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I have just started collecting Tempestus Scions after wanting to do them from back when they first appeared as Kaskrin in the eye of terror campaign. As I read through the rules I felt very underwhelmed by their supposed spec-ops style elite trooper status or how it is represented in the rules at least.
So I got thinking about how to make them less of a glass cannon and more of the rapier that they are sold as in the fluff and noticed a couple of issues which I'll list and address with my own ideas.

1) Hot-shot lasfails: the main issue I have with these is simply their main strength of being drop troops is that they should arrive in a hail of shots clearing a landing zone/creating a hole in enemy lines. Currently from what I've seen is that they drop outside of rapid-fire range shoot and then hopefully survive till next turn to be completely to move the extra half inch needed to rapid-fire all the while being in rapid-fire range of most of their targets or charge range whichever your enemy prefers to annihilate them with.

My proposed change: change from rapid-fire 1 to assault 2, it encourages short ranged mobile play plus you can still benefit from "FRFSRF" once you're in that sweet 9" another benefit is that they can still advance and shoot albeit at -1 but it opens up the movement side of these shock-troops without massive penalties.

2) unit variety: their is currently 4 scion units in the game. Tempestor prime, Tempestus scions, Tempestus scion command squad and Taurox primes. this is awfully limited not the end of the world but could be improved for a more flexible playstyle without leaving the scions.

My proposed change: the current Tempestor prime statline is renamed Tempestor secundus and moved to elites, an improved statline Tempestor prime with +1 command and maybe and invun as the new commander of scion forces, this one gives us a new unit plus lets those playing with the three unit limit not be completely hampered above a certain points value.
Secondly what about Scion drop sentinels? like the elysian drop sentinels but piloted by a scion as a fast attack choice, this gives us a fast attack option plus some anti-tank options beyond the suicide squads and tauroxes.
Additionally an heavy support squad as a scion support team? maybe a new weapon a hot-shot long-las? as an option alongside volley guns and maybe missile launchers providing infantry portable heavy weapons not trapped inside our more mobile standard squads
Finally I thought about a unit based off crusader statlines with power mauls/axes instead of swords as a close combat breaching squad maybe carrying some form of demo charges or melta bombs for additional points (this one is merely an excuse for a cool unit)

Tell me what you think, I'm interested how other players perceive these changes.

Agreed, with most ideas (never fond of more melee stuff, but eh) Funnily enough when the Crusade of Fire RP-by-post was going, I came up with the Tempestor Secundus rank as well, to represent some sort of junior officer in a Scion battalion. There's a weapon called hellshot in Redemption Corps (an old Stormtrooper novel), they're sniper rifles chambered with autocannon rounds.

Edit: I'd also make Volley Gun assault 4, with a small price increase. Leave the heavy weapons to specialised heavy squads.

TBH the melee idea was more shield carrying troops so could be armed with shotguns or even hot-shot las-carbines something of that ilk.

I love that sniper concept, I wonder what the profile would look like.

You are absolutely right about volley guns, it would be nice to see mobile play encouraged for the storm-troopers

I like the Hellshot idea, could stat it like an autocannon (S7, AP-1, D2), but with a bit less range (36"?) and Heavy 1. Almost like its a recoilless rifle I suppose, gives them a little bit of anti-armor punch at a distance. Heavy Support option of 2/4/6 man teams with them could work.

One thing I'd like to see is their points not including the aerial drop ability, and that you can pay for separately - you're kind of penalized for running them on foot or in transports because you're paying for it whether you use it or not.

The Volley gun should be assault 4 or RF3, to allow them to stay mobile and effective.

HSVG should be assault weapons, the fact that they are heavy this edition is beyond stupid. It outright states in the scion section of the guard codex that scions don't take heavy weapons into battle... Even if they were assault 4, plasma guns would still be better per point so it's not like it would unbalance anything.

