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Hey guys,

So I play Dark Angels because they are my favorite space marine chapter. I loved the lore, that's why I picked the army. However, I've been getting my ass whooped every time I play and although I don't mind losing, I would also like to win every once in a while. I figured that the best thing to do is to combine forces with the Astra Militarum. I feel my army needs numbers, cannon fodder if you will, plus I like the idea of guards and marines fighting together. So I was wondering: in a 2000 pts army - what are the absolute auto-includes and no-brainers when combining astartes and guards? I need some inspiration, hope you guys can help me out.

Lol, just take more IG units and no Space Marines if you try to mix IG and Marines. xD.

If you are taking DA only, take Azreal, and Darkshroud. That -1 to hit and 4++ is invaluable unless you run into mortal wound spam armies. Unfortunately which is not uncommon.

 Slegtvalk wrote:
Hey guys,

So I play Dark Angels because they are my favorite space marine chapter. I loved the lore, that's why I picked the army. However, I've been getting my ass whooped every time I play and although I don't mind losing, I would also like to win every once in a while. I figured that the best thing to do is to combine forces with the Astra Militarum. I feel my army needs numbers, cannon fodder if you will, plus I like the idea of guards and marines fighting together. So I was wondering: in a 2000 pts army - what are the absolute auto-includes and no-brainers when combining astartes and guards? I need some inspiration, hope you guys can help me out.

Depends how many points of Guard do you want to add in? How many detachments do you have available?

Obviously you wanna start with the Loyal 32 as a base, so 2 company commanders and 3 10 man infantry squads for 180 points. You could add in a Tank Commander w/ Heavy Bolters as well for another 188 points, and 2 mortar HWS for 66 more points, for a total of 434 pts. If you wanna spend some more points, maybe swap one of the Company Commanders for a second tank commander, and take a pair of Platoon commanders as Elites to make up for the loss of orders at 632 pts.

Basically, Company Commanders, Tank Commanders, Infantry, and Heavy Weapons Teams are my "must haves" from Guard. Astropaths are also good. Bullgryns are useful too, but you already have expensive elite choices from your codex available.

First of all you should post your list. Then we can show you how to improve it.

This is what I had in mind. I usually fight Aeldari and Tyranids - hence the Culexus. I also fight Death Guard/Thousand Sons occacionally.

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Dark Angels) [80 PL, 8CP, 1323pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Battle-forged CP [3CP]

Detachment CP [5CP]

+ HQ +

Interrogator-Chaplain [5 PL, 85pts]: Plasma pistol

Master [5 PL, 78pts]: Bolt pistol, Power sword

+ Troops +

Scout Squad [8 PL, 130pts]
. 9x Scout (Sniper rifle): 9x Sniper rifle
. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Sniper rifle

Tactical Squad [9 PL, 162pts]: 7x Space Marine
. Heavy Weapon Marine: Plasma cannon
. Space Marine Sergeant: Chainsword, Plasma pistol
. Special Weapon Marine: Plasma gun

Tactical Squad [9 PL, 157pts]: 7x Space Marine
. Heavy Weapon Marine: Plasma cannon
. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Chainsword
. Special Weapon Marine: Plasma gun

Tactical Squad [9 PL, 157pts]: 7x Space Marine
. Heavy Weapon Marine: Plasma cannon
. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Chainsword
. Special Weapon Marine: Plasma gun

+ Elites +

Deathwing Terminators [13 PL, 185pts]
. Deathwing Sergeant: Storm Bolter & Power Sword
. Deathwing Terminator: Power fist, Storm bolter
. Deathwing Terminator: Power fist, Storm bolter
. Deathwing Terminator: Power fist, Storm bolter
. Deathwing Terminator: Assault cannon, Power fist

Dreadnought [7 PL, 132pts]: Twin lascannon
. Dreadnought combat weapon w/Storm Bolter: Storm bolter

+ Fast Attack +

Ravenwing Bike Squad [5 PL, 73pts]
. Ravenwing Biker: Bolt pistol
. . Space Marine bike: Twin boltgun
. Ravenwing Biker: Bolt pistol
. . Space Marine bike: Twin boltgun
. Ravenwing Sergeant: Power sword
. . Space Marine bike: Twin boltgun

