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Hi all,

First time posting here, since I find myself unable to make up my mind about my next purchase.

I'm just about to sell my Iron Warriors (they've failed me faaar too many times now) which I expect to net about £200 for. I've also got a pack of Traitor Knights who are rather more effective, and who need a suitable ranged support/centrepiece unit.

I've seen old threads comparing a Knight Porphyrion to a Warhound Titan, and generally the consensus seemed to be towards the Knight for effectiveness for points and money, with some leaning towards buying a Warhound simply for the prestige of owning a Titan. However, I've recently spoken to someone in my area who is actually looking to sell an old Warhound, with the going price at £250 (some damage, but nothing I can't fix).

Now, that leaves me wondering. Is the Knight Porphyrion still the better option at almost £100 more? I could just about suck it up and go for it with the Iron Warriors money (I wouldn't consider buying either model without it) but is the difference close enough that it would be better to just go for the Titan while the option is still open?

If it helps, the lucky winner will join the following collection:

1x Knight Warden with stubber (and one of each carapace weapon option
2x Knights (magnetised, with option to play as any type) and one of each carapace weapon option)
2 Warglaives (stubbers and meltaguns interchangeable)
2x Helverins (stubbers and meltaguns interchangeable)

Using the above models minus one Knight or more, I can handily fit the Titan into a 3,000pt list and the Knight into a 2,500pt list.

The Knight is significantly better. The Knight's attack does a flat 6 damage, the Warhound does an average of 7 ( 14 vs other Titanic though) with Turbo Lasers. They both have the same number of shots and same BS. The Knight's weapons have a little less strength, so you're wounding T8 on 3+ instead of 2+. The Knight can get a 3++ save though, the Warhound has a degrading 4++ that it can take vs even mortal wounds though.

So the Warhound is a bit better.... but not 2000 points vs 836 points better. The Acastus is still going to vaporize most targets, the Warhound is just gonna overkill them.

Oh, the Warhound is 2,000 points? Other guy told me it was 1,500. Yeah, that makes it a good bit harder to work into a rounded list then.

Wow, titans are that expensive now? Last I remember Warhounds were 750 or so.

...Somehow I suspect the warlord isn't in the 3000s anymore. :(

Yea, it's 2000 points. One dude brought it to the LVO, it was his whole army. I'm pretty sure it was a joke. He went 0-6.

It's just not playable at that points cost. It's T9, 35 wounds, with a 3+ armor save and 4++ void shields that degrade. It's just not survivable and can't kill enough to ever make back it's points.

If they want to make it playable, they'd need to drop the points cost by half.

It's ironic that 8th is so much more deadly than 7th was, but somehow the real heavy hitters from before - the titans - seem to be kinda limp now.

 Ashiraya wrote:
It's ironic that 8th is so much more deadly than 7th was, but somehow the real heavy hitters from before - the titans - seem to be kinda limp now.

They did it as an alternative to removing the models from the game entirely. Like the Thunderhawk... it's like 1500 points now. T9, 30W, 3+ Flyer, but it has 1/4 the firepower of the warhound, only D3 turbo laser shots. It is mathematically impossible for it to ever make it's points back in 6 turns even if you roll nothing but 6's unless you're fighting a pure Knights list, and even then it's doubtful unless he fails like all his saves. It's the way they remove models from the game, without technically removing them.

Get the Porphyrion. It will see much more table time, and be much more usable.

Titans need a complete rework in this game.

 Horst wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
It's ironic that 8th is so much more deadly than 7th was, but somehow the real heavy hitters from before - the titans - seem to be kinda limp now.

They did it as an alternative to removing the models from the game entirely. Like the Thunderhawk... it's like 1500 points now. T9, 30W, 3+ Flyer, but it has 1/4 the firepower of the warhound, only D3 turbo laser shots. It is mathematically impossible for it to ever make it's points back in 6 turns even if you roll nothing but 6's unless you're fighting a pure Knights list, and even then it's doubtful unless he fails like all his saves. It's the way they remove models from the game, without technically removing them.

Seems strange that they would want to remove these models in the first place. If anything I always thought that Thundarhawks should be GW models rather than Forgeworld, considering how much more commonly they appear in the lore.

Well, this seems fairly decisive. Guess I'll have to apologise to my wallet later once the Knight Porphyrion is on the table and doing its work!

The knight is undoubtedly better in game but the war hound is a titan!

Also its point have been hugely increased but its power level has not meaning that in games that use PL (mainly apoc) hes still quite usable.

Personally I'd go for the titan and use the spare money to pick up a castellan for your knight army as well

Large Forgeworld models received a massive points hike simply to make sure they didn't appear in tournaments. Note that the Power Level remains unchanged etc. (so they remain original price for narrative games, etc.) It was just a decision by GW to ensure that Titans etc. were only taken in narrative or thematic games/events.

