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Hey Guys,

Wondering if I have missed something here, as I was pretty tired last. when I noticed this.

By RAW is cult ambush (specifically the ambush part), effectively impossible during matched play?

The argument:

1. In the current 'reserves' rules, units cannot be set up during the first battle round.
2. The Cult ambush rule, markers 'must be revealed at the start of your movement phase', and 'any models that cannot be placed are destroyed'.
3. The rules for matched play are more specific than the rules for ambush, and therefore have priority.


Therefore Either you simply can't deploy these units because you can't deploy them when you're meant to, or because you can't deploy them, the models auto die.

Please correct me if I'm missing some key sentence that allows these units to ignore the matched play restrictions, but I can't see it.

As far as the game rules are concerned, you deploy your units when you place the blips; the opponent just can't see what they are. They aren't reinforcements because they are already 'on the table' (even though they are not literally on the table).

Even the rules that you have posted say that the units are 'revealed'. That is not the same as them arriving from reinforcements.

That I believe is most peoples assumption, but the rule doesn't state that the unit counts as being placed on the board, and the unit is not on the board which is the requirement for the 'reserves' rule, revealing is simply the term in the rules describing how the markers are resolved, and the markers themselves are specifically mentioned as not being units. Therefore there are no units placed, and therefore units held in ambush are 'reserves'.

Again, as much as I'm defending my position on this, i don't really have a horse in this race, so if someone can show me the part of the rules that I'm missing which states the ambushing units aren't 'reserves', then Im all on board, as this RAW interpretation, is almost certainly not RAI.

Email GW. AFAIK there hasn’t been a GSC FAQ yet so it might well make it in if enough people ask.

Until then, agree with your opponent how you’ll play it.

This doesn't look like "Am I missing something here?", more like "Look at this RAW interpretation I found that doesn't work! Hahah so edgy!"

The fact is while if you dissect RAW with the mindset of a lawyer then yes, potentially one of the most fundamental and unique things about this army doesn't work, but even that is disputable. You deploy the units at the start of the turn, just that they're represented by a blip instead of the actual models.

If you tried to pull this off against someone I can guarantee you'll be laughed out of the shop.

This blips create some weird interactions. For example, the other player can actually move onto them, blocking them for the actual unit placement. And yes, thats legal, right now.

 p5freak wrote:
This blips create some weird interactions. For example, the other player can actually move onto them, blocking them for the actual unit placement. And yes, thats legal, right now.

No, it isn’t.

If you have the first turn, you reveal all of your ambush markers at the start of your first Movement phase. If your opponent goes first, you instead reveal all of your ambush markers at the end of their first Movement phase, and they cannot move anywhere within 9″ of any ambush markers beforehand.

That’s from the WHC preview.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
This blips create some weird interactions. For example, the other player can actually move onto them, blocking them for the actual unit placement. And yes, thats legal, right now.

No, it isn’t.

Yes, it is. The rules say that if the opponent of the GSC player has first turn he cant move within 9" of these markers. But if the GSC player has first turn this rule dont apply. As a BA player i can move in the first battle round, before the first turn, with forlorn fury. And if the deployment zones are close enough together, and i roll high enough for the advance roll, i can move right onto the blips with my 15 model DC unit spread out 2" from model to model, blocking them for his unit placement, because he must place them more than 9" from enemy models. Actually he must place the first model within 1" of the blip, that would be possible, but he wouldnt be able to place the rest of the unit more than 9" away from enemy models, and within 6" of the first model.

Considering the most you can move with forlorn fury is 18", and the smallest gap between both players deployment zones is 18", you cannot even enter his deployment zone with it, so no you cannot land on his blips.

You could in theory get within a half inch away though.


It's a fringe case though, and the rules dont make any mention of it. So you either play it one of two ways:

1. You consider it as no models can get within 9" of a blip until the first movement phase is over.

2. GSC player has to use the strat to deep strike the unit that cannot be deployed because your now closer than 9" to his blip.

 p5freak wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
This blips create some weird interactions. For example, the other player can actually move onto them, blocking them for the actual unit placement. And yes, thats legal, right now.

No, it isn’t.

Yes, it is. The rules say that if the opponent of the GSC player has first turn he cant move within 9" of these markers. But if the GSC player has first turn this rule dont apply. As a BA player i can move in the first battle round, before the first turn, with forlorn fury. And if the deployment zones are close enough together, and i roll high enough for the advance roll, i can move right onto the blips with my 15 model DC unit spread out 2" from model to model, blocking them for his unit placement, because he must place them more than 9" from enemy models. Actually he must place the first model within 1" of the blip, that would be possible, but he wouldnt be able to place the rest of the unit more than 9" away from enemy models, and within 6" of the first model.