Ravenwing Bike Squad [5 PL, 84pts]
. Ravenwing Biker: Bolt pistol, Plasma gun
. . Space Marine bike: Twin boltgun
. Ravenwing Biker: Bolt pistol
. . Space Marine bike: Twin boltgun
. Ravenwing Sergeant: Power sword
. . Space Marine bike: Twin boltgun

Ravenwing Bike Squad [5 PL, 80pts]
. Ravenwing Biker: Bolt pistol, Plasma gun
. . Space Marine bike: Twin boltgun
. Ravenwing Biker: Bolt pistol
. . Space Marine bike: Twin boltgun
. Ravenwing Sergeant: Chainsword
. . Space Marine bike: Twin boltgun

++ Auxiliary Support Detachment -1CP (Imperium - Officio Assassinorum) [5 PL, -1CP, 85pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Detachment CP [-1CP]

+ Elites +

Culexus Assassin [5 PL, 85pts]

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [42 PL, 590pts] ++

+ HQ +

Company Commander [2 PL, 30pts]: Chainsword, Laspistol

Lord Commissar [4 PL, 35pts]: Bolt pistol, Power sword

+ Troops +

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Guardsman
. Sergeant: Laspistol

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Guardsman
. Sergeant: Laspistol

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Guardsman
. Sergeant: Laspistol

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Guardsman
. Sergeant: Laspistol

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Guardsman
. Sergeant: Laspistol

+ Elites +

Ministorum Priest [2 PL, 35pts]: Laspistol

Tech-Priest Enginseer [2 PL, 30pts]

+ Heavy Support +

Basilisks [7 PL, 108pts]
. Basilisk: Heavy Bolter

Leman Russ Battle Tanks [10 PL, 152pts]
. Leman Russ Battle Tank: Battle Cannon, Heavy Bolter

++ Total: [127 PL, 7CP, 1998pts] ++

What format are you playing in? ITC? Games at your FLGS?

The kind of missions you play will determine the kind of army you want to bring.

I play friendly matches - usually with datacards determining the objectives and the victory points they generate on completion.

Dark angels are one of the most powerful space marines along with deathwatch on the table top right now.
Your easy win archetype:
Azrael + liutenant + banner ancient
Helblasters to kill everything and intercessors/scouts/tacticals to screen them
Than you have some extra units for support or to cover up other areas like shroud, mages, aggressors, etc

You have a mighty core of helblasters that deal enormous damage with s9 ap4 damage3 shots re-rolling all hits and most wounds. They also have 4++ thanks to azrael and up to -3 to hit, but most often -1 or -2. As if it wasn't enough, they also get a 50-50 chance to shoot again after death.

 koooaei wrote:
Dark angels are one of the most powerful space marines along with deathwatch on the table top right now.
Your easy win archetype:
Azrael + liutenant + banner ancient
Helblasters to kill everything and intercessors/scouts/tacticals to screen them
Than you have some extra units for support or to cover up other areas like shroud, mages, aggressors, etc

You have a mighty core of helblasters that deal enormous damage with s9 ap4 damage3 shots re-rolling all hits and most wounds. They also have 4++ thanks to azrael and up to -3 to hit, but most often -1 or -2. As if it wasn't enough, they also get a 50-50 chance to shoot again after death.

This is valuable info. Where can I read more like this?

How would you be getting -3 to hit exactly? The rest of that info can be read on 1d4chan tactics or the dakkadakka dark angels tactics thread.

 Slegtvalk wrote:
I play friendly matches - usually with datacards determining the objectives and the victory points they generate on completion.

Look through each of the cards that you draw in games and ask "do I have a tool in my list that can do this?"

Here are some other general tips.

It's Not Always The List
You can grab a netlist and still lose. Don't always look to tweaking your list as the ultimate answer. Often, if you have a good list, just playing it and mastering the units you have will take you further than swapping out for the biggest shiny.

OK, Maybe It's Your List
In a game with as many moving parts as 40k, not every unit is balanced. 17 point Intecessors with bolter discipline are just better than TAC marines. Scouts are just better than TACs. The goal is to find the units that are more effective, and to build the better combos. With DA, for example, lieutenants provide more of a boost than captains as you already reroll 1s to hit when you stand still...

