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How would people feel if Imperial Guard Veterans were moved back to the Troops slot? I didn't mind them as elites until Rule of 3 came around, and now you can't really build a Veteran IG army (Without scions at least)
"For the dark gods!" - A traitor guardsmen, probably before being killed.
I wouldn't mind keeping them in Elites if they actually had a role besides "Guardsmen with BS3+ and 3x Specials". You could give them back the Doctrines they had in 5th Ed, some ideas like:
- Demolitions: Gives the squad Meltabombs
- Infiltrators: Squad gets Camocloaks and Scout move.
- Suppressors: Squad gets Carapace Armour
At the moment they're a very boring unit, I don't really see what moving them to Troops would achieve.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Sir Heckington wrote: How would people feel if Imperial Guard Veterans were moved back to the Troops slot? I didn't mind them as elites until Rule of 3 came around, and now you can't really build a Veteran IG army (Without scions at least)
Well yes and no. I'd go with something more like: You can use this unit as Troops, if you do not include any other Troops unit types in the same detachment.
So you can make a pure Veteran detachment, but you can't mix and match with regular or MT squads.
Sir Heckington wrote: How would people feel if Imperial Guard Veterans were moved back to the Troops slot? I didn't mind them as elites until Rule of 3 came around, and now you can't really build a Veteran IG army (Without scions at least)
Well yes and no. I'd go with something more like: You can use this unit as Troops, if you do not include any other Troops unit types in the same detachment.
So you can make a pure Veteran detachment, but you can't mix and match with regular or MT squads.
I like this. I'd also say give them back specializations so they can be an interesting unit.
"For the dark gods!" - A traitor guardsmen, probably before being killed.
I'd love it. It would certainly make mechanized guard more useful. Currently there's no point in protecting a guardsman squad because they're so cheap that it's more cost effective to just buy 3x squads. If you can take Veteran Guardsmen with 3x special weapons though, they become expensive enough to merit some additional protection a vehicle affords them.
Veterans are in a tough spot because there’s not a whole lot they can do without being superior or inferior to scions. If they are troops they obviously need to be better than the average line guardsman but inferior to the scions while still being costed apropriately. As long as you’re using a D6 system it’s going to be hard to hit that perfect balance.
If you do give veterans squads those bumps and move them to troops, consider putting a 1-1 ratio of guardsman squads to veteran squads. Plasma spam is already annoying. Dealing with mass amounts of troops who can spam BS 3+ plasma will make it worse.
evil_kiwi_60 wrote: Veterans are in a tough spot because there’s not a whole lot they can do without being superior or inferior to scions. If they are troops they obviously need to be better than the average line guardsman but inferior to the scions while still being costed apropriately. As long as you’re using a D6 system it’s going to be hard to hit that perfect balance.
If you do give veterans squads those bumps and move them to troops, consider putting a 1-1 ratio of guardsman squads to veteran squads. Plasma spam is already annoying. Dealing with mass amounts of troops who can spam BS 3+ plasma will make it worse.
Just roll scions into Veterans as a choseable upgrade?
Issue solved.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Veterans need to have a role that:
a) Shows their status of "the old guys" in the Regiment, those who aren't actually officers but are still respected and listened to--and that the officers in question value them. We kinda/sorta have that in Command Squads.
b) Shows that they can scrounge up, steal, or be issued equipment appropriate for their Regiment and their roles in question.
c) Lets them actually compete in a bloated slot.
To address A and C? I envision Veterans as being the kind of 'Synapse Creatures' that Warriors are for the Tyranids, effectively, but with an added "buff" element.
We know what we're doing, lad... wrote:
Friendly <Regiment> units within 6" of a unit of Veterans are treated as being given the same Order that the unit of Veterans was given. Additionally, Veterans are always treated as being within range of an Officer for the purposes of issuing Orders.
To address B? We need to break Veterans up into a few different unit types rather than just "Veterans". That's a big problem.
I'd do:
1) Veteran Squad. It's a normal Infantry Squad with Veteran stats, but access to more specials, heavies, and shotguns.Maybe give them an infiltrate/scout move?