I think the biggest thing would be to make scions 8ppm and take away deepstrike. Allow the unit to buy the ability to deepstrike via a "grav chute" rule for 1-2ppm. That way there is a point to actually taking the taurox prime as a dedicated transport for foot scions. As it stands now, the cost for deepstriking is built into the scion's cost, and I feel like I am wasting points if I do not use it.

Having the tempestor prime lose his pistol when he takes a command rod is utterly stupid. Like any stormtrooper captain is going to go into battle without a gun.

The fact that hot-shot lasguns are out of rapidfire range when they deepstrike are an unintended consequence of taking earlier edition stats and moving them to 8th edition rules. Hot shot lasguns should be rapidfire 1 with a 20" range.

Hot shot laspistols are pointless on stormtroopers because of their 6" range... why? Because the stormtroopers have krak grenades. Throwing a krak grenade will always be a better decision than shooting a hotshot laspistol. Hotshot laspistols should have a 10" range to be considered even a remotely viable choice.

The pistols exist when you're in melee and fall back and stuff. It's not really something you're actively choosing to fight with.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The pistols exist when you're in melee and fall back and stuff. It's not really something you're actively choosing to fight with.

The situations where you would use the pistol in melee, or at any other time, are so few and far between, the only redeeming feature of the Hot-shot Laspistol is that it costs 0 points, which is exactly what its worth.

 Kcalehc wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The pistols exist when you're in melee and fall back and stuff. It's not really something you're actively choosing to fight with.

The situations where you would use the pistol in melee, or at any other time, are so few and far between, the only redeeming feature of the Hot-shot Laspistol is that it costs 0 points, which is exactly what its worth.

For the same reason, Bolt Pistols are free. It really isn't something you actively use outside maybe Vanguard.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
For the same reason, Bolt Pistols are free. It really isn't something you actively use outside maybe Vanguard.

There shouldn't be a model where throwing a grenade is ALWAYS better than shooting its gun. Even characters with bolt pistols shoot them between 6-12".

Just because it's free doesn't give it an excuse to be pointless.

I think the conversation on the usefulness of the pistols isn't entirely on point personally, they are a 0 point item that isn't readily available on many models and has little impact overall.

I agree volley-guns should be assault it helps with the playstyle.

I think the hell-shot should have a mechanic encouraging anti-vehicle such as:

48" heavy 1 str7 ap-1 d2 "when this weapon hits a model with the VEHICLE or MONSTER keyword change the damage to D3+1"

it gives the anti-material vibe for the rifle.

I couldn't agree more with the removal of deepstrike and price decrease I feel that GW are desperate for us to drop these guys in but that doesn't work when your guns don't work effectively from deep-strike or if you are doing a pure scion army

 Samuhell wrote:
...they are a 0 point item that isn't readily available on many models and has little impact overall.

Again... just because they are free doesn't give them an excuse to be pointless. We are talking about scion weapons aren't we?

 Samuhell wrote:
I couldn't agree more with the removal of deepstrike and price decrease I feel that GW are desperate for us to drop these guys in but that doesn't work when your guns don't work effectively from deep-strike or if you are doing a pure scion army

Making scion guns rapid fire 1 with a 20" range would eliminate the "deepstriking out of rapidfire range" issue, while still making the drop zone selection extremely important. 1" off your mark and your firepower is halved.

w1zard wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
For the same reason, Bolt Pistols are free. It really isn't something you actively use outside maybe Vanguard.

There shouldn't be a model where throwing a grenade is ALWAYS better than shooting its gun. Even characters with bolt pistols shoot them between 6-12".

Just because it's free doesn't give it an excuse to be pointless.

Not when those characters have the option to throw the grenade.

All grenade throws are going to be better than the basic pistols (Bolt, Las, HotShot Las, Shuriken, Slugga, etc.). I don't think increasing the range is necessary nor does it make sense. You would increase the range...and then what happens? Everyone still switches out for the Plasma Pistol anyway, and then you otherwise only fire them in melee.

