Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
No. That's the whole damn point of giving the Grenadier/Kasrkin unit Hellguns with Assault instead of Hotshot Lasguns.
You...really dont understand why adding 20 shots to an entire horde of infantry squads by using a single officer is more valuable than giving them a reroll 1s do you.
That actually explains a lot.
You're so laser focused on the "Take Aim" bit that you're continually ignoring the reason I gave that specific example: I gave the example of Kasrkin with Hellguns, who couldn't receive FRFSRF because of the fact that Hellguns are not listed under FRFSRF. I wouldn't put them under FRFSRF either since it's supposed to be an "assault"-ish unit.
Cute that you cut the part about points and Command Squads though.
No. That's the whole damn point of giving the Grenadier/Kasrkin unit Hellguns with Assault instead of Hotshot Lasguns.
You...really dont understand why adding 20 shots to an entire horde of infantry squads by using a single officer is more valuable than giving them a reroll 1s do you.
That actually explains a lot.
You're so laser focused on the "Take Aim" bit that you're continually ignoring the reason I gave that specific example: I gave the example of Kasrkin with Hellguns, who couldn't receive FRFSRF because of the fact that Hellguns are not listed under FRFSRF. I wouldn't put them under FRFSRF either since it's supposed to be an "assault"-ish unit.
Cute that you cut the part about points and Command Squads though.
I don't follow.
You could still give the FRFSRF order to the Veterans even if they didn't have a lasgun/hotshot lasgun, and chain it across the army. Sure, they receive no benefit themselves, but if you've got Infantry Squads located around the Vets, you've just multiplied how many orders you gave massively.
Command Squads don't need to have lasguns to be affected - it's only that why would you use it if they didn't have lasguns?
I think I'd prefer that Veterans simply get the "order without range" bit, and maybe something like "one unit within 6" of the Veteran Squad may share the effect of any orders targeting the Veterans".
Gives the Veterans their utility in gunlines (FRFSRF is useless because if the Vets wouldn't be affected, you may as well just target the Infantry), but also gives them another utility, in being able to pseudo lead away teams without an officer getting involved. You could have tag teams of Veterans leading other units behind/into enemy lines, while keeping officers behind your own.
An Actual Englishman wrote: OP - are you proposing their points cost also increases to account for the fact that they'll be generating CP?
Moving vets to troops would just give IG another overpowered troop choice.
How excactly is a Veteran OP?
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
I don't really have an issue with Veterans where they're at, at least, as Elites, that is. I'd like them to be a little more than just Infantry Squad with +1 BS and more weapons - things like the old Doctrines, and potentially this "can pass on an order to a unit nearby" making them more than just Infantry Squads +1.
Rule of 3 isn't compulsory, and you have the Vanguard detachment to build Veteran-only detachments.
evil_kiwi_60 wrote: Veterans are in a tough spot because there’s not a whole lot they can do without being superior or inferior to scions. If they are troops they obviously need to be better than the average line guardsman but inferior to the scions while still being costed apropriately. As long as you’re using a D6 system it’s going to be hard to hit that perfect balance.
If you do give veterans squads those bumps and move them to troops, consider putting a 1-1 ratio of guardsman squads to veteran squads. Plasma spam is already annoying. Dealing with mass amounts of troops who can spam BS 3+ plasma will make it worse.
Just roll scions into Veterans as a choseable upgrade?
Issue solved.
No. Scions and the Militarum Tempestus are our own special forces regiment. We shouldn’t have to be tarnished and brought down to the level of poor guardsmen. We can be troops to make our own detachments and armies for a reason.
If the truth can destroy it, then it deserves to be destroyed.
evil_kiwi_60 wrote: Veterans are in a tough spot because there’s not a whole lot they can do without being superior or inferior to scions. If they are troops they obviously need to be better than the average line guardsman but inferior to the scions while still being costed apropriately. As long as you’re using a D6 system it’s going to be hard to hit that perfect balance.
If you do give veterans squads those bumps and move them to troops, consider putting a 1-1 ratio of guardsman squads to veteran squads. Plasma spam is already annoying. Dealing with mass amounts of troops who can spam BS 3+ plasma will make it worse.
Just roll scions into Veterans as a choseable upgrade?
Issue solved.
No. Scions and the Militarum Tempestus are our own special forces regiment. We shouldn’t have to be tarnished and brought down to the level of poor guardsmen. We can be troops to make our own detachments and armies for a reason.
Militarum Tempestus is something you find at Hogwarts.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/16 15:15:58
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
evil_kiwi_60 wrote: Veterans are in a tough spot because there’s not a whole lot they can do without being superior or inferior to scions. If they are troops they obviously need to be better than the average line guardsman but inferior to the scions while still being costed apropriately. As long as you’re using a D6 system it’s going to be hard to hit that perfect balance.
If you do give veterans squads those bumps and move them to troops, consider putting a 1-1 ratio of guardsman squads to veteran squads. Plasma spam is already annoying. Dealing with mass amounts of troops who can spam BS 3+ plasma will make it worse.
Just roll scions into Veterans as a choseable upgrade?
Issue solved.
No. Scions and the Militarum Tempestus are our own special forces regiment. We shouldn’t have to be tarnished and brought down to the level of poor guardsmen. We can be troops to make our own detachments and armies for a reason.
