for my bike army...)
I happen to be a very good tactical player on the table, so mobility does matter, so static gunline isn't this army's style.

@Dumah (or anyone) You mentioned the Crimson Fists NEW trait and rules from White Dwarf? Sadly, don't have that. Is their a link for the GW webpage release?

I’m not trying to limit the ways Sallies can play, that’s just how I play them. Take my Vulkan-ball, walk to centre, spread from there, if viable. Works for me as a general strategy, and I actively place any objectives I can close to the centre of the board.