You Learn More From Losing
After each game, you get a chance to reflect on what you did. Ask your opponent "If you were playing my list, what would you have done differently". People generally know the counters to their own list, and most people will be happy to tell you.
Last weekend I brought a new Renegade Knights list to an ITC event and went 0-3. I'm a good player, and don't feel bad about losing. It was a new army and I was learning about the current meta. In each game I asked a lot of questions and learned how I could win next time.

Learn Your Opponent's Army
It's important to know what your opponent can do. Anytime you are saying to yourself "Wow, I did not know they could do that", you are in a bad spot.
There are one of two ways to learn this. First, play games. Second, read the codex's. Third, watch games played on youtube.

Work on Your Game
Before each game, go over those objectives and think "how can I earn those points". With malestrom it's hard because the options vary so greatly.
I cannot stress this enough. 40k is not just about killing your opponent's pieces. It's about movement, and working probabilities into your favor.

A couple of good Dark Angel elements (I'd prob choose one to add to the IG)

1. Hellblasters, Azrael etc. (As others have expained above)
2. Ravenwing speeder characters, Dark Talons, Dark Shroud - fly around throwing out a lot of shots and fairly resilient at -1 or -2 to hit, jink saves and character protection.

Though you see a lot of top players (not me) doing well with all sorts of lists so the advice from labmouse42 is pretty sound as a general approach to improving your 40k game. I would also throw in podcasts as a way to improve - there are a bunch that analyse lists and tournaments, interview top players, discuss general 40k tactics, etc I'm particularly enjoying 'In the Finest Hour' at the moment.

Good luck!

I suggest to get rid of the TAC Marines in your lists, they're much too frail. The most point-efficient option is to go Scouts but Intercessors have done wonders for some people and for me too, they don't even require support as you just have to deploy them somewhere and get free rerolls when stationnary. With the upcoming Beta Bolter rule they're going to be great when shooting Rapid Fire even beyond 15".

The Interrogator-Chaplain is supposed to support the Terminators I reckon ? If so giving him a Jump Pack or Terminator Armour to allow him to DS with his mates would be valuable. Also, consider running your Terminators as Tartaros rules-wise: they cost the same, move faster, and in my opinion the Reaper Autocannon is better thanks to the S7 that can annoy T7. You also get free frag bombs for 1/5 man if I recall correctly.

As for the RW replacing the bolt pistols with chainswords might be the better option, you can't shoot the pistols if you're firing the twin boltguns and it's better to swing more attacks on the charge than wait a turn to shoot your pistols in CC.

Scouts are not more point efficient than tacs or intercessors. They are just cheapest in absolute points.

Sure, I don't mean they kill more stuff, but for their points they're more useful with their infiltration to deny DS. They're also one of the only Snipers in the SM range so it's nice given all these new CA missions that work around characters.

Thank you all for your replies!

After koooaei's remark I decided not to pursue Imperial Guard, but to try again with Dark Angels and try harder. I bought a Hellblaster squad and a Banner Ancient, so I will definetly be testing that soon. As for Azrael - I'm going to proxy him using the master from the Dark Vengeance box set. I just don't like the current Azrael model and I'm hoping it won't be around for much longer. Aaranis, your remark about the interregator-chaplain was very good. During the battle he fought a group of genestealers by himself and that did not work out well for him. I ordered te chaplain in terminator armor so he can deep strike with the other termies. Hopefully he will prove his worth this time around. Unfortunately I can't replace all my tactical marines in one swoop. But I will buy more intercessors.
About primaris in general I have one more question: I usually sport full squads (i.e. 10 man tact squads). However, it seems to me that 5 man squads are much easier when playing primaris - is that correct?

Next time my Dark Angels are fielded on the table top it will be against Death Guard, 2500 pts. Here's what I had in mind:

---------------------------------------------------

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Dark Angels) [76 PL, 8CP, 1285pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Battle-forged CP [3CP]

Detachment CP [5CP]

+ HQ +

Azrael [9 PL, 180pts]

Interrogator-Chaplain in Terminator Armor [6 PL, 102pts]: Storm bolter

+ Troops +

Scout Squad [8 PL, 130pts]
. 9x Scout (Sniper rifle): 9x Sniper rifle
. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Sniper rifle

Tactical Squad [9 PL, 162pts]: 7x Space Marine
. Heavy Weapon Marine: Plasma cannon
. Space Marine Sergeant: Chainsword, Plasma pistol
. Special Weapon Marine: Plasma gun