2) Grenadiers/Kasrkin. Carapace armored, hellguns(give them higher Strength but an AP of -1 instead of -3 like Hotshot Lasguns--maybe even 2 damage? Assault instead of Rapid Fire.) as base. This would be where you'd see the introduction of Heavy Stubbers with variable ammo types, underslung grenade launchers, etc. The "gloryboys" of the Guard.
3) "Scouts". Camo cloaks, forward move, can break into smaller teams of spotters/snipers and forward observers for the artillery.
We know what we're doing, lad... wrote:
Friendly <Regiment> units within 6" of a unit of Veterans are treated as being given the same Order that the unit of Veterans was given. Additionally, Veterans are always treated as being within range of an Officer for the purposes of issuing Orders.
Thats a terrifying force multiplier there. A single CC could conceivably order up an entire gunline with careful positioning of Vet teams.
Kanluwen wrote: Veterans need to have a role that:
a) Shows their status of "the old guys" in the Regiment, those who aren't actually officers but are still respected and listened to--and that the officers in question value them. We kinda/sorta have that in Command Squads.
b) Shows that they can scrounge up, steal, or be issued equipment appropriate for their Regiment and their roles in question.
c) Lets them actually compete in a bloated slot.
To address A and C? I envision Veterans as being the kind of 'Synapse Creatures' that Warriors are for the Tyranids, effectively, but with an added "buff" element.
We know what we're doing, lad... wrote:
Friendly <Regiment> units within 6" of a unit of Veterans are treated as being given the same Order that the unit of Veterans was given. Additionally, Veterans are always treated as being within range of an Officer for the purposes of issuing Orders.
To address B? We need to break Veterans up into a few different unit types rather than just "Veterans". That's a big problem.
I'd do:
1) Veteran Squad. It's a normal Infantry Squad with Veteran stats, but access to more specials, heavies, and shotguns.Maybe give them an infiltrate/scout move?
2) Grenadiers/Kasrkin. Carapace armored, hellguns(give them higher Strength but an AP of -1 instead of -3 like Hotshot Lasguns--maybe even 2 damage? Assault instead of Rapid Fire.) as base. This would be where you'd see the introduction of Heavy Stubbers with variable ammo types, underslung grenade launchers, etc. The "gloryboys" of the Guard.
3) "Scouts". Camo cloaks, forward move, can break into smaller teams of spotters/snipers and forward observers for the artillery.
This is the rough notes mind.
Sorry nope, gotta put a HUUUUUGEEEE NOPE right there.
That aura synapse is waaaaaay to broken.
3 differing types of vets is just bloat.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/15 18:58:44
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
We know what we're doing, lad... wrote:
Friendly <Regiment> units within 6" of a unit of Veterans are treated as being given the same Order that the unit of Veterans was given. Additionally, Veterans are always treated as being within range of an Officer for the purposes of issuing Orders.
Thats a terrifying force multiplier there. A single CC could conceivably order up an entire gunline with careful positioning of Vet teams.
Yep--and that's the idea. It makes veterans have:
a)A role that Scions don't.
b)A competitive bit for their Elite slot status.
c)A reason to be used as something other than a special weapons caddy unit.
And B is a bit important:
I'm not trying to make Veterans into Troops. I'm keeping them in the Elite slot. I honestly have toyed with the idea of Veterans being able to issue Orders to themselves, in addition to whatever Orders an Officer might gave them. It actually made for a surprisingly refreshing dynamic to the unit compared to Infantry Squads and the like.
Sorry nope, gotta put a HUUUUUGEEEE NOPE right there.
That aura synapse is waaaaaay to broken.
Like hell it is. It's no different than me running Cadians and having a Warlord with their trait and loaded dice to get to issue an Order to an additional unit within range.
3 differing types of vets is just bloat.
Not really. What's bloat is trying to cram a bunch of "doctrines" into a single unit entry when someone expects them to each act independently.
