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Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User





I am new to 40k, my codex has come out and the wolf priest is no longer able to have the storm bolter. I have been told that I can still use the index rules but I didn't know how long that would be applicable. In short is the index going to be acceptable for the long term or would it be better to build a wolf priest using a pistol instead?
   
Made in us
Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver




Sweden

Any answers to this would be pure speculation... We don't know.

Brutal, but kunning!  
   
Made in us
Locked in the Tower of Amareo




This is why I want the indices gone. For now, no one knows how long indices are valid.
   
Made in us
Glorious Grot Banna Wava




Let me check my crystal ball...
   
Made in us
Awesome Autarch





Dallas area, TX

I think it is safe to assume at least 1 more year considering each Index has something not yet updated in a Codex (I think).
I would doubt GW would make some Indexed invalidate and not others. It will be an all or none situation.
If GW intends to "invalidate" the Indexes, it will have to come as a blanket change removing the Designer's Commentary.

More likely what they will do is to make an updated Designers Commentary in Dec CA2019 to say that it only applies to Open/Narrative play.
Or rather, add a restriction that when using Matched Play, only Codex units/options are allowed.

It's not ideal, but I could totally see GW leaving Index options available for everything but Matched play until 9E (which isn't likely to come anytime soon)

-

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/06 18:01:57


   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





If it matters enough that you'd be upset if your loadout is illegal in the future, then magnetize.

Index options are currently legal.
   
Made in us
Blood Angel Neophyte Undergoing Surgeries



Scotland

Honestly, I hope never. From 5th, I still have Sanguinary Priests with weapon options, Librarians with combi weapons, land speeders with 2 heavy flamers, scout sergeants with combi-weapons none of which are in Codex: Blood Angels. For the most part, everything is costed fairly since you are only using a couple combinations of wargear not available normally, and paying codex and the latest points for it. Almost universally, the Index only Datasheets are no longer competitive due to over costing, like Jump pack support characters for BA, esp Techmarine. Potentially with the exception of Biker Vets, because though per model they are still expensive they can move 4 bolters into rapid fire range too well, at least among my group. besides some bikers, some jump packs for the Blood Angels characters, its really only a case of pistols/sergeant list, weapons on the Dreads, Razorback and Land Speeders, to be honest. Oh, and the FAQ lets one put the Company Veterans' veteran sergeant if its not the codex Space Marine, like BA or DA. Not sure how it affects Wolf Guard.

Pain is the illusion of the weak body. Fear is the illusion of a weak mind. 
   
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Sword-Bearing Inquisitorial Crusader




I don't know about Crystal Balls, but my magic 8 ball says,

"Ask Again Later."

Disclaimer - I am a Games Workshop Shareholder. 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut



NE Ohio, USA

Misfittoy wrote:
I am new to 40k, my codex has come out and the wolf priest is no longer able to have the storm bolter. I have been told that I can still use the index rules but I didn't know how long that would be applicable. In short is the index going to be acceptable for the long term or would it be better to build a wolf priest using a pistol instead?


Don't worry about the future, build your army using the rules currently available.
Worry about changes if/when they happen.
   
Made in us
Awesome Autarch





Dallas area, TX

I personally hope Index options are always available, because their are some really fun loadouts that would be lost. Twin-Autocannon Dread, Bike Librarians, literally all the optons for a Autarch, etc.

I suspect GW will just stop selling the Indexes at some point, but fail to remove/update/acknowledge the Designers Commentary. So Index options will remain in a limbo state until 9E.

-

   
Made in gb
Brainy Zoanthrope





Personally, unless there is something in the Index books that you really really want, I'd suggest sticking to the Codex books. At least then you'll know that whatever you bring to the table will be legal for play and people won't complain.


40K:
Genestealer Cult - 1287 pts.. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut







 BlackLobster wrote:
Personally, unless there is something in the Index books that you really really want, I'd suggest sticking to the Codex books. At least then you'll know that whatever you bring to the table will be legal for play and people won't complain.