Did scions fluff change at some point? last i recall they where specifically trained to deal with rogue space marines right?

w1zard wrote:
Again... just because they are free doesn't give them an excuse to be pointless. We are talking about scion weapons aren't we?

Making scion guns rapid fire 1 with a 20" range would eliminate the "deepstriking out of rapidfire range" issue, while still making the drop zone selection extremely important. 1" off your mark and your firepower is halved.

I can see your point but there is 4 models with access to this pistol and I made this thread more to make discussion over making scions a viable army to play. I'm not attacking you mate I'm just pointing out that reasonably when you're looking for an overhaul on stuff the focus has to be the main points not little things like this.

I'm not sure about upping it to 20" it's sort of weird for the multiples of 3 and or 6 system they seem to use for weapons, I'd personally rather see assault 2 than 20" rapid-fire weapons simply because it feels more thematic than the slowing down caused by trying to get everyone in that 1" band of rapid-fire every deepstrike, when we see much stronger armies getting a pass when it comes to their rules I think buyable deepstrike is more inline with having specialist troops known for their mobile infantry style being pushed to be played one specific way that isn't viable should you do a pure scion army

 Samuhell wrote:

w1zard wrote:
Again... just because they are free doesn't give them an excuse to be pointless. We are talking about scion weapons aren't we?

Making scion guns rapid fire 1 with a 20" range would eliminate the "deepstriking out of rapidfire range" issue, while still making the drop zone selection extremely important. 1" off your mark and your firepower is halved.

I can see your point but there is 4 models with access to this pistol and I made this thread more to make discussion over making scions a viable army to play. I'm not attacking you mate I'm just pointing out that reasonably when you're looking for an overhaul on stuff the focus has to be the main points not little things like this.

I'm not sure about upping it to 20" it's sort of weird for the multiples of 3 and or 6 system they seem to use for weapons, I'd personally rather see assault 2 than 20" rapid-fire weapons simply because it feels more thematic than the slowing down caused by trying to get everyone in that 1" band of rapid-fire every deepstrike, when we see much stronger armies getting a pass when it comes to their rules I think buyable deepstrike is more inline with having specialist troops known for their mobile infantry style being pushed to be played one specific way that isn't viable should you do a pure scion army

What about a Tau shotgun style changing profile?

 Desubot wrote:
What about a Tau shotgun style changing profile?

What for? the pistols or the rifles?

 Samuhell wrote:
I'm not sure about upping it to 20" it's sort of weird for the multiples of 3 and or 6 system they seem to use for weapons, I'd personally rather see assault 2 than 20" rapid-fire weapons simply because it feels more thematic than the slowing down caused by trying to get everyone in that 1" band of rapid-fire every deepstrike, when we see much stronger armies getting a pass when it comes to their rules I think buyable deepstrike is more inline with having specialist troops known for their mobile infantry style being pushed to be played one specific way that isn't viable should you do a pure scion army

The problem with assault 2 is that it is both potentially too OP and doesn't fit the lore.

Possibly too OP because it allows scions to fire full shots at anything within 20" and do it after advancing. They would already be good for their price at 8ppm with their current guns.

Secondly, from a purely lore perspective, hotshot lasguns are basically the same as regular lasguns, except with more powerful charge packs and better focusing lasers. It would make no sense for hotshot lasguns to be assault 2 while regular lasguns are rapidfire 1.

I think I would rather see rapidfire 1 at range 24" (same as lasguns) before assault 2 20" or even 18".

 Samuhell wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
What about a Tau shotgun style changing profile?

What for? the pistols or the rifles?