With that note in mind, one idea I've tossed around is the following:
Unlike most units for Matched Play purposes, you can only have 3 units with the Veterans keyword in any combination(Grenadiers, Veterans, Scouts or 3 of any single type).
Another variation was to have the Regiments have a "signature unit" to them, restricting their access to specific <Regiments>. Cadians and Vostroyans could get access to all 3 types while Valhallans, Tallarn, and Catachans got Scouts and Veterans only and Steel Legion and Mordians got Grenadiers and Veterans.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/15 19:36:17
Like hell it is. It's no different than me running Cadians and having a Warlord with their trait and loaded dice to get to issue an Order to an additional unit within range.
Nope that is not the same, and NO such an aura should not ever exist. Period. Also loaded dice? like seriously no. Normally you seem level headed but even you should realise that THIS will just lead to more Abbadon like conga shenanigans.
Not really. What's bloat is trying to cram a bunch of "doctrines" into a single unit entry when someone expects them to each act independently.
With that note in mind, one idea I've tossed around is the following:
Unlike most units for Matched Play purposes, you can only have 3 units with the Veterans keyword in any combination(Grenadiers, Veterans, Scouts or 3 of any single type).
Another variation was to have the Regiments have a "signature unit" to them, restricting their access to specific <Regiments>. Cadians and Vostroyans could get access to all 3 types while Valhallans, Tallarn, and Catachans got Scouts and Veterans only and Steel Legion and Mordians got Grenadiers and Veterans.
So bloat again.
Also letting Vets remain in Elites does not solve your issue.
Infact it just leads to more gunline 08/15 ig squad gameplay.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/15 19:42:42
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Like hell it is. It's no different than me running Cadians and having a Warlord with their trait and loaded dice to get to issue an Order to an additional unit within range.
Nope that is not the same, and NO such an aura should not ever exist. Period. Also loaded dice? like seriously no. Normally you seem level headed but even you should realise that THIS will just lead to more Abbadon like conga shenanigans.
The loaded dice bit is a reference to the fact that the Cadian Warlord Trait is half-assed. It's a single additional unit within range of the Officer getting issued the same Order on a roll of a 4+.
Not really. What's bloat is trying to cram a bunch of "doctrines" into a single unit entry when someone expects them to each act independently.
With that note in mind, one idea I've tossed around is the following:
Unlike most units for Matched Play purposes, you can only have 3 units with the Veterans keyword in any combination(Grenadiers, Veterans, Scouts or 3 of any single type). Another variation was to have the Regiments have a "signature unit" to them, restricting their access to specific <Regiments>. Cadians and Vostroyans could get access to all 3 types while Valhallans, Tallarn, and Catachans got Scouts and Veterans only and Steel Legion and Mordians got Grenadiers and Veterans.
So bloat again.
So you just want to keep saying "bloat" I take it?
There is a significant difference with adding a Matched Play note(which is already present for Command Squads I might add) or a notation to the Regimental Doctrines and literally bloating a unit profile.
Also letting Vets remain in Elites does not solve your issue.
It really does. They aren't Troops and they don't need to be. But they damn well need a reason to be justifying their Elite status, and this is a good way alongside of differentiating them from Scions.
Infact it just leads to more gunline 08/15 ig squad gameplay.
It's the Imperial Guard. It will always be a gunline army.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/15 19:54:57
And B is a bit important:
I'm not trying to make Veterans into Troops. I'm keeping them in the Elite slot. I honestly have toyed with the idea of Veterans being able to issue Orders to themselves, in addition to whatever Orders an Officer might gave them. It actually made for a surprisingly refreshing dynamic to the unit compared to Infantry Squads and the like.
Counterpoint: fold the Platoon Commander into the Vet Squad as it's "Sergeant".
And B is a bit important:
I'm not trying to make Veterans into Troops. I'm keeping them in the Elite slot. I honestly have toyed with the idea of Veterans being able to issue Orders to themselves, in addition to whatever Orders an Officer might gave them. It actually made for a surprisingly refreshing dynamic to the unit compared to Infantry Squads and the like.