If you play points, discuss with your opponent whether they're interested in trying the Titans etc. at the older lower points cost if that's something that interests you.

 WisdomLS wrote:
The knight is undoubtedly better in game but the war hound is a titan!

Also its point have been hugely increased but its power level has not meaning that in games that use PL (mainly apoc) hes still quite usable.

Personally I'd go for the titan and use the spare money to pick up a castellan for your knight army as well

That knight IS the size of a titan. Make my armor cast titan looks punny in comparison.
Also one of the few superheavy that feels pointed right (+1 T and cheaper RIS makes quite a difference compared to a castellan)

If the Porphyrion was cheaper (it's literally $500 USD) I'm sure it would be more popular.

go for the knight. as much as I like the Warhound, the knight looks freakin badass. As well as being better for the points. it should fit in nicely with the rest of your stuff.

Wait for the new acastus pattern with alt weapons, then choose which of the knights. Since you have IK already, this is the house relic granddaddy, the Warhound is a titan class, it would look out of place unless you have another, then perhaps a whole maniple. This way you have your IK house in order, perhaps a cerastus pattern later on.

In pure game terms any titan is basically "I lose automatically". Costing at 2000 he's your entire army. Your opponent doesn't even have to TOUCH it to win. He wins automatically. Just take objectives, grap points, win. Trying to kill titan is just waste of time rolling dice with no effect to the game...

And things just go downhill with other titans...Warlord at 6000 will lose vs 6000 pts army even harder.

Only time titans don't auto lose is when your armies as so big compared to board YOU CANNOT FIT MORE regular stuff. And with titan rules breaking 40k scale it means in game where both sides have titans the first player will vaporize enemy titans and have big point advantage. If only one side has titans then that side loses...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elbows wrote:
Large Forgeworld models received a massive points hike simply to make sure they didn't appear in tournaments. Note that the Power Level remains unchanged etc. (so they remain original price for narrative games, etc.) It was just a decision by GW to ensure that Titans etc. were only taken in narrative or thematic games/events.

If you play points, discuss with your opponent whether they're interested in trying the Titans etc. at the older lower points cost if that's something that interests you.

Nope. There's no excuse balance wise for that price. They already didn't show because they were auto lose already.

What it was for was directing sales from resin(less profitable) to plastic(more profitable) from gamers. GW wants you to spend same money to plastic for more £££££££ in their pockets.

Titans should only be played in Power Level Apocalypse games.

The points cost on any titan makes sure that they'll only ever show up in apocalypse and casual PL games. I wouldn't be surprised if GW didn't want to give them matched play points costs at all, but probably realised that there would be less grumbling just to give them an utterly absurd over-the-top price. The minimum of 2k for all titans stops you from having any chance at all in a regular-sized matched play game.

Amusingly enough, hiking the Eldar Revenant to 2k points means that it's an entire 2k army for £220. A literal Forge World Titan is one of the cheapest 2k armies you can buy.

Anyway, on topic. My thoughts on the Warhound:
I don't think it's a great design, but strangely it's such an iconic part of 40k and been around for so long that I've grown rather fond of it (the same goes for the Reaver for that matter). It's not something you would ever use in any sort of regular game, but it comes with the extra prestige/cool factor of owning an actual Titan. Even though the knight is about the same size, it's just not a Titan. It's something you buy to have, to build/paint/display and throw on the table once in a while for a laugh. Which is actually one of the reasons I wouldn't buy a secondhand Warhound - for me the main point of owning one is to lovingly build and paint it myself and so I would want one brand new, even though it costs considerably more. Be warned, it may start you on the slippery slope of blowing all your cash on your own Titan Maniple. It doesn't fit as well with the knights you already have, but if you've got a homebrew knight house you could always fluff them to be sworn to the service of a Titan Legion.

The Porphyrion:
I think it's a better model than the Warhound, and because it's much newer it's got a lot of nice, crisp detail. However it's lacking that 'iconic' status and whatever way you look at it it's not a true Titan so it lacks that mysterious Titan cool factor. Brand new trumps second hand for me, so that's a plus, and it works better with your existing knight house because it just fits right in. It may not be an optimal game choice, but at least it's at a level where you can take one and it's half your army, rather than taking the one model and not having anything else. So you'll have more opportunity and reason to actually include it in games.

Between those two, Porphyrion all the way. The Warhound is an older model design without much detail and you will probably never actually use it in a game.

But! I’d personally get a Cerastus Knight. Atropos would be my pick but that’s just me. They’re taller than Questoris, so they really stand out. The models are also capable of great dynamic poses, and they seem to actually be pretty decent for their in game points.

The matched play points on all the titans went up to kick them out of matched play. The powerlevel cost hasn't changed though and is pretty decent for what you get in narrative games.

Your mate's trying to rip you off wanting £250 ($450) the average price for a legit good condition second hand Warhound is $300