Oh sorry rifles.

as a way of incentive's getting in close. though at say 3, 2 at long, 4, 3 at mid, 5 ,4 at point blank rapid fire or assault might get way too strong. it may be fine as assault 1s alone, considering you would be wounding and killing more marines as you go up rather than focusing on rate of fire.

also it probably wont work well with pistols.

imho hot shots never made that much sense for me at st3. its the same lasgun just more penetration which makse no sense to me for a laser. if its going deeper then the laser should be more powerful aka more str. but thats my personal gripe

I think rapid fire 1 at 24" is plenty for scions. Put them at 8pts each and 2 pts for grav chutes. And put the pistols at 12" range.
I'd also just give all scions a laspistol for free, and tempestors can take a lasgun.
Lastly, primes get two orders and the rod gives you a third (but you keep the laspistol).

Or, the rod does something else entirely, like more command points or something.

As for new units, a drop sentinel and a long range gunner team could be neat. Longlas rifles and missile launchers would be cool but I would avoid heavy bolters and lascannons because they seem too bulky for storming things.

So, here's my take on a strictly Scions(which aren't anything like Kasrkin, who were Veterans wearing Carapace Armor with Hellguns and taking up a Troops slot instead of Elite but that's a whole other kettle of fish. ):

Regimental Doctrine has the following caveat added:

This unit can treats their Hotshot Lasguns as Assault 2 weapons if they Advanced this turn. When engaged in combat, their Hotshot Lasguns are treated as Pistols.

This specificity allows for units to actually act as (shock! horror!) 'assault' units in a very Guard manner: lots and lots of shots downrange as you desperately try not to die.

Scions themselves have the following note added:

Tempestors can also choose to retain a Hotshot Lasgun.

I'm going to hold off on commenting with regards to Hellshots until I get a chance to reread "Redemption Corps"(something about the "autocannon" bit is off if I remember right--I'm pretty sure it's just something that a lot of Guard players started comparing to stripped down autocannons for size and damage but they're actually energy weapons). Just know that yeah, I agree--that'd be a great thing for Scions to get as part of a 'fire support team' concept--or even just as part of a two Scion sniper team in HS or Elite.

Elite choice:
"Scion Forward Observer"--Master of Artillery, but done as a Scion with a Sniper Rifle and Vox-Caster. There's more to do conceptually here.
When purchased, they have to be equipped with:
-Priority Artillery Uplink(Middle of the road option; basically a single Basilisk shot a turn but they can't fire their weapon)
-Priority Fleet Uplink(Best option and most expensive: Orbital Strikes. The FO cannot have moved during the previous Movement phase or turn and they cannot fire their own weapon during this turn)
-Priority Air Cover Uplink(Cheapest option; basically a Valkyrie's Rocket Pods hitting a target)


Hotshot Volley Gun gets reworked to be the following profiles:
Rapid Fire 3(Stationary)
Assault 3(Mobile)

The idea being that when stationary, the operator can put more shots down range without having to worry about fiddling with things while when the operator is mobile they have to restrict their shots.

w1zard wrote:The problem with assault 2 is that it is both potentially too OP and doesn't fit the lore.

Possibly too OP because it allows scions to fire full shots at anything within 20" and do it after advancing. They would already be good for their price at 8ppm with their current guns.

Secondly, from a purely lore perspective, hotshot lasguns are basically the same as regular lasguns, except with more powerful charge packs and better focusing lasers. It would make no sense for hotshot lasguns to be assault 2 while regular lasguns are rapidfire 1.

I think I would rather see rapidfire 1 at range 24" (same as lasguns) before assault 2 20" or even 18".

I never meant 20" assault 2, I meant 18" assault 2. Anyway if you read any of the lore you are sort of right more powerful lasguns, however they are usually shown as having a high rof as well hence the assault 2 concept, I personally like the idea of 24" range rapidfire 1, at the end of the day I don't want an OP army personally but units that better represent the fluff and make sense from a game perspective. I thought the assault 2 concept was nice just to make them a bit different to everyone else's guns (bolters & lasguns) I can see it being quite powerful sure hence my willingness to discuss and relent to something like a range increase instead.