On the other hand, if people complain about you fielding a storm bolter on a Wolf Priest, they're probably not people you want to be playing anyway

2019 Plog - Dysartes Twitches - 2019 Output

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Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
 
   
Made in us
Blood Angel Neophyte Undergoing Surgeries



Scotland

The bit I don't get is we've been feilding them this way for literally 20 years. I myself have been collecting for 15 years, and some of my first models were characters wielding things from the Ranged Weapons armoury list. I know models have come and gone in that time, bike sergeants with 2 lightning claws is one I had to promote into a biker company veteran, incidentally (command squad at the timr in 5th). This whole thing of kit options only is fallout from the Chapterhouse case, not because GW want to make the army building more accessible.

Pain is the illusion of the weak body. Fear is the illusion of a weak mind. 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut



NE Ohio, USA

 BlackLobster wrote:
Personally, unless there is something in the Index books that you really really want, I'd suggest sticking to the Codex books. At least then you'll know that whatever you bring to the table will be legal for play and people won't complain.



Of course if both parties read page 6 of the Designers Commentary they'd also know the correct answer....
   
Made in us
Blood Angel Neophyte Undergoing Surgeries



Scotland

That's the whole question though. How long will the Designers Commentary be actually applicable?
Just now, yes we can of course use index options when its not in the codex, or index units even if they aren't yet represented, as per thr commentary.
But when will that change? Shake shake.
"Reply hazy, try again"

Pain is the illusion of the weak body. Fear is the illusion of a weak mind. 
   
Made in us
Secret Inquisitorial Eldar Xenexecutor





Kai Calimatinus wrote:
That's the whole question though. How long will the Designers Commentary be actually applicable?
Just now, yes we can of course use index options when its not in the codex, or index units even if they aren't yet represented, as per thr commentary.
But when will that change? Shake shake.
"Reply hazy, try again"


Why would the Designer's commentary expire but not the indexes themselves? I have trouble believing one would be retired but not the others.

Cheers up mate, the designers aren't out to 'get' the players with any hidden gotchas.

Bender wrote:* Realise that despite the way people talk, this is not a professional sport played by demi gods, but rather a game of toy soldiers played by tired, inebriated human beings.


 lolman1c wrote:
The ork train has no breaks mothersquiggor!
 
   
Made in us
Blood Angel Neophyte Undergoing Surgeries



Scotland

By that I mean, the entire Index back-compatibility for matched play. Now, I fully believe that in their hearts the game designers want us to have the best game possible, even if the Legal team has some demands to make as far as that.

Pain is the illusion of the weak body. Fear is the illusion of a weak mind. 
   
Made in gb
Waaagh! Ork Warboss






The indexes are going to become Narrative/Open play only, anyone with basic pattern recognition can see that. How long it will be until that happens is a mystery.

Just build the model with a Storm Bolter, WYSIWYG isn't a rule anyway and when GW make it illegal in Matched Play just mention it to your opponent pre game.

+++++There are currently NINETY THREE (93) documents required to play Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++
Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
Because some people get their knickers in a twist, I'll list these RaW 'oddities' in my sig. Sadly GW's promise of fixing their broken rules has itself been broken. Zoom in to read them. RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy; "minimum" ranges don't work; Seraphim have to re-roll saves that "fail" pre-re-roll; the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit; the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously; Khârn punches himself in the face if he's not near some meatshields; Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list, Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12"; Spore Mines have an infinite range; Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything, only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad; T'au have access to stackable Ignore Wounds (albeit against Mortal Wounds only); the T'au Early Warning Override Support System only works if a unit is "teleporting to the battlefield", not just arriving mid-battle; you can only ever use the Deathwatch Teleportarium Stratagem "once", and then never again in any battle after you use it; if a model splits fire, each weapon must target a different unit; a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip can absorb an infinite amount of damage via Shieldwall between the time they die and the time they fight; Chapter Tactics on Successor Chapters don't actually do anything; Codex Leman Russ's can take an infinite amount of Hunter-Killer Missiles, Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers; Imothekh's 'Lord of the Storm' ability hits the "target unit" twice; "Airborne" units can't be charged by non-FLY units, but can be Heroically Intervened into, piled into, or consolidated into just fine by non-FLY units; Wave Serpents cannot be legally charged at by any model with a standard base; Slab Shields, along with the 'Take Cover!' stratagem no longer have any effect; and vehicles that are "slain" by a special effect do not trigger the "Explodes" ability; Taking any Forge World Space Marine Named Characters denies the use of a Chapter Tactic; and Chapter Tactics do not work on Successor Chapters.
--- Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities --- Stylus CSS theme for DakkaDakka forums to hide black avatar background and fully hide ignored users. --- Userscript to add a button to open all "[First Unread]" links on the page, hides the "[Blog View]" links, and adds a "Subscribed Threads" link to forum pages. 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




 ChargerIIC wrote:


Why would the Designer's commentary expire but not the indexes themselves? I have trouble believing one would be retired but not the others.

