Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So what happens when I have a salamanders Devastator squad, with all the models in range for Astartes banner and the Relic banner, and they get shot.

For the purposes of this arrangement we will say the squad is 6 models: 1 cherub, a sergeant, two lascannons, a Heavy bolter, and a missile launcher.

My opponent has a unit of "termagaunts" That is within 1" of only the the cherubim.


What happens and why?

It's pretty simple. The Cherub is part of the unit so if enemy units are within 1" of your unit - they can't shoot you and you can't shoot them. So the only way the devs are going to take damage is from close combat attacks or psychic powers. In this case if a dev dies - it can ether make a single close combat attack or shoot with 1 weapon. The banners rules do not not allow you to ignore the basic rules for shooting though - so you can only make close combat attacks.

Okay, so do i get salamander rerolls? And since the attacks are or resolved individually, What happens when i take a wound on the cherub, and then take the following wound on say the lascannon guy.

Would I in that case be able to shoot him? I mean he's not in combat anymore.

Assuming i take the wounds during the opponents shooting phase, will i be able to signum the shot, if i can shoot with him?

The attacks are resolved simultaneously on a unit by unit basis - all of the wounds are technically happening at the same time. So you can't just kill the units locked in CC to then shoot with the ones that aren't in combat. You will get salamander rerolls on these attacks though.

They do not happen at the same time. You roll the saves and do casualties individually. It's why you can't have one guy with a storm shield block indefinitely. you have the 3++ until you fail a save and move on to another model.

Rolling them all at the same time is simply fast dice rolling and done for convenience rather then what is actually happening.

Isn't the model the one that is shooting in this scenario? Not the unit so, I don't get salamander rerolls? Or am I mistaken and is each instance of the banner going off an example of the unit firing.

Rakdarian wrote:
Okay, so do i get salamander rerolls? And since the attacks are or resolved individually, What happens when i take a wound on the cherub, and then take the following wound on say the lascannon guy.

Would I in that case be able to shoot him? I mean he's not in combat anymore.

Assuming i take the wounds during the opponents shooting phase, will i be able to signum the shot, if i can shoot with him?

Even if your unit is more than 1" away from enemy models after removing casualties it is still in melee, therefore you cant shoot, unless you have a pistol.

5. Resolve Close Combat Attacks
Close combat attacks can be made one at a time, or in
some cases you can roll the dice for a number of attacks
together. The attack sequence for making close combat
attacks is identical to that used for shooting attacks
except you use the model’s Weapon Skill characteristic
instead of its Ballistic Skill to make hit rolls.

Q: Can you wound models in a target unit that
are not visible to the firer or that are beyond its
maximum range?
A: Yes.
When resolving a shooting attack, only one model in the target
unit needs to be visible and within range of the firing model
in order to make the attack. Your opponent can allocate any
resulting wounds to any unwounded models in the target unit
that they choose, even those that are not visible or within range
of the attack.

This also applies to the fight phase, because resolve close combat attacks says so. You cant pull your unit of of melee during the fight phase by removing casualties in a way that you are more than 1" away.

Master Artisans: You can re-roll a single failed hit roll and a single failed wound roll made for SALAMANDERS unit with this tactic each time it shoots or fights.

This says every time the unit shoots or fights. Every time a model dies, and it can attack because of the banner, it gets to re-roll a failed and wound roll. RAW, this rule doesnt work, because the unit doesnt attack, models do.

If you have no models within 1” of the enemy you can absolutely shoot. There is no ‘memory state’ with the rules. You have models within 1” or you don’t. Rules for applying casualties are different to rules for where units physically are. I find your post has some useful stuff but that opening is pure misleading. “In melee” is not a rules term, it’s a colloquial descriptor, and you’re misapplying it.

So let’s say the enemy does all their attacks. You start allocating Wounds and some guys die. Once the unit no longer has models within 1” they’re free to shoot via Ancient rules, because they’re not within 1” of the enemy.

You don't get salamander re-rolls because they only apply when the UNIT shoots, etc. Not individual models.

The model is part of a unit. It gets access to the abilities of that unit. This is common sense.

 Xenomancers wrote:
The model is part of a unit. It gets access to the abilities of that unit. This is common sense.

It's also common sense that flamers shouldn't be able to automatically hit hypersonic aircraft, nor for Plasma Cannons to be scared of the dark and explode more at night, but here we are.

The rule explicitly states it only grants the re-rolls when the unit shoots, fights, etc. A single model firing is not the unit.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
The model is part of a unit. It gets access to the abilities of that unit. This is common sense.

It's also common sense that flamers shouldn't be able to automatically hit hypersonic aircraft, nor for Plasma Cannons to be scared of the dark and explode more at night, but here we are.

The rule explicitly states it only grants the re-rolls when the unit shoots, fights, etc. A single model firing is not the unit.

But a model cannot shoot unless the unit is elected/selected to shoot, no?

So your argument is models that shoot as a part of resolving the effect of the banner is not eligible for salamanders CT?

 skchsan wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
The model is part of a unit. It gets access to the abilities of that unit. This is common sense.