Counterpoint: fold the Platoon Commander into the Vet Squad as it's "Sergeant".
I've actually got ideas for Officers, notably removing the "Company" and "Platoon" titles and swapping them to "Senior" and "Junior" officers.
Senior Officers remain as HQs, Juniors become a "unit" that gets split out after the game starts.
Like hell it is. It's no different than me running Cadians and having a Warlord with their trait and loaded dice to get to issue an Order to an additional unit within range.
Nope that is not the same, and NO such an aura should not ever exist. Period. Also loaded dice? like seriously no. Normally you seem level headed but even you should realise that THIS will just lead to more Abbadon like conga shenanigans.
The loaded dice bit is a reference to the fact that the Cadian Warlord Trait is half-assed. It's a single additional unit within range of the Officer getting issued the same Order on a roll of a 4+.
Not really. What's bloat is trying to cram a bunch of "doctrines" into a single unit entry when someone expects them to each act independently.
With that note in mind, one idea I've tossed around is the following:
Unlike most units for Matched Play purposes, you can only have 3 units with the Veterans keyword in any combination(Grenadiers, Veterans, Scouts or 3 of any single type).
Another variation was to have the Regiments have a "signature unit" to them, restricting their access to specific <Regiments>. Cadians and Vostroyans could get access to all 3 types while Valhallans, Tallarn, and Catachans got Scouts and Veterans only and Steel Legion and Mordians got Grenadiers and Veterans.
So bloat again.
So you just want to keep saying "bloat" I take it?
There is a significant difference with adding a Matched Play note(which is already present for Command Squads I might add) or a notation to the Regimental Doctrines and literally bloating a unit profile.
Also letting Vets remain in Elites does not solve your issue.
It really does. They aren't Troops and they don't need to be. But they damn well need a reason to be justifying their Elite status, and this is a good way alongside of differentiating them from Scions.
Infact it just leads to more gunline 08/15 ig squad gameplay.
It's the Imperial Guard. It will always be a gunline army.
No i just don't see the appeal in 3 seperate new <Veterans, also Mechanized was very much playable thank you, and thanks to TROOP veterans, but sure, let's have a mini Gulliman with no more Aurarange restrictions?
Have you actually thought that interaction through?
It would be one thing for Veterans to order themselves or another squad like a mini Commander. It is a WHOLE OTHER Thing when the squad suddendly acts like an extension of a Commander for the whole board.
>
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/15 20:08:55
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
They could MAYBE give themselves half-assed versions of the current generic Orders? Commanders still help them a lot, but they wouldn't need to actually be near them.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
No i just don't see the appeal in 3 seperate new <Veterans, also Mechanized was very much playable thank you, and thanks to TROOP veterans
That's debatable. I'd say that the setup now is actually a hell of a lot better representation of Mechanized than MechVet was.
but sure, let's have a mini Gulliman with no more Aurarange restrictions?
Have you actually thought that interaction through?
It would be one thing for Veterans to order themselves or another squad like a mini Commander. It is a WHOLE OTHER Thing when the squad suddendly acts like an extension of a Commander for the whole board.
>
Have you thought the interaction through?
You can Order a hell of a lot more people at once. But Orders can only be applied one at a time to a unit. That's the whole way Orders work.
If I FRFSRF on a unit of Veterans with Lasguns? It makes for a hell of a lot more fire. But I'm not doing that to a unit of Kasrkin--they don't have Hotshot Lasguns or Lasguns. I'm putting "Take Aim!" on them...and then it spreads to everyone, locking them out of FRFSRF.
No i just don't see the appeal in 3 seperate new <Veterans, also Mechanized was very much playable thank you, and thanks to TROOP veterans
That's debatable. I'd say that the setup now is actually a hell of a lot better representation of Mechanized than MechVet was.
but sure, let's have a mini Gulliman with no more Aurarange restrictions?
Have you actually thought that interaction through?
It would be one thing for Veterans to order themselves or another squad like a mini Commander. It is a WHOLE OTHER Thing when the squad suddendly acts like an extension of a Commander for the whole board.