Militarum Tempestus is something you find at Hogwarts.
All I hear is jealousy from another guardsmen.
If the truth can destroy it, then it deserves to be destroyed.
evil_kiwi_60 wrote: Veterans are in a tough spot because there’s not a whole lot they can do without being superior or inferior to scions. If they are troops they obviously need to be better than the average line guardsman but inferior to the scions while still being costed apropriately. As long as you’re using a D6 system it’s going to be hard to hit that perfect balance.
If you do give veterans squads those bumps and move them to troops, consider putting a 1-1 ratio of guardsman squads to veteran squads. Plasma spam is already annoying. Dealing with mass amounts of troops who can spam BS 3+ plasma will make it worse.
Just roll scions into Veterans as a choseable upgrade?
Issue solved.
No. Scions and the Militarum Tempestus are our own special forces regiment. We shouldn’t have to be tarnished and brought down to the level of poor guardsmen. We can be troops to make our own detachments and armies for a reason.
Militarum Tempestus is something you find at Hogwarts.
All I hear is jealousy from another guardsmen.
All i hear is a tinsoldier speaking out of turn.
jokes aside, ever since chapter house the names have become even more ridicoulous. (obsidius Mallex, literally has hammer in the name and fields a hammer f.e.)
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
An Actual Englishman wrote: OP - are you proposing their points cost also increases to account for the fact that they'll be generating CP?
Moving vets to troops would just give IG another overpowered troop choice.
How excactly is a Veteran OP?
As they are? They aren't.
If they were troops [E - with no other changes]? Different discussion.
I don't see why, they are more expensive and pay more for their special weaponry.
Well the general consensus is that Infantry are took cheap so if we go from there.... Vets as troops are too cheap given their current cost.
They are more expensive then IG squads tho soo.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
An Actual Englishman wrote: OP - are you proposing their points cost also increases to account for the fact that they'll be generating CP?
Moving vets to troops would just give IG another overpowered troop choice.
How excactly is a Veteran OP?
As they are? They aren't.
If they were troops [E - with no other changes]? Different discussion.
I don't see why, they are more expensive and pay more for their special weaponry.
Well the general consensus is that Infantry are took cheap so if we go from there.... Vets as troops are too cheap given their current cost.
They are more expensive then IG squads tho soo.
Yes, by a point, correct?
So if IG squads should be 5ppm and are troops, vets (who are better) should be more than 5ppm if they are troops, no?
Guardsmen are only worth 5+ pts in soup though.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
An Actual Englishman wrote: OP - are you proposing their points cost also increases to account for the fact that they'll be generating CP?
Moving vets to troops would just give IG another overpowered troop choice.
How excactly is a Veteran OP?
As they are? They aren't.
If they were troops [E - with no other changes]? Different discussion.
I don't see why, they are more expensive and pay more for their special weaponry.
Well the general consensus is that Infantry are took cheap so if we go from there.... Vets as troops are too cheap given their current cost.
They are more expensive then IG squads tho soo.
Yes, by a point, correct?
So if IG squads should be 5ppm and are troops, vets (who are better) should be more than 5ppm if they are troops, no?
Guardsmen are only worth 5+ pts in soup though.
No, I strongly disagree.
Soup simply highlights how strong they are.
Even tough it was shown to you multiple times you still insist on it.
For the record i also am wondering why boyz went to 7 ppm
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
An Actual Englishman wrote: OP - are you proposing their points cost also increases to account for the fact that they'll be generating CP?
Moving vets to troops would just give IG another overpowered troop choice.
How excactly is a Veteran OP?
As they are? They aren't.
If they were troops [E - with no other changes]? Different discussion.
I don't see why, they are more expensive and pay more for their special weaponry.
Well the general consensus is that Infantry are took cheap so if we go from there.... Vets as troops are too cheap given their current cost.
They are more expensive then IG squads tho soo.
Yes, by a point, correct?
So if IG squads should be 5ppm and are troops, vets (who are better) should be more than 5ppm if they are troops, no?
Guardsmen are only worth 5+ pts in soup though.
No, I strongly disagree.
Soup simply highlights how strong they are.
Even tough it was shown to you multiple times you still insist on it.
For the record i also am wondering why boyz went to 7 ppm
It wasn't shown to me. Soup doesn't protect Infantry. Infantry are too cheap in soup lists, they're also too cheap in IG lists. Either way this isn't about Boyz (who I don't mind being 7ppm if other troops are also increased to a fair level) in my opinion 5ppm vets as troops are way, way too cheap.
Boyz went to 7 points because the 10 point bomb upgrade in the index is now free in the codex.
If you're taking multiples of 10 and were buying the bomb, they're exactly the same price. Otherwise yeah they did go up a point.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Boyz went to 7 points because the 10 point bomb upgrade in the index is now free in the codex.
If you're taking multiples of 10 and were buying the bomb, they're exactly the same price. Otherwise yeah they did go up a point.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Boyz went to 7 points because the 10 point bomb upgrade in the index is now free in the codex.
If you're taking multiples of 10 and were buying the bomb, they're exactly the same price. Otherwise yeah they did go up a point.
There was no ten point bomb upgrade in the index.
I swear they had an option to buy some grenade or bomb thing in the index
Automatically Appended Next Post: And then with the codex it was 0 points. I can't be imagining that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/02/17 01:11:55
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