Cheers up mate, the designers aren't out to 'get' the players with any hidden gotchas.

I wouldn't put much faith in what the design team writes or say about the stuff they do or did or going to do. I remember 1/3 of the whole pre CA article being dedicted to how GK are going to be fixed, and how paladins and purifires are going to be worth taking, and that maybe there are even other hidden gems in the CA changes. All of that went down the drain as soon as people actually started leaking the book. And I thank them for it, because it allowed me to cancel the CA order.
   
Made in us
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer




Tampa, FL

I think it's high time to retire the Indexes. They served their purpose. The folks who want to keep using 20-year-old models from 5 editions ago need to move on. And it opens up a lot of BS like the Autarch who can take a bike, reaper launcher et all and just be ridiculous.

- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame 
   
Made in us
Executing Exarch




As much as I'd love to see the Indicies retired to open/narrative play I see a problem. There are still key models in them that have not been upgraded to a codex level. Models like the Ynnari (sp?), Sisters of Silence and, Assassins. I can't see a way for GW to make them into their own codices unless they reprint another base codex and add them in to the new codex.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Wayniac wrote:
I think it's high time to retire the Indexes. They served their purpose. The folks who want to keep using 20-year-old models from 5 editions ago need to move on. And it opens up a lot of BS like the Autarch who can take a bike, reaper launcher et all and just be ridiculous.


I really don't understand this attitude. Why would you want to invalidate peoples models/ remove options from the game? It doesn't help balance since most if not all of the index options are far from what breaks the game and just punishes older players and reduces variety on the table top.
   
Made in us
Blood Angel Neophyte Undergoing Surgeries



Scotland

There are some things. Missile Autarchs are one. Chaplains can get a Fist and a gun together, but mostly they are a waste of points.
A few mortal wounds and that biker autarch is out of here. That's like 1CP for the squad to target him with a strategem or one cast smite, he's hardly broken. And indeed, Inquisitors, Sisters of Silence, Assassins and Ynnari at least would be removed without further inclusion of them in codicesas of now. I see indexes staying at least till the end of 8th. They are just no longer suppprted by the balance passes or errata, is all. Points costs not covered in CA and WDs from here on just wont change.

Pain is the illusion of the weak body. Fear is the illusion of a weak mind. 
   
Made in gb
Brainy Zoanthrope





 Dysartes wrote:
 BlackLobster wrote:
Personally, unless there is something in the Index books that you really really want, I'd suggest sticking to the Codex books. At least then you'll know that whatever you bring to the table will be legal for play and people won't complain.


On the other hand, if people complain about you fielding a storm bolter on a Wolf Priest, they're probably not people you want to be playing anyway


Exactly!

Wayniac wrote:
I think it's high time to retire the Indexes. They served their purpose. The folks who want to keep using 20-year-old models from 5 editions ago need to move on. And it opens up a lot of BS like the Autarch who can take a bike, reaper launcher et all and just be ridiculous.


But what about options such as Kor'ssaro Khan on Moondrakken? Even though there may not be a model for it anymore, he's a legitimate case of keeping some Index options still going.

40K:
Genestealer Cult - 1287 pts.. 
   
Made in gb
Waaagh! Ork Warboss






 BlackLobster wrote:
But what about options such as Kor'ssaro Khan on Moondrakken? Even though there may not be a model for it anymore, he's a legitimate case of keeping some Index options still going.
Narrative Play only.

