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It's quite obvious CWE has been the best book most often in this game. Not many people disagree with that.

About a year ago, we discussed who came next. Perhaps we should have that conversation again.

To box in the conversation, lets only discuss since the start of 6th edition.

So, since the start of 6th edition, what book has been the best, aside from CWE?

I'm quite confident it's SM, but many people disagree. Let's not get sidetracked by their *current* state (they're bad). But over the past 3 editions, they've had a number of good lists:

6E post-codex:
Grav Bikers
DevCents

7E pre-codex:
ObsecSpam
Grav Bikers
CentStar
SuperBestFriends

7E post-codex:
Gladius
Grav Bikers
CentStar
SuperBestFriends

8E pre-CA17:
Gman Gunlines

8E post-CA17:
Nothing

Space Marines have often had a lot of tools and toys. When you compare them to Craftworlders, they don't look like they've had a great history. But who has?

T'au?
6E pre-Codex:
Trash

6E post-Codex:
T'auDar, for a month, then CWE dropped the T'au part of T'auDar to do the same thing better
Riptides. Yeah, those were crazy good.

7E pre-codex:
Riptides.

7E post-codex:
Riptide Wings

8E pre-codex:
Garbage

8E post-codex:
Bad, but not garbage

DE? They had a couple DE/CWE tricks in 6E/7E, but were otherwise bad. And 8th was unkind to them until their codex came out. Only really good recently - although they are *really* good right now.

Knights? They haven't existed long. And have only been good very recently.

IG? Didn't do well until 8E, but have been great since it landed.

GK? You're not serious.

Nids? They have some tricks, but they haven't done as well as Marines.

Necrons? They were top dog for a month once in 7th?

Harlies? Really only stand out for Knight-hunting with CWE allies - and that's a meta thing, and a recent one at that.

Orkz? You must be trolling.

CSM? Some fun toys, sometimes considered SM+1, but rarely top tier.

Demons? These guys might actually be a contender. Their rules typically make them either useless or OP. We all remember demon summoning in 7th and their 2++ rerollable shenanigans. But they haven't done decently consistently.

Based on all the above, I suggest that SM *are* the second-most consistently-good book.

If not them, then who?

Bharring wrote:
Demons? These guys might actually be a contender. Their rules typically make them either useless or OP. We all remember demon summoning in 7th and their 2++ rerollable shenanigans. But they haven't done decently consistently.

Depends on how recent your recent history is, and whether you consider 'has the gladius formation' makes the army itself top tier.

Daemons were 1st and 3rd at the LVO in 2017, 3rd in 2016 (with the rest of the top spots split between eldar, crons, and a gladius in first), 3rd and 8th in an eldar dominated 2016 adepticon (a DA/SW/BA mix actually won that one) -- they went through a fairly decent stretch of shenanigans.

I figure the definition of "recent history" is debateable - so I specified "since 6E".

Yes, it's arbitrary. But it provides consistency.

Why discuss only post-sixth? I would consider 3rd to be the beginning of the "modern 40k era" with most of the current rules structure and most of the weirdball rogue trader/2nd ed minifactions trimmed out (until their re-additon in 7th and 8th).

Competitive 40k has always been a game of re-buying your models when the meta changes. It doesn't really matter if the same faction is competitive, if you still have to ebay and re-buy your models. To me, if I'm a tournament player and I like orks, it doesn't really help if I had a Kan Wall list in 5th and in 8th Orks become viable again but I need to buy 300 boyz to run a green tide.

So, I would rank it personally like this: Which models have proven to be the safest investment overall? I'd rank it like this:

Rank 1: Eldar Wave Serpents, Dire Avengers, HQs on bikes/Biker models in general.

The aspects come and go, and what the models are armed with changes, but the staples of competitive eldar lists seem to have always involved Wave Serpents at least in some capacity, and someone who owns a lot of these models has been able to use them in competitive meta lists year after year after year.

Rank 2: Razorbacks, Power Armored Infantry, and Devastators.

for this army, you've had to change your "faction" several times, but whether they're "space marines", "blood angels", "Space wolves" or "Ultramarines" over the years, you've been able to use the same models as long as you were smart and painted up your own custom chapter.

Rank 3: Tau Fire Warriors, Crisis Suits, Drones, and Riptides

I don't think it's much of a stretch to say these models are rank three. Crisis suits deserve extra attention because they're so easy to modify and they can be used to represent crisis suits, bodyguards, or (now) commanders/coldstar commanders with the same armament. Depending on the meta you may need to have Broadsides, Stealth Suits, Devilfish, or Kroot, but they come and go and aren't nearly as versatile as these four classes of model.