Desubot wrote:Oh sorry rifles.

as a way of incentive's getting in close. though at say 3, 2 at long, 4, 3 at mid, 5 ,4 at point blank rapid fire or assault might get way too strong. it may be fine as assault 1s alone, considering you would be wounding and killing more marines as you go up rather than focusing on rate of fire.

also it probably wont work well with pistols.

imho hot shots never made that much sense for me at st3. its the same lasgun just more penetration which makse no sense to me for a laser. if its going deeper then the laser should be more powerful aka more str. but thats my personal gripe

I agree why aren't we seeing more strength? I think GW haven't quite defined what strength and AP actually mean in their own minds. the changing range concept is cool but could be quite tricky considering their doctrine I think it would cause all manner of chaos.

Dandelion wrote:I think rapid fire 1 at 24" is plenty for scions. Put them at 8pts each and 2 pts for grav chutes. And put the pistols at 12" range.
I'd also just give all scions a laspistol for free, and tempestors can take a lasgun.
Lastly, primes get two orders and the rod gives you a third (but you keep the laspistol).

Or, the rod does something else entirely, like more command points or something.

As for new units, a drop sentinel and a long range gunner team could be neat. Longlas rifles and missile launchers would be cool but I would avoid heavy bolters and lascannons because they seem too bulky for storming things.

I also think that it would be best to avoid "heavy weapons" like Heavy bolter and Lascannons personally the support team would be limited as I said in my op to snipers, volley guns and missile launchers. Yeah the pistol idea works and giving tempestors guns as well (never made sense leaders basically stood around doing nothing for a good portion of the game)

Kanluwen wrote:So, here's my take on a strictly Scions(which aren't anything like Kasrkin, who were Veterans wearing Carapace Armor with Hellguns and taking up a Troops slot instead of Elite but that's a whole other kettle of fish. ):

Regimental Doctrine has the following caveat added:

This unit can treats their Hotshot Lasguns as Assault 2 weapons if they Advanced this turn. When engaged in combat, their Hotshot Lasguns are treated as Pistols.

This specificity allows for units to actually act as (shock! horror!) 'assault' units in a very Guard manner: lots and lots of shots downrange as you desperately try not to die.

Scions themselves have the following note added:

Tempestors can also choose to retain a Hotshot Lasgun.

I'm going to hold off on commenting with regards to Hellshots until I get a chance to reread "Redemption Corps"(something about the "autocannon" bit is off if I remember right--I'm pretty sure it's just something that a lot of Guard players started comparing to stripped down autocannons for size and damage but they're actually energy weapons). Just know that yeah, I agree--that'd be a great thing for Scions to get as part of a 'fire support team' concept--or even just as part of a two Scion sniper team in HS or Elite.

Elite choice:
"Scion Forward Observer"--Master of Artillery, but done as a Scion with a Sniper Rifle and Vox-Caster. There's more to do conceptually here.
When purchased, they have to be equipped with:
-Priority Artillery Uplink(Middle of the road option; basically a single Basilisk shot a turn but they can't fire their weapon)
-Priority Fleet Uplink(Best option and most expensive: Orbital Strikes. The FO cannot have moved during the previous Movement phase or turn and they cannot fire their own weapon during this turn)
-Priority Air Cover Uplink(Cheapest option; basically a Valkyrie's Rocket Pods hitting a target)


Hotshot Volley Gun gets reworked to be the following profiles:
Rapid Fire 3(Stationary)
Assault 3(Mobile)

The idea being that when stationary, the operator can put more shots down range without having to worry about fiddling with things while when the operator is mobile they have to restrict their shots.

I take the whole scion/kaskrin thing as bit odd they are essentially the same being elite commandos doing the whole "stormtrooper" role but anyway thats off topic but I would like some decent reading material about the two.

I like the doctrine addition makes them mean up close and personal, again as I said earlier in this reply I like tempestors having rifles fits the aesthetic better.

I have no idea about the Hellshot just sounded cool bit like a modern anti-material rifle but clarified lore is always welcome.

the forward observer guy is cool I like it could he be heavy instead though? just so we have an option for each battlefield role really plus maybe a camo cloak so he's a little sturdier but I love were you are going.