+++++There are currently NINETY THREE (93) documents required to play Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++
Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
Because some people get their knickers in a twist, I'll list these RaW 'oddities' in my sig. Sadly GW's promise of fixing their broken rules has itself been broken. Zoom in to read them. RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy; "minimum" ranges don't work; Seraphim have to re-roll saves that "fail" pre-re-roll; the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit; the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously; Khârn punches himself in the face if he's not near some meatshields; Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list, Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12"; Spore Mines have an infinite range; Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything, only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad; T'au have access to stackable Ignore Wounds (albeit against Mortal Wounds only); the T'au Early Warning Override Support System only works if a unit is "teleporting to the battlefield", not just arriving mid-battle; you can only ever use the Deathwatch Teleportarium Stratagem "once", and then never again in any battle after you use it; if a model splits fire, each weapon must target a different unit; a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip can absorb an infinite amount of damage via Shieldwall between the time they die and the time they fight; Chapter Tactics on Successor Chapters don't actually do anything; Codex Leman Russ's can take an infinite amount of Hunter-Killer Missiles, Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers; Imothekh's 'Lord of the Storm' ability hits the "target unit" twice; "Airborne" units can't be charged by non-FLY units, but can be Heroically Intervened into, piled into, or consolidated into just fine by non-FLY units; Wave Serpents cannot be legally charged at by any model with a standard base; Slab Shields, along with the 'Take Cover!' stratagem no longer have any effect; and vehicles that are "slain" by a special effect do not trigger the "Explodes" ability; Taking any Forge World Space Marine Named Characters denies the use of a Chapter Tactic; and Chapter Tactics do not work on Successor Chapters.
--- Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities --- Stylus CSS theme for DakkaDakka forums to hide black avatar background and fully hide ignored users. --- Userscript to add a button to open all "[First Unread]" links on the page, hides the "[Blog View]" links, and adds a "Subscribed Threads" link to forum pages. 
   
Made in gb
Brainy Zoanthrope





 BaconCatBug wrote:
 BlackLobster wrote:
But what about options such as Kor'ssaro Khan on Moondrakken? Even though there may not be a model for it anymore, he's a legitimate case of keeping some Index options still going.
Narrative Play only.


Why? Has Khan lost his bike in the last hundred years since the Fall of Cadia?

40K:
Genestealer Cult - 1287 pts.. 
   
Made in gb
Waaagh! Ork Warboss






 BlackLobster wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
 BlackLobster wrote:
But what about options such as Kor'ssaro Khan on Moondrakken? Even though there may not be a model for it anymore, he's a legitimate case of keeping some Index options still going.
Narrative Play only.
Why? Has Khan lost his bike in the last hundred years since the Fall of Cadia?
Because No Model, No Rules.

Direct your ire towards the GW legal team.

+++++There are currently NINETY THREE (93) documents required to play Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++
Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
Because some people get their knickers in a twist, I'll list these RaW 'oddities' in my sig. Sadly GW's promise of fixing their broken rules has itself been broken. Zoom in to read them. RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy; "minimum" ranges don't work; Seraphim have to re-roll saves that "fail" pre-re-roll; the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit; the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously; Khârn punches himself in the face if he's not near some meatshields; Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list, Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12"; Spore Mines have an infinite range; Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything, only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad; T'au have access to stackable Ignore Wounds (albeit against Mortal Wounds only); the T'au Early Warning Override Support System only works if a unit is "teleporting to the battlefield", not just arriving mid-battle; you can only ever use the Deathwatch Teleportarium Stratagem "once", and then never again in any battle after you use it; if a model splits fire, each weapon must target a different unit; a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip can absorb an infinite amount of damage via Shieldwall between the time they die and the time they fight; Chapter Tactics on Successor Chapters don't actually do anything; Codex Leman Russ's can take an infinite amount of Hunter-Killer Missiles, Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers; Imothekh's 'Lord of the Storm' ability hits the "target unit" twice; "Airborne" units can't be charged by non-FLY units, but can be Heroically Intervened into, piled into, or consolidated into just fine by non-FLY units; Wave Serpents cannot be legally charged at by any model with a standard base; Slab Shields, along with the 'Take Cover!' stratagem no longer have any effect; and vehicles that are "slain" by a special effect do not trigger the "Explodes" ability; Taking any Forge World Space Marine Named Characters denies the use of a Chapter Tactic; and Chapter Tactics do not work on Successor Chapters.
--- Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities --- Stylus CSS theme for DakkaDakka forums to hide black avatar background and fully hide ignored users. --- Userscript to add a button to open all "[First Unread]" links on the page, hides the "[Blog View]" links, and adds a "Subscribed Threads" link to forum pages. 
   