Tactical Squad [9 PL, 157pts]: 7x Space Marine
. Heavy Weapon Marine: Plasma cannon
. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Chainsword
. Special Weapon Marine: Plasma gun

+ Elites +

Deathwing Terminators [13 PL, 185pts]
. Deathwing Sergeant: Storm Bolter & Power Sword
. Deathwing Terminator: Power fist, Storm bolter
. Deathwing Terminator: Power fist, Storm bolter
. Deathwing Terminator: Power fist, Storm bolter
. Deathwing Terminator: Assault cannon, Power fist

Dreadnought [7 PL, 132pts]: Twin lascannon
. Dreadnought combat weapon w/Storm Bolter: Storm bolter

+ Fast Attack +

Ravenwing Bike Squad [5 PL, 73pts]
. Ravenwing Biker: Bolt pistol
. . Space Marine bike: Twin boltgun
. Ravenwing Biker: Bolt pistol
. . Space Marine bike: Twin boltgun
. Ravenwing Sergeant: Power sword
. . Space Marine bike: Twin boltgun

Ravenwing Bike Squad [5 PL, 84pts]
. Ravenwing Biker: Bolt pistol, Plasma gun
. . Space Marine bike: Twin boltgun
. Ravenwing Biker: Bolt pistol
. . Space Marine bike: Twin boltgun
. Ravenwing Sergeant: Power sword
. . Space Marine bike: Twin boltgun

Ravenwing Bike Squad [5 PL, 80pts]
. Ravenwing Biker: Bolt pistol, Plasma gun
. . Space Marine bike: Twin boltgun
. Ravenwing Biker: Bolt pistol
. . Space Marine bike: Twin boltgun
. Ravenwing Sergeant: Chainsword
. . Space Marine bike: Twin boltgun

--------------------------------------

++ Auxiliary Support Detachment -1CP (Imperium - Officio Assassinorum) [5 PL, -1CP, 85pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Detachment CP [-1CP]

+ Elites +

Culexus Assassin [5 PL, 85pts]

-------------------------------------------------------

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Dark Angels) [63 PL, 1097pts] ++

+ HQ +

Librarian [7 PL, 96pts]: Force sword

Primaris Lieutenants [5 PL, 79pts]
. Primaris Lieutenant: Plasma pistol, Power sword

+ Troops +

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 85pts]: Bolt rifles, 4x Intercessor, Intercessor Sergeant

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 85pts]: Bolt rifles, 4x Intercessor, Intercessor Sergeant

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 85pts]: Bolt rifles, 4x Intercessor, Intercessor Sergeant

+ Elites +

Aggressor Squad [6 PL, 111pts]: 2x Aggressor, Aggressor Sergeant, Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher

Primaris Ancient [4 PL, 69pts]

Redemptor Dreadnought [10 PL, 157pts]: Heavy flamer, Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon
. Fragstorm Grenade Launchers: 2x Fragstorm Grenade Launcher

+ Heavy Support +

Hellblaster Squad [8 PL, 165pts]: 4x Hellblaster, Plasma incinerators
. Hellblaster Sergeant: Bolt pistol

Hellblaster Squad [8 PL, 165pts]: 4x Hellblaster, Plasma incinerators
. Hellblaster Sergeant: Bolt pistol

++ Total: [144 PL, 7CP, 2467pts] ++

Most folks use Minimum Sized Units (MSUs), but Dark Angels can actually benefit from larger squads. If you are playing Kill Points big squads can be a benefit. Grim Resolve limits morale damage, and Stratagems like Weapons From the Dark Age work great on big squads of Hellblasters. I still tend to run MSU Intercessors.

