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I don't think chaos cultists feel chaotic enough. R&H has some options but generally feel too negative. Blackstone Fortress has some nice ideas with beefy 6pt beastmen (or hairy cheap assault marines?), self slaying psykers, tough mecha cultists and actual traitor soldiers. But, since they are kept pretty separate we have CSM cultists. I think they should feel more appropriate for their role.

The thing that feels off about them to me is that they are a coherent part of the Heretic Astartes legions and don't do anything significant related to their worship. Sorcerers are willing to buff these puny humans over their own battle-brothers, lords are willing to command these puny humans as part of their VotLW, and the marks on them from the god they worship (if any, seriously why is none an option?) do nothing unless commanded from a sorc or player. Plenty of people have recommended removing the heretic astertes and legion keyword, giving them a pass on detachment coherency. I agree but there will need to be some compensation for the total removal of synergy. Oh, and cap unit size at 20 already that cheese has gone moldy.

I recommend taking a page from the Thousand Sons/Grey Knights and giving the cultist champion 1 psychic power and 0 denies. Knows all powers from the Chaos Fanaticism discipline below (not smite). roll only 1d6 taking perils on unmodified 1
1) WC3 until the start of your next psychic phase this unit may shoot rapid fire and pistol weapons as if they were assault. Additionally, this unit does not suffer the -1 to hit penalty for advancing and shooting assault weapons.
2) WC3 until the start of your next psychic phase this unit gains +2 strength.
3) Requires mark of Khorne. WC3 destroy 3 models in this unit and target an enemy unit within 18". That unit is dealt one mortal wound. (yeah, a khorne power. I think he'd be ok with this one though).
4) Requires mark of Nurgle. WC3 return up to 3 slain models to this unit. At the beginning of your next psychic phase all models returned this way flee. alternatively -1 to be hit
5) Requires mark of Slaanesh. WC3 this unit may immediately move 4 inches. (looks redundant to #1 but can be helpful for charging or making up for a bad advance). alternatively 5+++
6) Requires mark of Tzeench. WC 3 Until the start of your next psychic phase this unit gains a 5+ invulnerable save.

Do these powers feel diverse and balanced enough to be fun to play with? Does a group of 10-20 rebels united by a champion that can call on a warp fueled power in the heat of battle feel chaos culty? Would this change in unit strength warrant a reduction back to 4ppm or make it more worthy of the current 5ppm? My goal was a more interesting experience including opponent interaction like SitW and denial, uncertainty but not as much punishment as R&H. Also to have sufficiently devoted cultists that the astartes would be ok with their existence but not total kinship.

I like the general direction you're going here. I'd like to see even more varied options along these lines, but those would probably make more sense in R&H. A few thoughts:

* Letting the cultist champion know all of the Chaos Fanaticism powers feels a little weird. That basically gives him the same number (if not quality) of options as Eldrad Ulthran. Why not just keep it at a single power or maybe 1 + an additional god-aligned power? To my mind, it's more fitting for a cult leader to have one specific "blessing" that he can hand out reliably rather than having a whole host of miracles he can call down on the fly.

* Hiding a psyker in a blob of 20 wounds seems like it should be a big deal, but the lack of smite or a smite equivalent combined with the less reliable casting probably makes it ok.

* Power 1. Someone posted a similar power to this in another thread. I'm not a fan of it because it requires you gamble in your movement phase on whether or not you'll pass a psychic test. If you advance to bring extra shots to bare or to get on an objective, then fail the power (or have it easily denied by an enemy psyker), you've just cheated yourself out of all your dakka. Also, you've pointed out yourself that it's a bit redundant with the Slaaneshi power.

* Power 2. I know it's easy to shut down when you need to, but letting a blob of cultists wound marines on 3s and knights on 5s seems like it may be a bit much. Then again, my Cursed Blade wyches can get to S5 with more attacks and a better WS, so... maybe it's fine? This is basically +1 to wound with a 2/3rds chance of going off each turn.

* Power 3. I like it. It's like a baby smite that costs you a little over 10 points to go off. That said, this really feels more like a Tzeentch ability than a Khorne one. I can totally picture cultists raising their athemae to sacrifice a few dudes and turn their souls into lightning bolts or whatever. I feel like Khorne would be opposed to using a ritual to kill people from afar though. The bonus strength power seems more appropriate for him.

*Power 4. I like this one too! Gives your unit "temporary hp" because you'll always put wounds on the zombified dudes first. Leaves you weirdly susceptible to morale on your own turn. It's neat. A -1 to hit would probably be too much. Consider Alaitoc flyer to-hit penalties on Alpha Legion cultists.
--P.S. Ah. Nevermind. You're removing the legion tactics from them. A simple -1 probably wouldn't break anything (it doesn't on AL cultists now), but I still think the Nurgle power is more interesting.