Volley guns sound scary setup like that, but again I like it though alongside their doctrine these could become almost auto-include also how would tauroxes work with them?

I love that people are interested and joining in. I thought I'd be alone in this forum

I really love Scions. Not stormtroopers or Kasrkin. I’m newer to 40K, so this is what I have grown to.

The way I imagine Scions is as a plunging dagger. I feel that giving them things like drop sentinels and heavy weapons teams would change Scions too much and make Scions the non-FW fix for somebody that wants to play Elysians.

I do agree with some of the points here, like making the volley gun an assault weapon and adding the Canna Militarum as an upgrade to a Tempestor Prime, not replacing his sidearm. That is just silly.

But, ultimately, I personally don’t like the idea of expanding the Scion model range or anything past what has the Militarum Tempestus keyword and the Advisors and Auxillia list. I don’t feel this is an army in which it is appropriate to have a heavy support option. I could maybe justify adding some form of Drill Abbot, which would maybe be a better version of a Missionary Priest that could only be taken in Militarum Tempestus detachments. I would also be fine with an upgrade to Valkyries, like “Schola Trained” or something which improves ballistic skill.

In the past, weren’t Taurox Primes able to be taken as Fast Attacks? I feel like I heard that somewhere.

On the range of hot-shot lasguns, perhaps they could have a special rule which just lets them have the benefit of rapid fire on the turn you deepstrike them or deploy them from a Valkyrie. I feel this would be simpler than trying to convince GW to change stats.

 Samuhell wrote:

I take the whole scion/kaskrin thing as bit odd they are essentially the same being elite commandos doing the whole "stormtrooper" role but anyway thats off topic but I would like some decent reading material about the two.

"Gunheads", "Cadian Blood", and all of Justin D. Hill's book("Cadia Stands" and the forthcoming "Cadian Honour") and his short stories in the "Legends of the Dark Millenium: Astra Militarum" collection are where you want to look for Kasrkin info.

They're not the "elite commandos" thing...in fact, the Kasrkin Squad option from The Eye of Terror book waaaaaaay back when they first got introduced? They didn't have Deep Strike or Infiltrate. Same when they were the "Grenadiers" option from the Doctrines book--no DS or Infiltrate. They could take Chimeras and that was it.

They're trained to the same level as the Stormtroopers(now Scions), but where Stormtroopers were commonly used for suicide attacks or things like that...Kasrkin weren't. They supplied the bodyguards for the Cadian High Command, shock troops for the main assaults, and the anvil that enemy assaults would break upon.

I like the doctrine addition makes them mean up close and personal, again as I said earlier in this reply I like tempestors having rifles fits the aesthetic better.

I have no idea about the Hellshot just sounded cool bit like a modern anti-material rifle but clarified lore is always welcome.

It shows up in exactly one location("Redemption Corps") and hasn't shown up since. It blows a hole into an Ork/Genestealer Hybrid when a standard hellgun has trouble hurting it.

the forward observer guy is cool I like it could he be heavy instead though? just so we have an option for each battlefield role really plus maybe a camo cloak so he's a little sturdier but I love were you are going.

Generally, Heavy Support is for squads or things of that nature. One of the big issues surrounding Scions is that they used to be Elites and now are Troops--which kinda wonks up everything.

Volley guns sound scary setup like that, but again I like it though alongside their doctrine these could become almost auto-include also how would tauroxes work with them?

Same thing?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Apple Peel wrote:
I really love Scions. Not stormtroopers or Kasrkin. I’m newer to 40K, so this is what I have grown to.

The way I imagine Scions is as a plunging dagger. I feel that giving them things like drop sentinels and heavy weapons teams would change Scions too much and make Scions the non-FW fix for somebody that wants to play Elysians.

And yet it's exactly what the army actually needs. You have to remember that they are still part of the Guard and they're not just going to be the scalpel. They hold the line when they need to as well.