Hey Tango,

Tnx for ur feedback. This is what I did with it:

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Dark Angels) [63 PL, 1102pts] ++

+ HQ +

Primaris Librarian [7 PL, 101pts]: Force sword

Primaris Lieutenants [5 PL, 79pts]
. Primaris Lieutenant: Plasma pistol, Power sword

+ Troops +

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 85pts]: Bolt rifles, 4x Intercessor, Intercessor Sergeant

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 85pts]: Bolt rifles, 4x Intercessor, Intercessor Sergeant

Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 85pts]: Bolt rifles, 4x Intercessor, Intercessor Sergeant

+ Elites +

Aggressor Squad [6 PL, 111pts]: 2x Aggressor, Aggressor Sergeant, Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher

Primaris Ancient [4 PL, 69pts]

Redemptor Dreadnought [10 PL, 157pts]: Heavy flamer, Heavy Onslaught Gatling Cannon
. Fragstorm Grenade Launchers: 2x Fragstorm Grenade Launcher

+ Heavy Support +

Hellblaster Squad [8 PL, 165pts]: 4x Hellblaster, Plasma incinerators
. Hellblaster Sergeant: Bolt pistol

Hellblaster Squad [8 PL, 165pts]: 4x Hellblaster, Plasma incinerators
. Hellblaster Sergeant: Bolt pistol

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Dark Angels) [80 PL, 1291pts] ++

+ HQ +

Azrael [9 PL, 180pts]

Interrogator-Chaplain in Terminator Armor [6 PL, 102pts]: Storm bolter

+ Troops +

Scout Squad [4 PL, 65pts]
. 4x Scout (Sniper rifle): 4x Sniper rifle
. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Sniper rifle

Scout Squad [4 PL, 65pts]
. 4x Scout (Sniper rifle): 4x Sniper rifle
. Scout Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Sniper rifle

Tactical Squad [5 PL, 70pts]: 4x Space Marine
. Space Marine Sergeant: Chainsword, Plasma pistol

Tactical Squad [5 PL, 65pts]: 4x Space Marine
. Space Marine Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Chainsword

+ Elites +

Deathwing Knights [12 PL, 190pts]: Watcher in the Dark
. 4x Deathwing Knight: 4x Storm shield
. Knight Master: Storm shield

Deathwing Terminators [13 PL, 185pts]
. Deathwing Sergeant: Storm Bolter & Power Sword
. Deathwing Terminator: Power fist, Storm bolter
. Deathwing Terminator: Power fist, Storm bolter
. Deathwing Terminator: Power fist, Storm bolter
. Deathwing Terminator: Assault cannon, Power fist

Dreadnought [7 PL, 132pts]: Twin lascannon
. Dreadnought combat weapon w/Storm Bolter: Storm bolter

+ Fast Attack +

Ravenwing Bike Squad [5 PL, 84pts]
. Ravenwing Biker: Bolt pistol, Plasma gun
. . Space Marine bike: Twin boltgun
. Ravenwing Biker: Bolt pistol
. . Space Marine bike: Twin boltgun
. Ravenwing Sergeant: Power sword
. . Space Marine bike: Twin boltgun

Ravenwing Bike Squad [5 PL, 80pts]
. Ravenwing Biker: Bolt pistol, Plasma gun
. . Space Marine bike: Twin boltgun
. Ravenwing Biker: Bolt pistol
. . Space Marine bike: Twin boltgun
. Ravenwing Sergeant: Chainsword
. . Space Marine bike: Twin boltgun

Ravenwing Bike Squad [5 PL, 73pts]
. Ravenwing Biker: Bolt pistol
. . Space Marine bike: Twin boltgun
. Ravenwing Biker: Bolt pistol
. . Space Marine bike: Twin boltgun
. Ravenwing Sergeant: Power sword
. . Space Marine bike: Twin boltgun

++ Auxiliary Support Detachment -1CP (Imperium - Officio Assassinorum) [5 PL, 80pts] ++

+ Elites +

Vindicare Assassin [5 PL, 80pts]

++ Total: [148 PL, 2473pts] ++

Vindicare assassin in 85, when the new white dwarf is released tomorrow.

 p5freak wrote:
Vindicare assassin in 85, when the new white dwarf is released tomorrow.

Yeah, I'm not sure what the implications of the changes will be ... I pay 1 CP to include an assassin in my army now because of Auxiliary Support Detachment ... is that staying?

It gets better. You pay 1 CP during deployment, and you can freely choose whatever assassin you want to have, after seeing what your opponent has. But you need to pay reinforcement points for it. Its not part of a detachment. Which means you can have 3 detachments (if you play with a detachment limit) and the assassin.

Just to clarify… The assassin doesn't take up a vanguard detachment?

Snowcloak wrote:
Just to clarify… The assassin doesn't take up a vanguard detachment?

This is an old thread, before the new assassin rules. No need to dig it back up.