Rank 4: Tyranid Flyrants

I think these guys earn an honorable mention for their epic run from their model's creation to now, where the overall place of nids has changed, and their support elements have changed, but these have stayed a rock solid staple of nid lists, no matter what. It shoots, it scoots, it slices, it dices, it does it all baby!

I think if we are starting the examination with 6e then I would have to vote for daemons. If you look back any farther though they quickly fall into obscurity.

Also, dont forget that space marine formation in 7th that was two assault squads and two dev squads in drop pods that ignored all the drawbacks of deep striking in drop pods and gave a ton of arbitrary bonuses. I don't remember what it was called but that formation was nuts.

That was Skyhammer.

@the_scotsman
Have you seen a lot of CWE lists since the 7E codex came out that used DAs do well in tournaments? I don't recall seeing them.

Also, by biker models, I'm not sure I'd agree. Ork Bikes haven't been solidly great. SM bikes were good for a while, but aren't now. CSM bikes are SM bikes that can't take Grav. The non-HQ CWE Bike units have each been bad for 2 of the last 3 editions. I'm not sure I'd put BIkes as Tier 1.

Bharring wrote:
That was Skyhammer.

@the_scotsman
Have you seen a lot of CWE lists since the 7E codex came out that used DAs do well in tournaments? I don't recall seeing them.

Also, by biker models, I'm not sure I'd agree. Ork Bikes haven't been solidly great. SM bikes were good for a while, but aren't now. CSM bikes are SM bikes that can't take Grav. The non-HQ CWE Bike units have each been bad for 2 of the last 3 editions. I'm not sure I'd put BIkes as Tier 1.

I meant Eldar bikes. I know many a competitive eldar player who slapped scatter lasers on the huge collection of eldar bikers they had and had gotten a lot of use out of from 3rd thru 6th.

Since you set the terms of duration, you are correct. But most of my play time was before 6th.

@the_scotsman
While the 7E ScatterBikes *could* be modified to be Shining Spears in 8th, that's either a ton of work or a crappy job. They have very different weapons, very different armor, and, fluffwise, they should be very different paintjobs (even without changing Chapters). So it's about the same as converting SM Scout Bikes to Marine Bikes.

The only other bike is the Vyper, which hasn't been competitive recently. Technically not a bike per the rules, but is actually a bike.

Bharring wrote:
@the_scotsman
While the 7E ScatterBikes *could* be modified to be Shining Spears in 8th, that's either a ton of work or a crappy job. They have very different weapons, very different armor, and, fluffwise, they should be very different paintjobs (even without changing Chapters). So it's about the same as converting SM Scout Bikes to Marine Bikes.

The only other bike is the Vyper, which hasn't been competitive recently. Technically not a bike per the rules, but is actually a bike.

No, I mean they took windriders with tl shuricats and changed the weapon.

Also, a LOT of people I know made shining spears out of their windriders...Guardian gun-holding arm, bright lance. Very easy to do. In my experience "Dedicated tournament 40k player" and "40k player who particularly cares about painting beyond tabletop standard+WYSIWYG" are mutually exclusive terms.

I'd probably vote for Tau. Struggling with the idea they are "garbage" post codex in 8th. They might not be tournament winning, but they often placed. In a world with no Soup I think they would be there or thereabouts.

They had a soft moment before they got a codex - but arguably so did CWE. Its just that this lasted... 4~ months for CWE rather than 9~ for Tau. In the grand scheme of things though that's nothing.

DE were bordering on unplayable in 7th (Codex Reaver Jetbike rather like Codex Hive Tyrant) so they are out.

Marines have generally *had a list* - but really after the start of 8th that hasn't been the case.

Tyel wrote:
Marines have generally *had a list* - but really after the start of 8th that hasn't been the case.

They've had their moments in 8th. The flyer errata for instance due to the marine stormraven lists early on.

Best army gw ever made? Heresy custodes, the single most broken thing ever in any edition.

Necrons were beefcakes at stages of 5th, 6th, and 7th.

But yes the answer is SM. SM have been great so many times.

Chaos Spacemarines 3.5?

Apologies, just realised that isn't 'recent'

Chaos Daemons were pretty good in 7th between summoning and re-rollable 2++ screamer stars.

Tyel wrote:
I'd probably vote for Tau. Struggling with the idea they are "garbage" post codex in 8th. They might not be tournament winning, but they often placed. In a world with no Soup I think they would be there or thereabouts.

I'd second that. There's a reason so many people hate playing against Tau.

GK were good in 4th or 5th edition?

Karol wrote:
GK were good in 4th or 5th edition?

5th edition

In 4th edition they were codex:daemonhunters. Good theme, weak army. Their only troops were 25pts a model (50 for the compulsory sergeant who was the only one with a power weapon), their only fast attack was their troop unit held in reserve. Good terminators though and a solid enough pick as a small anti-daemon allied unit, the 3e grand master was one of the scarier HQs.