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Made in us
Battle-tested Knight Castellan Pilot






OK, so please know that I'm not trolling at all. But, these are my thoughts on the game. I'm sure I'm gonna catch a lot of crap from people for feeling this way as well as people telling me not to play if I feel the way I do below. But, I think it's something that needs to be said.

I think the LVO commentators hit the nail on the head when addressing the people in the Warhammer TV chat. The chat had asked that they focus on the game instead of talking about other things.

The commentators said they definitely would. But, with Warhammer, sometimes there's a lot going on. Sometimes there's a lot not going on (this is the key). And, sometimes there are times when they aren't sure what's going on.

I wish there was a way to speed up that "there's a lot not going on" part. That's what makes games absolutely drag forever for me and quickly turn me off to playing a 2000 point game. Because, most likely, for at minimum, an hour and fifteen minutes, there's very little if anything going on for you. Yes, I understand that you can be working on next turn strategies during these times, but for more casual players like me, strategy isn't as important as having fun. And, standing there watching someone roll dice and/or move models around a table for an hour and fifteen minutes isn't what I consider fun.

SG

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/08 21:12:38


40K - Imperial Knights (House Hawkshroud) with Imperial Guard allies
AoS - Seraphon
Warhammer Underworlds - Garrek’s Reavers

*** I only play for fun. I do not play competitively. *** 
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




That's just one of the consequences of the IGO-UGO system 40k uses. There's a lot of downtime for the non-active player. In most situations you don't notice as much because you're still engaged with the game in some way, either through thinking through your next moves, considering what your opponent is doing or just generally chatting and being sociable during the game. Unfortunately, when you're watching on Twtich or YT you can't do any of those things, so the games can drag quite badly.

I also prefer to play quickly and probably play a bit faster than the average player but I have to admit it can sometimes be frustrating playing against people who are particularly slow, especially for no reason. I get that you'll need to consider tactics and make some tough decisions at times, but it can be annoying when something like just rolling dice takes longer than it should. I think that's probably the area that any slow player can work on improving. It's a purely mechanical thing involving no decision making so it should happen fairly quickly.
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




Ok, but if strategy and counting propabilty fast isn't your thing then the chance of you playing a tournament should be rather low too right ? I mean this is a bit like expecting that, because outside of US football is considered strange to boring, it should be changed in a such a way that real football fans like it.
   
Made in us
Battle-tested Knight Castellan Pilot






Slipspace wrote:
That's just one of the consequences of the IGO-UGO system 40k uses. There's a lot of downtime for the non-active player. In most situations you don't notice as much because you're still engaged with the game in some way, either through thinking through your next moves, considering what your opponent is doing or just generally chatting and being sociable during the game. Unfortunately, when you're watching on Twtich or YT you can't do any of those things, so the games can drag quite badly.
You are right. AoS has kinda fixed this issue with fighting happening on both sides during both turns. That said, I have played AoS before, and it can drag as well. Granted, both of us were beginners, but it still moved so slowly. I just wish there was a better way to speed up the entire game. Maybe limit the games to low points (choosing any units... very unlike Kill Team)? That's about all I can think of right now. But, 500, 750, and 1000 point games seem like they'd be much more fun.

SG


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Karol wrote:
Ok, but if strategy and counting propabilty fast isn't your thing then the chance of you playing a tournament should be rather low too right ?
Nah... not at all. Now, would I play competitively at a tournament? No, not at all. But, I do hope that within at most the next five years, I will take a nice, long, maybe 10 day vacation to Vegas with my wife. I'll play 40K during LVO, and we'll do all the other tourist stuff the rest of the time we're there.

So yeah, it's very likely that I'll play in tournaments. But, unlike most competitive people, I probably won't be forming strategies in my head during my opponent's turn. And, I'll probably be making moves fairly quickly on my turn as I don't care who wins... as long as we're both having fun.

SG

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/08 21:27:31


40K - Imperial Knights (House Hawkshroud) with Imperial Guard allies
AoS - Seraphon
Warhammer Underworlds - Garrek’s Reavers

*** I only play for fun. I do not play competitively. *** 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut




So yeah, it's very likely that I'll play in tournaments. But, unlike most competitive people, I probably won't be forming strategies in my head during my opponent's turn.