Oh I see, an oversight, great. Drop the FAQ line an email. Assuredly not intended.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Considering the most you can move with forlorn fury is 18", and the smallest gap between both players deployment zones is 18", you cannot even enter his deployment zone with it, so no you cannot land on his blips.

There are lots of deployment zone types, some even touch each other. Dont look at the BRB only.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Oh I see, an oversight, great. Drop the FAQ line an email. Assuredly not intended.

No, i wont. GW needs to be punished for not knowing their own rules. Somehow they hate BA, they screwed them up pretty big, with their rule changes. The only unit worth playing form the entire codex is captn slamguinius.

secretForge wrote:
Hey Guys,

Wondering if I have missed something here, as I was pretty tired last. when I noticed this.

By RAW is cult ambush (specifically the ambush part), effectively impossible during matched play?

The argument:

1. In the current 'reserves' rules, units cannot be set up during the first battle round.
2. The Cult ambush rule, markers 'must be revealed at the start of your movement phase', and 'any models that cannot be placed are destroyed'.
3. The rules for matched play are more specific than the rules for ambush, and therefore have priority.


Therefore Either you simply can't deploy these units because you can't deploy them when you're meant to, or because you can't deploy them, the models auto die.

Please correct me if I'm missing some key sentence that allows these units to ignore the matched play restrictions, but I can't see it.

Only Tactical Reserves cannot be set up first turn, all other forms of Reinforcements are unaffected (which is why summoning or DMC, etc.. work just fine first turn and post-3rd turn). It's also why units can disembark and emergency disembark 1st turn (and post-3rd turn) and aren't subject to the Tactical Reserves restrictions.

Since Cult Ambush isn't Tactical Reserves (though it may still count as Reinforcements), they are unaffected.

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Oh I see, an oversight, great. Drop the FAQ line an email. Assuredly not intended.

No, i wont. GW needs to be punished for not knowing their own rules. Somehow they hate BA, they screwed them up pretty big, with their rule changes. The only unit worth playing form the entire codex is captn slamguinius.

Oh... kaaaaay... not relevant or particularly any way to ‘punish GW’ but you do you.

 p5freak wrote:


No, i wont. GW needs to be punished for not knowing their own rules. Somehow they hate BA, they screwed them up pretty big, with their rule changes. The only unit worth playing form the entire codex is captn slamguinius.

Wait , just hold on a sec. You would fully try to be a jerk about this, because the rules that were given to you from GW are bad, therefore you pull this to your FLG's Buddies / Friends, in orther to punish GW how excactly?


Also Petty much?

Sunny Side Up wrote:

secretForge wrote:
Hey Guys,

Wondering if I have missed something here, as I was pretty tired last. when I noticed this.

By RAW is cult ambush (specifically the ambush part), effectively impossible during matched play?

The argument:

1. In the current 'reserves' rules, units cannot be set up during the first battle round.
2. The Cult ambush rule, markers 'must be revealed at the start of your movement phase', and 'any models that cannot be placed are destroyed'.
3. The rules for matched play are more specific than the rules for ambush, and therefore have priority.


Therefore Either you simply can't deploy these units because you can't deploy them when you're meant to, or because you can't deploy them, the models auto die.

Please correct me if I'm missing some key sentence that allows these units to ignore the matched play restrictions, but I can't see it.

Only Tactical Reserves cannot be set up first turn, all other forms of Reinforcements are unaffected (which is why summoning or DMC, etc.. work just fine first turn and post-3rd turn). It's also why units can disembark and emergency disembark 1st turn (and post-3rd turn) and aren't subject to the Tactical Reserves restrictions.

Since Cult Ambush isn't Tactical Reserves (though it may still count as Reinforcements), they are unaffected.

Yeah... but why isnt it tactical reserves? Here is the crux of the argument, I cant find anywhere that indicates it isnt (and from the definition of tactical reserves, cult ambush qualifies, so it would need some kind of rule stating it isnt).

And you won’t get one til the FAQ.

secretForge wrote:

Yeah... but why isnt it tactical reserves? Here is the crux of the argument, I cant find anywhere that indicates it isnt (and from the definition of tactical reserves, cult ambush qualifies, so it would need some kind of rule stating it isnt).