The equipment is what would make them work. Giving them new and different wargear would really showcase that it's Tempestus, not the Guard themselves.

But, ultimately, I personally don’t like the idea of expanding the Scion model range or anything past what has the Militarum Tempestus keyword and the Advisors and Auxillia list. I don’t feel this is an army in which it is appropriate to have a heavy support option. I could maybe justify adding some form of Drill Abbot, which would maybe be a better version of a Missionary Priest that could only be taken in Militarum Tempestus detachments. I would also be fine with an upgrade to Valkyries, like “Schola Trained” or something which improves ballistic skill.

Drill Abbots don't leave the Scholas unless the Scholas are destroyed.

If Valkyries get anything, it literally should just be a Valkyrie profile that says "Tempestus Valkyrie".

In the past, weren’t Taurox Primes able to be taken as Fast Attacks? I feel like I heard that somewhere.

The Scions book had them as FA options and Dedicated Transports for Scion Squads.

On the range of hot-shot lasguns, perhaps they could have a special rule which just lets them have the benefit of rapid fire on the turn you deepstrike them or deploy them from a Valkyrie. I feel this would be simpler than trying to convince GW to change stats.

You'd be surprised. Giving faction specific weapon rules actually seems to be a thing they're open to now.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Apple Peel wrote:
I really love Scions. Not stormtroopers or Kasrkin. I’m newer to 40K, so this is what I have grown to.

The way I imagine Scions is as a plunging dagger. I feel that giving them things like drop sentinels and heavy weapons teams would change Scions too much and make Scions the non-FW fix for somebody that wants to play Elysians.

And yet it's exactly what the army actually needs. You have to remember that they are still part of the Guard and they're not just going to be the scalpel. They hold the line when they need to as well.

The equipment is what would make them work. Giving them new and different wargear would really showcase that it's Tempestus, not the Guard themselves.

But, ultimately, I personally don’t like the idea of expanding the Scion model range or anything past what has the Militarum Tempestus keyword and the Advisors and Auxillia list. I don’t feel this is an army in which it is appropriate to have a heavy support option. I could maybe justify adding some form of Drill Abbot, which would maybe be a better version of a Missionary Priest that could only be taken in Militarum Tempestus detachments. I would also be fine with an upgrade to Valkyries, like “Schola Trained” or something which improves ballistic skill.

Drill Abbots don't leave the Scholas unless the Scholas are destroyed.

If Valkyries get anything, it literally should just be a Valkyrie profile that says "Tempestus Valkyrie".

In the past, weren’t Taurox Primes able to be taken as Fast Attacks? I feel like I heard that somewhere.

The Scions book had them as FA options and Dedicated Transports for Scion Squads.

On the range of hot-shot lasguns, perhaps they could have a special rule which just lets them have the benefit of rapid fire on the turn you deepstrike them or deploy them from a Valkyrie. I feel this would be simpler than trying to convince GW to change stats.

You'd be surprised. Giving faction specific weapon rules actually seems to be a thing they're open to now.

I guess that I'm really concerned about preserving the identity that Tempestus Scions have at the moment. As you said about giving Scions new and different wargear to show that it is the Tempestus, not the Guard. I would probably be more in favor of suggestions for additions to the Militarum Tempestus range if perhaps the suggestions were not the old "drop sentinels" and "drop heavy weapons teams" that get thrown around usually. I understand the Imperium isn't one to make lots of new tech all the time, but I'd like to see a bigger modification to existing tech than the drop sentinel.

If someone were to suggest some kind of Armored Fighting Vehicle as a Heavy support option, the fluff being that it is the baby of a Taurox Prime and a Leman Russ or a Salamander Scout/Command Vehicle, combining the speed and all-terrain mobility of the the Taurox Prime with the better armour and higher weapons capacity with said examples, I might be more on board.

 Apple Peel wrote:
I really love Scions. Not stormtroopers or Kasrkin. I’m newer to 40K, so this is what I have grown to.