But then you wouldn't have a chance to win the event, unless the army was so good and tailored for the event that it could ignore what the other player is doing. I never saw such a list myself, but maybe it does exist. Plus I doubt your opponets would be happy about you being unfocused while playing. Winning is one thing, but if the person you win against also loses all their later games your not getting much small points. Idealy one would want to beat someone who wins at least 3 other games and doesn't drop out. Only droping out is worse then someone who only loses his games.
   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran




Karol wrote:
So yeah, it's very likely that I'll play in tournaments. But, unlike most competitive people, I probably won't be forming strategies in my head during my opponent's turn.

But then you wouldn't have a chance to win the event, unless the army was so good and tailored for the event that it could ignore what the other player is doing. I never saw such a list myself, but maybe it does exist.


You do realise there are hundreds of people in the LVO and realistically probably only a dozen that are in with a shot of winning, right? Not everyone goes to a tournament expecting to win it. For a very large number of people they're going to play the game they like to play against new and interesting opponents and armies.

Karol wrote:
Plus I doubt your opponets would be happy about you being unfocused while playing. Winning is one thing, but if the person you win against also loses all their later games your not getting much small points. Idealy one would want to beat someone who wins at least 3 other games and doesn't drop out. Only droping out is worse then someone who only loses his games.


He never said he'd be unfocussed. I assume he'll be concentrated enough on the game to perform all required actions during his opponent's turn. I have no idea what you're talking about in the rest of your comment. I think you're implying that a player who doesn't do well at a tournament somehow impacts the scores of their opponents in that tournament in a negative way. That's not how tournament scoring works. In fact, the Swiss pairing system is designed to try to make sure all players are matched against roughly equal opponents anyway.
   
Made in us
Ancient Venerable Dark Angels Dreadnought





Play with alternating actions using a system like Bolt Action, your game will be all the better for it.

“There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
 
   
Made in us
Cosmic Joe





 ServiceGames wrote:
OK, so please know that I'm not trolling at all. But, these are my thoughts on the game. I'm sure I'm gonna catch a lot of crap from people for feeling this way as well as people telling me not to play if I feel the way I do below. But, I think it's something that needs to be said.

I think the LVO commentators hit the nail on the head when addressing the people in the Warhammer TV chat. The chat had asked that they focus on the game instead of talking about other things.

The commentators said they definitely would. But, with Warhammer, sometimes there's a lot going on. Sometimes there's a lot not going on (this is the key). And, sometimes there are times when they aren't sure what's going on.

I wish there was a way to speed up that "there's a lot not going on" part. That's what makes games absolutely drag forever for me and quickly turn me off to playing a 2000 point game. Because, most likely, for at minimum, an hour and fifteen minutes, there's very little if anything going on for you. Yes, I understand that you can be working on next turn strategies during these times, but for more casual players like me, strategy isn't as important as having fun. And, standing there watching someone roll dice and/or move models around a table for an hour and fifteen minutes isn't what I consider fun.

SG


You each have a set amount of time to play your turns like WMH uses in Steamroller. Boom- problem solved. No more people dithering around.



A GW fan walks into a bar, buys the same drink as yesterday but pays more.

""Unite" is a human word, ... join me or die." 
   
Made in us
The Last Chancer Who Survived




On moon miranda.

This is hardly unique to Warhammer. I absolutely cannot stand watching sports games for much the same reason. Six minutes of actual ball time in a three and a half hour NFL game with the commentators having to fill the dead airtime with inane gibberish is just not worth my time.

I don't watch other people stream games for much the same reason, playing is fun, watching a game you are noy involved in, with all the waiting and hoopla included, just isn't fun for me, be it tabletop or videogames. I have zero interest in spending my time watching other people play, id rather be playing or doing something else.

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

Heavy Gear Painting Log, Northern Guard, Southern Republican Army, and Terrain
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





I can't stomach 10 minutes of watching Hockey, Soccer, Baseball, Football, or anything like that.

Somehow, play minesweeper in front of me, and I'm glued for an hour.

Different things are more exciting to different people.
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





Didn't hear the comment, but my god, there's SO much you can discuss. At one point they were waiting for a guy to pick a psychic power to use, and rather than actually talking about what power might be best, they just talked about other stuff. That was a great time to show different plays, and they did nothing instead.

 Galef wrote:
If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




I don't understand your point. Its not going to be fun for you. You know its not going to be fun for you. And yet your going to play anyway..

This boredom sounds self inflicted.

Perhaps go play in the for fun tourney?
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Yarium wrote:
Didn't hear the comment, but my god, there's SO much you can discuss. At one point they were waiting for a guy to pick a psychic power to use, and rather than actually talking about what power might be best, they just talked about other stuff. That was a great time to show different plays, and they did nothing instead.



They still talk about those things, too. It's not all one direction.