Why isn't a unit of Tac Marines in a Rhino tactical reserves?

The Ambush marker is just a way to mark a point on the battle field (and move that point), which is referenced in the later/delayed deployment of said unit (within 6").

A transport is just a way to mark a point on the battle field (and move that point), which is referenced in the later/delayed deployment of said unit (within 3").

 p5freak wrote:

No, i wont. GW needs to be punished for not knowing their own rules.

That is hilarious! Most ridiculous thing I've read here in a while, thanks for that I needed a laugh!

Not Online!!! wrote:

Wait , just hold on a sec. You would fully try to be a jerk about this, because the rules that were given to you from GW are bad, therefore you pull this to your FLG's Buddies / Friends, in orther to punish GW how excactly?

I am a jerk, and GW didnt do anything wrong ? Blame GW for screwing this up, not me. Players always exploit bad rules to their advantage.

 p5freak wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

Wait , just hold on a sec. You would fully try to be a jerk about this, because the rules that were given to you from GW are bad, therefore you pull this to your FLG's Buddies / Friends, in orther to punish GW how excactly?

I am a jerk, and GW didnt do anything wrong ? Blame GW for screwing this up, not me. Players always exploit bad rules to their advantage.

When you go as far as to not even mention the problem to them, intentionally and out of spite, yes. You are the jerk.

Leaving aside the bizarre notion of punishing GW by antagonising your opponents (who GW will never speak to), we had the same discussion about the Cult Ambush rules on the day of release. We figured that, RAW, it seems as though there's an argument to say you can't deploy more than half your army using Underground Ambush (or whatever the GSC Deep Strike is called) or Cult Ambush. We also agreed that didn't seem like the intent so we play it as units set up using the blips don't count towards your 50% limit.

I think there was a post from GW, possibly on their FB page to this effect. Obviously, that's not got the full weight of an FAQ or Errata behind it, but is probably good enough for most people. I fully expect the FAQ to clear this up but the best thing to do is probably e-mail GW to add to the pile of queries they've probably already got about this.

 p5freak wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
This blips create some weird interactions. For example, the other player can actually move onto them, blocking them for the actual unit placement. And yes, thats legal, right now.

No, it isn’t.

Yes, it is. The rules say that if the opponent of the GSC player has first turn he cant move within 9" of these markers. But if the GSC player has first turn this rule dont apply. As a BA player i can move in the first battle round, before the first turn, with forlorn fury. And if the deployment zones are close enough together, and i roll high enough for the advance roll, i can move right onto the blips with my 15 model DC unit spread out 2" from model to model, blocking them for his unit placement, because he must place them more than 9" from enemy models. Actually he must place the first model within 1" of the blip, that would be possible, but he wouldnt be able to place the rest of the unit more than 9" away from enemy models, and within 6" of the first model.

This is a completely fair assessment. Some of the Open War Deployment Zones do actually touch, so in theory if you had a bike squadron advance turn 1 you could completely envelope one of the Blips by maintaining a 9" circle around it and the only thing that could be deployed would be a single model / character.

Dick move? probably; legal by the rules? totally. Definitely not something I'd do in a friendly; at least no without warning the other player during deployment.

Slipspace wrote:
Leaving aside the bizarre notion of punishing GW by antagonising your opponents (who GW will never speak to), we had the same discussion about the Cult Ambush rules on the day of release. We figured that, RAW, it seems as though there's an argument to say you can't deploy more than half your army using Underground Ambush (or whatever the GSC Deep Strike is called) or Cult Ambush. We also agreed that didn't seem like the intent so we play it as units set up using the blips don't count towards your 50% limit.

I think there was a post from GW, possibly on their FB page to this effect. Obviously, that's not got the full weight of an FAQ or Errata behind it, but is probably good enough for most people. I fully expect the FAQ to clear this up but the best thing to do is probably e-mail GW to add to the pile of queries they've probably already got about this.

Yes and no.

The complication is, of course, that the 50% limit is a beta-rule and not really a part of the (finalised) matched-play rules. Warhammer World events, and things like that, don't tend to play beta-rules, even if ITC, ETC, etc.. tend to adopt them right away "as if" they were actual rules.

A problem between the GSC Codex rules and the fall-FAQ beta rules would essentially just be "something you might wanna give feedback on when "testing" the beta rules from the Fall FAQ, especially since the GSC Codex was almost certainly printed before the fall FAQ came out, given your average printing, shipping, distribution, etc.. times.