>
Have you thought the interaction through?
You can Order a hell of a lot more people at once. But Orders can only be applied one at a time to a unit. That's the whole way Orders work.
If I FRFSRF on a unit of Veterans with Lasguns? It makes for a hell of a lot more fire. But I'm not doing that to a unit of Kasrkin--they don't have Hotshot Lasguns or Lasguns. I'm putting "Take Aim!" on them...and then it spreads to everyone, locking them out of FRFSRF.
No, ever heard about 2 commanders to fill the detachments? That is a stupid idea.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
No, ever heard about 2 commanders to fill the detachments? That is a stupid idea.
I mean this as nicely as possible, but do you understand the way that the Orders mechanic works?
A unit can only ever be affected by a single Order. The only exception comes from the Laurels of Command Relic, which requires a 4+ to issue a second Order to the same unit.
It doesn't matter how many Commanders you have. If everyone's under the effect of the Veterans' aura? They can't receive any additional Orders, unless you've got Laurels of Command and have used it when issuing Orders to the Veterans.
The fact that it's mandatory, not optional means that it is a double-edged sword. Sure you can huck a bunch of them into basically being buffbots for everyone...but then you've got a targetable Officer, effectively, that is going to be a pricey unit you've likely put upgrades into that can also lock units you didn't want Ordered with a specific Order into having to take the Order anyways.
If I FRFSRF on a unit of Veterans with Lasguns? It makes for a hell of a lot more fire. But I'm not doing that to a unit of Kasrkin--they don't have Hotshot Lasguns or Lasguns. I'm putting "Take Aim!" on them...and then it spreads to everyone, locking them out of FRFSRF.
The Laurels would like to have a word with you. And you'd never give Take Aim if you're looking for Order explosions. You'd go with FRFSRF. Doubling your shots over an entire gunline for one order, then telling your backline of mortars and command squads to Take Aim for a single commander and two Vet teams is just...no.
Seriously, 130 points and one CP for the capacity to give orders to your entire army is an auto-take no matter how you look at it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/15 20:55:04
No, ever heard about 2 commanders to fill the detachments? That is a stupid idea.
I mean this as nicely as possible, but do you understand the way that the Orders mechanic works?
A unit can only ever be affected by a single Order. The only exception comes from the Laurels of Command Relic, which requires a 4+ to issue a second Order to the same unit.
It doesn't matter how many Commanders you have. If everyone's under the effect of the Veterans' aura? They can't receive any additional Orders, unless you've got Laurels of Command and have used it when issuing Orders to the Veterans.
The fact that it's mandatory, not optional means that it is a double-edged sword. Sure you can huck a bunch of them into basically being buffbots for everyone...but then you've got a targetable Officer, effectively, that is going to be a pricey unit you've likely put upgrades into that can also lock units you didn't want Ordered with a specific Order into having to take the Order anyways.
And you are actually stupid in that case if you don't FIELD 2 VETERAN SQUADS. As in not you, but the rule you formulated literally allows one commander to issue order all over the map with no consequence.
See the issue?
Spread any order that is issued to them. 2 veteran squads within 6" of each other.
Friendly <Regiment> units within 6" of a unit of Veterans are treated as being given the same Order that the unit of Veterans was given. Additionally, Veterans are always treated as being within range of an Officer for the purposes of issuing Orders.
see the issue?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/15 21:08:43
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
If I FRFSRF on a unit of Veterans with Lasguns? It makes for a hell of a lot more fire. But I'm not doing that to a unit of Kasrkin--they don't have Hotshot Lasguns or Lasguns. I'm putting "Take Aim!" on them...and then it spreads to everyone, locking them out of FRFSRF.
The Laurels would like to have a word with you.
Do you actually read posts or just jump in?
I've addressed Laurels multiple times now.
And you'd never give Take Aim if you're looking for Order explosions. You'd go with FRFSRF.
Does FRFSRF specify Hellguns can use it?
No. That's the whole damn point of giving the Grenadier/Kasrkin unit Hellguns with Assault instead of Hotshot Lasguns.