Scions are stormtroopers. "Militarium Tempestus" literally means "Storm Troopers" in high gothic, GW just named them that way so they could copywrite it.

Kasrkin are different though. They are trained to the same standard as stormtroopers (and use the same equipment) but are explicitly under the command of the cadian regiments rather than parceled out to sector commands and inquisitors.

Also, not every mission that scions go on is a suicide mission, in fact I would argue that it would be extremely rare for scions to go on a suicide mission unless it was something that ABSOLUTELY 100% had to get done and that couldn't be trusted to less trained troops. You just spent all of those years and all of those resources training the perfect soldier, why waste that by expending his/her life uselessly? Exceedingly dangerous missions? Sure. Something that is 100% guaranteed suicide? Not unless absolutely necessary.

w1zard wrote:

 Apple Peel wrote:
I really love Scions. Not stormtroopers or Kasrkin. I’m newer to 40K, so this is what I have grown to.

Scions are stormtroopers. "Militarium Tempestus" literally means "Storm Troopers" in high gothic, GW just named them that way so they could copywrite it.

Kasrkin are different though. They are trained to the same standard as stormtroopers (and use the same equipment) but are explicitly under the command of the cadian regiments rather than parceled out to sector commands and inquisitors.

Also, not every mission that scions go on is a suicide mission, in fact I would argue that it would be extremely rare for scions to go on a suicide mission unless it was something that ABSOLUTELY 100% had to get done and that couldn't be trusted to less trained troops. You just spent all of those years and all of those resources training the perfect soldier, why waste that by expending his/her life uselessly? Exceedingly dangerous missions? Sure. Something that is 100% guaranteed suicide? Not unless absolutely necessary.

I was referencing the older stormtroopers that Scions have replaced. I believe there is a distinction.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
For the same reason, Bolt Pistols are free. It really isn't something you actively use outside maybe Vanguard.

Bolt pistols aren't free, not for Guard - they cost 1 point...

 Desubot wrote:

imho hot shots never made that much sense for me at st3. its the same lasgun just more penetration which makse no sense to me for a laser. if its going deeper then the laser should be more powerful aka more str. but thats my personal gripe

In 2E they were, essentially Lasguns with +1 str. In 3E they changed to be lasguns with AP5 instead. then at some point after that they dropped the range to 18".

Personally I feel that they should up the range back to 24" and keep them at RF1.

And Tempestors (and IG sergeants in general) should have access to the same basic weapon that their squad has!

 Kcalehc wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
For the same reason, Bolt Pistols are free. It really isn't something you actively use outside maybe Vanguard.

Bolt pistols aren't free, not for Guard - they cost 1 point...

 Desubot wrote:

imho hot shots never made that much sense for me at st3. its the same lasgun just more penetration which makse no sense to me for a laser. if its going deeper then the laser should be more powerful aka more str. but thats my personal gripe

In 2E they were, essentially Lasguns with +1 str. In 3E they changed to be lasguns with AP5 instead. then at some point after that they dropped the range to 18".

Personally I feel that they should up the range back to 24" and keep them at RF1.

And Tempestors (and IG sergeants in general) should have access to the same basic weapon that their squad has!

Well they're free in the same manner for Marines as Hot Shot Pistols are for Scions. Your point?

 Kcalehc wrote:
And Tempestors (and IG sergeants in general) should have access to the same basic weapon that their squad has!

Holy feth, this so much. Requiring sergeants to take las/bolt/plasma pistols is so unfluffy.

w1zard wrote:

 Kcalehc wrote:
And Tempestors (and IG sergeants in general) should have access to the same basic weapon that their squad has!

Holy feth, this so much. Requiring sergeants to take las/bolt/plasma pistols is so unfluffy.

Now this I definitely agree with. I know that Infantry Sergeants can at least take a Bolter to make up for it, but that they can't use a basic Lasgun is frickin silly. Is another one really going to make FRFSRF that much better?