[im]https://imgur.com/kEUzFF0.png[im]

http://insighthammer.com/ 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Huh, weird.
It's a game (usually) between 2 players. I'm typically enjoying myself while the other guy is playing too. If I was just concerned about my fun/involvement, I'd play solo.
   
Made in us
Stoic Grail Knight




 Daedalus81 wrote:
 Yarium wrote:
Didn't hear the comment, but my god, there's SO much you can discuss. At one point they were waiting for a guy to pick a psychic power to use, and rather than actually talking about what power might be best, they just talked about other stuff. That was a great time to show different plays, and they did nothing instead.



They still talk about those things, too. It's not all one direction.


If only we had a Tastosis, but it would help if we had some strategically minded 'nerds' to be as a commentator. In e-sports, you frequently get a "duo" where one is good at keeping the audience's attention while the other knows the entire game like an encyclopedia. Then they can work with each other.
   
Made in gb
Fighter Ace





One issue is the players still insist on playing 2000pts games and then moaning about nothing going on.

PLAY SMALLER GAMES
   
Made in nl
Longtime Dakkanaut





ValentineGames wrote:
One issue is the players still insist on playing 2000pts games and then moaning about nothing going on.

PLAY SMALLER GAMES
The people playing are not the ones complaining....
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






That’s just the art of sports commentary - no-one wants just silence when nothing’s going on, so knowing how to fill is part of the skill.

The masters of that art would probably be test match cricket commentators, but an honourable mention goes to the BBC Formula 1 commentators in 2011 when the Canadian Grand Prix was suspended for two hours due to rain - they ended up commentating on the performance of the stewards clearing water and discussing the birds on the circuit.
   
Made in gb
Lead-Footed Trukkboy Driver




London UK

2000, its the only game in town.

For so many reasons points are set at 2000 or 1500 or your choice. The ITC tournament standard was set at 2000 at the beginning of 8th. They considered changing it. GW have dropped it to 1500 others do 1750.

Changing the points may change the time but it can't fix the perception that there is a problem. The problem perhaps is that the perception needs to change. For the hundreds of people at the LVO it isn't a problem, for them 2000 is the only game in town.

There is a point at which the game breaks when you change points. at around 1250 and below most armies cannot bring to bear enough force to handle others like Knights.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/09 14:06:31


 
   
Made in ca
Frenzied Berserker Terminator





Canada

Ha, the English.

So droll they'll even comment on the lack of things to comment on.

I think, and I say this as a quarter Welshman raised by ironfisted Proper Englishmen, it's a cultural issue.

'Hmmm, I say Jones that Dark Angels player seems a bit put off facing those Orks.'

'Indeed Ashleigh those sodding Orks are so ruddy numerous!'

'Look, table twelve Jones! That Space Wolf player has gone and gotten himself a packet of crisps!'

'Bloomin' 'ell! Ketchup?'

'You'd expect that sort of thing from a World Eaters player, I mean really...'



Gets along better with animals... Go figure. 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





That's why I prefer Kill Team. The games are faster, more action-packed, much more back-and-forth. You're always invested in what's happening because one model can affect the whole game.
   
Made in us
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot





I don't ever really feel like there's extensive downtime.

My opponent's turn goes by quickly, and when I'm not taking saves, I'm planning and re-planning how the next few turn will go.


Also, I'll spend the time chit-chatting with my foe, or my friends at other tables.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/09 19:35:42


Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades! 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I don't ever really feel like there's extensive downtime.

My opponent's turn goes by quickly, and when I'm not taking saves, I'm planning and re-planning how the next few turn will go.


Also, I'll spend the time chit-chatting with my foe, or my friends at other tables.


Right? My legs are burning at the end of a one day tournament even. Unless someone gets wiped early then there is very little extra time.

[im]https://imgur.com/kEUzFF0.png[im]

http://insighthammer.com/ 
   
Made in gb
Been Around the Block





This is an issue with watching a game of 40k not playing it. You are missing on the social interactions which drive the game. no wonder nothing is happening at times.
   
Made in gb
Imperial Agent Provocateur





Bridport

I've been watching it on Twitch too. Other than bandwidth issues (probably at my end ), the commentary is IMHO an issue. They show the one table that's set up, and don't even mention any other game that's going on. The chat is full of people asking how X Is doing, but the commentators don't know what else is happening. Yes, some are podcast "celebrities" who may be fairly unknown to others, but updates on tables with top players in the leagues would make sense. The ideal time to do so is during times when not much is happening.
   
 
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