It's also common sense that flamers shouldn't be able to automatically hit hypersonic aircraft, nor for Plasma Cannons to be scared of the dark and explode more at night, but here we are.

The rule explicitly states it only grants the re-rolls when the unit shoots, fights, etc. A single model firing is not the unit.

But a model cannot shoot unless the unit is elected/selected to shoot, no?

So your argument is models that shoot as a part of resolving the effect of the banner is not eligible for salamanders CT?

The banner makes an exception to that rule, that's the whole point of the banner.

“
Even if your unit is more than 1" away from enemy models after removing casualties it is still in melee, therefore you cant shoot, unless you have a pistol. ”

If this is the case wouldn’t that mean you are permanently in combat once a melee unit got there? As then there would be nothing saying they are outside of an inch of they are considered within an inch for this?

“
This also applies to the fight phase, because resolve close combat attacks says so. You cant pull your unit of of melee during the fight phase by removing casualties in a way that you are more than 1" away.”

I don’t see anything that suggests I can’t pull casualties to the point the unit is out of of combat. I’m not suggested I don’t have to resolve wounds after they are out of combat has those still have to be allocated and nothing is saying they suddenly don’t resolve.

“
This says every time the unit shoots or fights. Every time a model dies, and it can attack because of the banner, it gets to re-roll a failed and wound roll. RAW, this rule doesnt work, because the unit doesnt attack, models do.”

Everything prior to RAW sounds like a house rule.

“If you have no models within 1” of the enemy you can absolutely shoot. There is no ‘memory state’ with the rules. You have models within 1” or you don’t. Rules for applying casualties are different to rules for where units physically are. I find your post has some useful stuff but that opening is pure misleading. “In melee” is not a rules term, it’s a colloquial descriptor, and you’re misapplying it. “

This makes sense to me.

“You don't get salamander re-rolls because they only apply when the UNIT shoots, etc. Not individual models.”

Wouldn’t that mean that I never get to do salamander rerolls as it’s models that do the actual fighting not units?


“The model is part of a unit. It gets access to the abilities of that unit. This is common sense.”

First off, common sense is neither common nor sense. Secondly lots of things violate common sense in 40k. Like hand held flamethrowers being able to hit supersonic aircraft. Or aircraft blocking movement. Or a litany if other things

Rakdarian wrote:
“
Even if your unit is more than 1" away from enemy models after removing casualties it is still in melee, therefore you cant shoot, unless you have a pistol. ”

If this is the case wouldn’t that mean you are permanently in combat once a melee unit got there? As then there would be nothing saying they are outside of an inch of they are considered within an inch for this?

No. If you are within 1" of enemy models (or in melee) is checked in the fight phase. After removing casualties you never go back to check if you are still within 1" of enemy models. Just like in the shooting phase you dont check if you still can see enemy models, or if they are still within weapon range, after removing casualties.

Rakdarian wrote:
“
This also applies to the fight phase, because resolve close combat attacks says so. You cant pull your unit of of melee during the fight phase by removing casualties in a way that you are more than 1" away.”

I don’t see anything that suggests I can’t pull casualties to the point the unit is out of of combat. I’m not suggested I don’t have to resolve wounds after they are out of combat has those still have to be allocated and nothing is saying they suddenly don’t resolve.

You can pull casualties to the point when the unit is out of combat. It is out of combat when all enemy attacks are resolved, because you dont check again, during enemy attacks, if the unit is still within 1" of enemy models.

For the purposes of the Fight Phase, sure. But for an ‘interrupt shooting attack’ like the Ancient grants, why are you suggesting we measure where the unit *was* not where it is? There’s no rules basis for that. You measure distances as they are right now unless a rule says otherwise. There is no “in melee” or “locked in combat” state in the rules - only within 1” or not. It’s perfectly possible to lose bodies to now be more than 1” away, take a shot via Ancient ability on death, but continue to resolve remaining melee attacks for the attacking unit afterwards.

Ok, you convinced me. Yes, its possible to shoot via ancients ability, if the unit isnt within 1" of enemy models anymore.

No. If you are within 1" of enemy models (or in melee) is checked in the fight phase. After removing casualties you never go back to check if you are still within 1" of enemy models. Just like in the shooting phase you don't check if you still can see enemy models, or if they are still within weapon range, after removing casualties.

I'm not seeing where things are checked, would you mind citing the specific rule in the book?.

So your argument is models that shoot as a part of resolving the effect of the banner is not eligible for salamanders CT?

I'm actually not convinced that you ever get Salamander rerolls as units don't shoot. Models do, so its never in the scenario for "When the unit shoots or fights"

Wouldn't this mean the entire Space marine faction is unplayable since all of their aura abilities are worded like this?

And given that the restriction on shooting is on "Pick a unit to shoot in the shooting phase" I'm not convinced that it matters that the unit is in combat or not for the purposes of the banner. The only restriction on shooting after you pick a unit to shoot in the shooting phase is that you cant target enemy models that are within an inch of friendly models.

Which would mean that i could pull casualties on say the lascannon, and shoot with it even though there are enemy models within 1" of his unit, i just wouldn't be able to shoot at that unit. Thats quite the mindfuck