Made in us
Second Story Man




Astonished of Heck

 BaconCatBug wrote:
 BlackLobster wrote:
 BaconCatBug wrote:
 BlackLobster wrote:
But what about options such as Kor'ssaro Khan on Moondrakken? Even though there may not be a model for it anymore, he's a legitimate case of keeping some Index options still going.
Narrative Play only.
Why? Has Khan lost his bike in the last hundred years since the Fall of Cadia?
Because No Model, No Rules.

Direct your ire towards the GW legal team.

Why? The model team should be more than up to the task right now.

Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
 
   
Made in gb
Waaagh! Ork Warboss






 Charistoph wrote:
Why? The model team should be more than up to the task right now.
You can't copyright Mongolian culture or Space Marines.

You can copyright "Primaris Marines".

+++++There are currently NINETY THREE (93) documents required to play Warhammer 40,000 8th edition+++++
Disclaimer: My YMDC answers are from a "What the rules, as written (or modified by Special Snowflake FAQ) in the rulebooks, actually say" perspective, not a "What I wish the rules said" perspective. Even GW agrees with me, send an email to 40kfaq@gwplc.com for a confirmation reply "4. Apply The Rules As Written. If you still don’t have a satisfactory answer, use the rule just as it is written if you possibly can, even if you are not completely happy with the effect the rule has."
Because some people get their knickers in a twist, I'll list these RaW 'oddities' in my sig. Sadly GW's promise of fixing their broken rules has itself been broken. Zoom in to read them. RaW you cannot advance and then fire assault weapons, you can't shoot pistols if within 1" of an enemy; "minimum" ranges don't work; Seraphim have to re-roll saves that "fail" pre-re-roll; the game simply breaks if you ever have more than one wounded model in a unit; the game also breaks if a single rule ever tries to do multiple things simultaneously; Khârn punches himself in the face if he's not near some meatshields; Librarians on Bikes are locked to the Index power list, Howling Banshees can't declare a charge further than 12"; Spore Mines have an infinite range; Shroudpsalm technically doesn't do anything, only enemy models, not friendly models, have permission to move on top of a Skyshield Landing Pad; T'au have access to stackable Ignore Wounds (albeit against Mortal Wounds only); the T'au Early Warning Override Support System only works if a unit is "teleporting to the battlefield", not just arriving mid-battle; you can only ever use the Deathwatch Teleportarium Stratagem "once", and then never again in any battle after you use it; if a model splits fire, each weapon must target a different unit; a Tyrant Guard with Lashwhip can absorb an infinite amount of damage via Shieldwall between the time they die and the time they fight; Chapter Tactics on Successor Chapters don't actually do anything; Codex Leman Russ's can take an infinite amount of Hunter-Killer Missiles, Storm Bolters and Heavy Stubbers; Imothekh's 'Lord of the Storm' ability hits the "target unit" twice; "Airborne" units can't be charged by non-FLY units, but can be Heroically Intervened into, piled into, or consolidated into just fine by non-FLY units; Wave Serpents cannot be legally charged at by any model with a standard base; Slab Shields, along with the 'Take Cover!' stratagem no longer have any effect; and vehicles that are "slain" by a special effect do not trigger the "Explodes" ability; Taking any Forge World Space Marine Named Characters denies the use of a Chapter Tactic; and Chapter Tactics do not work on Successor Chapters.
--- Mathhammer tables for 2D6 and 3D6 Charging with various re-roll abilities --- Stylus CSS theme for DakkaDakka forums to hide black avatar background and fully hide ignored users. --- Userscript to add a button to open all "[First Unread]" links on the page, hides the "[Blog View]" links, and adds a "Subscribed Threads" link to forum pages. 
   
Made in us
Foolproof Falcon Pilot



california

It’s the people on here saying that index should be removed and it’s “to bad so sad if your model isn’t void anymore” that we need to get out of this game..
   
 
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