* Power 5. Baby Warp Time. I like it. It's a less risky and more versatile version of the first power. Once again, I say ditch the first power for something else. 5+++ would probably be fine but also more boring. Reactive power is reactive. It would also step on the Nurgle power's defense-oriented toes and the the toe-like talons of the Tzeentch power's 5+ invul.

* Power 6. Perfectly reasonable. Kind of boring. Again, I vote the Khorne power becomes the Tzeentch power and the strength power becomes the Khorne power.

Overall, these seem pretty resonable and very fluffy without adding too much complication to the game. Good stuff. A couple other nifty cultist powers that come to mind:

* Summoning Ritual - WC3; kill 3 models. A character within 6" may summon stuff as though it were the Movement phase even if they moved, and even if they already summoned this turn.

* Blood and Oil - WC3: Kill a model. A friendly vehicle within 6" recovers d3 wounds lost earlier in the battle.

* Disorientation- WC4: : Until the start of your next psychic phase, enemy units within 1" of the caster may not fall back.

My thinking being that those fit daemon/summoning themed armies (Word Bearers), heretech armies (Iron Warriors), and armies that want to obtain forward positions and hide in combat (Night Lords and arguably Alpha legion) respectively. These would be too much if cultist champions retain access to every power in the discipline but are probably reasonable enough on their own.

Shas'O'Ceris wrote:
I don't think chaos cultists feel chaotic enough. R&H has some options but generally feel too negative. Blackstone Fortress has some nice ideas with beefy 6pt beastmen (or hairy cheap assault marines?), self slaying psykers, tough mecha cultists and actual traitor soldiers. But, since they are kept pretty separate we have CSM cultists. I think they should feel more appropriate for their role.

The thing that feels off about them to me is that they are a coherent part of the Heretic Astartes legions and don't do anything significant related to their worship. Sorcerers are willing to buff these puny humans over their own battle-brothers, lords are willing to command these puny humans as part of their VotLW, and the marks on them from the god they worship (if any, seriously why is none an option?) do nothing unless commanded from a sorc or player. Plenty of people have recommended removing the heretic astertes and legion keyword, giving them a pass on detachment coherency. I agree but there will need to be some compensation for the total removal of synergy. Oh, and cap unit size at 20 already that cheese has gone moldy.

I recommend taking a page from the Thousand Sons/Grey Knights and giving the cultist champion 1 psychic power and 0 denies. Knows all powers from the Chaos Fanaticism discipline below (not smite). roll only 1d6 taking perils on unmodified 1
1) WC3 until the start of your next psychic phase this unit may shoot rapid fire and pistol weapons as if they were assault. Additionally, this unit does not suffer the -1 to hit penalty for advancing and shooting assault weapons.
2) WC3 until the start of your next psychic phase this unit gains +2 strength.
3) Requires mark of Khorne. WC3 destroy 3 models in this unit and target an enemy unit within 18". That unit is dealt one mortal wound. (yeah, a khorne power. I think he'd be ok with this one though).
4) Requires mark of Nurgle. WC3 return up to 3 slain models to this unit. At the beginning of your next psychic phase all models returned this way flee. alternatively -1 to be hit
5) Requires mark of Slaanesh. WC3 this unit may immediately move 4 inches. (looks redundant to #1 but can be helpful for charging or making up for a bad advance). alternatively 5+++
6) Requires mark of Tzeench. WC 3 Until the start of your next psychic phase this unit gains a 5+ invulnerable save.

Do these powers feel diverse and balanced enough to be fun to play with? Does a group of 10-20 rebels united by a champion that can call on a warp fueled power in the heat of battle feel chaos culty? Would this change in unit strength warrant a reduction back to 4ppm or make it more worthy of the current 5ppm? My goal was a more interesting experience including opponent interaction like SitW and denial, uncertainty but not as much punishment as R&H. Also to have sufficiently devoted cultists that the astartes would be ok with their existence but not total kinship.

May i steal some of your psychik powers for my r&H rewrite?

Not Online!!! wrote:

May i steal some of your psychik powers for my r&H rewrite?

Please do.

I really like the summoning ritual.

Shas'O'Ceris wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

May i steal some of your psychik powers for my r&H rewrite?

Please do.

I really like the summoning ritual.

Och that one will probably be added to the Archheretic.

Altough he will only be able to summon Assessors!