Doubling your shots over an entire gunline for one order, then telling your backline of mortars and command squads to Take Aim for a single commander and two Vet teams is just...no.
lol, Command Squads...yeah, okay.
Seriously, 130 points and one CP for the capacity to give orders to your entire army is an auto-take no matter how you look at it.
Nowhere have I given any points costs. Don't even try to pretend that I've suggested there would be no need to adjust points.
And you are actually stupid in that case if you don't FIELD 2 VETERAN SQUADS. See the issue? Spread any order that is issued to them. 2 veteran squads within 6" of each other.
Friendly <Regiment> units within 6" of a unit of Veterans are treated as being given the same Order that the unit of Veterans was given. Additionally, Veterans are always treated as being within range of an Officer for the purposes of issuing Orders.
see the issue?
That's not how it would work. I've explained how the Orders mechanic, in general, works to you now. I've nowhere suggested that this supercedes the actual Order mechanic. I've actually made it clear that it functions the opposite way.
If you have 2 Veterans Squads within 6" of each other, the first Order would lock out further Orders to the second unit of Veterans.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/02/15 21:11:13
If I FRFSRF on a unit of Veterans with Lasguns? It makes for a hell of a lot more fire. But I'm not doing that to a unit of Kasrkin--they don't have Hotshot Lasguns or Lasguns. I'm putting "Take Aim!" on them...and then it spreads to everyone, locking them out of FRFSRF.
The Laurels would like to have a word with you.
Do you actually read posts or just jump in?
I've addressed Laurels multiple times now.
And you'd never give Take Aim if you're looking for Order explosions. You'd go with FRFSRF.
Does FRFSRF specify Hellguns can use it?
No. That's the whole damn point of giving the Grenadier/Kasrkin unit Hellguns with Assault instead of Hotshot Lasguns.
Doubling your shots over an entire gunline for one order, then telling your backline of mortars and command squads to Take Aim for a single commander and two Vet teams is just...no.
lol, Command Squads...yeah, okay.
Seriously, 130 points and one CP for the capacity to give orders to your entire army is an auto-take no matter how you look at it.
Nowhere have I given any points costs. Don't even try to pretend that I've suggested there would be no need to adjust points.
And you are actually stupid in that case if you don't FIELD 2 VETERAN SQUADS.
See the issue?
Spread any order that is issued to them. 2 veteran squads within 6" of each other.
Friendly <Regiment> units within 6" of a unit of Veterans are treated as being given the same Order that the unit of Veterans was given. Additionally, Veterans are always treated as being within range of an Officer for the purposes of issuing Orders.
see the issue?
That's not how it would work. I've explained how the Orders mechanic, in general, works to you now. I've nowhere suggested that this supercedes the actual Order mechanic. I've actually made it clear that it functions the opposite way.
If you have 2 Veterans Squads within 6" of each other, the first Order would lock out further Orders to the second unit of Veterans.
Yes sadly i do have to play guard since r&H suck and treated as is not "ordered", specify that and then we might talk about it.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
For future reference, just ask "what do you mean when you say 'treated as'?". We could have had a much nicer series of discussions instead of it being so hostile.
Kanluwen wrote: For future reference, just ask "what do you mean when you say 'treated as'?". We could have had a much nicer series of discussions instead of it being so hostile.
It is still a completely inaceptable aura beyond that.
Simply because the fact that you can order any Veteran regardless of range and in this case even further spreading it.
It would be better to just allow the sarge of Veterans to give orders, probably some more specific ones then the generic ones to show their experience.
But i agree the wording could've been better and that would'0ve lead to a more productive discussion.
I am sorry for that.
But "Treated" as is not the same as also ordered f.e.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/15 21:30:08
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
No. That's the whole damn point of giving the Grenadier/Kasrkin unit Hellguns with Assault instead of Hotshot Lasguns.
You...really dont understand why adding 20 shots to an entire horde of infantry squads by using a single officer is more valuable than giving them a reroll 1s do you.
That actually explains a lot.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/16 05:26:17
