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I was thinking (yes, it happens sometimes ) about the fact that Codex: Adepta Sororitas will be out later this year and the fact that Codex: Grey Knights is in such a lamentable condition, and it occurs to me, that neither of these books should exist in this fashion. Instead, we should have three Codices: Ordo Xenos, Ordo Hereticus and Ordo Malleus. These books should list all of the units of their appropriate chambers millitant as well as all of the Imperial "Agents" that are commonly associated with each of those orders.

Is there something that would fit into an Imperial Agents book that wouldn't fit well into any of these books, or is there some other reason that "Agents" should be kept separate to the chambers militant, and given their own codex?

 Ginjitzu wrote:
I was thinking (yes, it happens sometimes ) about the fact that Codex: Adepta Sororitas will be out later this year and the fact that Codex: Grey Knights is in such a lamentable condition, and it occurs to me, that neither of these books should exist in this fashion. Instead, we should have three Codices: Ordo Xenos, Ordo Hereticus and Ordo Malleus. These books should list all of the units of their appropriate chambers millitant as well as all of the Imperial "Agents" that are commonly associated with each of those orders.

Is there something that would fit into an Imperial Agents book that wouldn't fit well into any of these books, or is there some other reason that "Agents" should be kept separate to the chambers militant, and given their own codex?

Yes there is one small and minute detail

GW's monetary plan. Mainly GW gains recurring revenue not from selling you miniatures, (let's be real, if you have f.e.30 marines most people wont buy standard marines) but rather via books.
All this does is lowering the ammount of reccurent sales.

 Ginjitzu wrote:

Is there something that would fit into an Imperial Agents book that wouldn't fit well into any of these books, or is there some other reason that "Agents" should be kept separate to the chambers militant, and given their own codex?

Imperial Assassins, for one. Rogue Traders, Navigators, Astropaths, Sisters of Silence, elements of the Ecclesiarchy (assuming that the Sisters of Battle book is specifically the Adepta Sororitas and not the Ecclesiarchy as a whole). Death Cults if they're considered separately from the Ecclesiarchy. Legion of the Damned. Units from the Adeptus Arbites, Imperial Navy, even Imperial auditors counting ammunition expenditure if you like. .

The Grey Knights are controlled by the Ordo Malleus. The Deathwatch are controlled by the Ordo Xenos (but not as tightly, it seems). The Adepta Sororitas are not controlled by the Ordo Hereticus, they're controlled by the Ecclesiarchy (although the Abbess of the Adepta Sororitas has on occasion been a High Lord in her own right). They just work with the Ordo Hereticus at times.

I'd say the following would work best for me:
Codex: Inquisition. <Ordo> would be the equivalent of <Chapter>, <Regiment>, etc. Give Grey Knights Ordo Malleus if they've not got it already to allow Inquisitors to join Grey Knight detachments. Likewise for Ordo Xenos and Deathwatch. Probably the same for Ordo Hereticus and Adepta Sororitas / Ecclesiarchy units.
Codex: Grey Knights
Codex: Deathwatch
Codex: Adepta Sororitas
Codex: Imperial Agents for all the rest. Allow some or all of these units to be included in detachments that also include an Inquisitor, gaining the relevant Ordo keyword.

I could accept combining the contents of Codex: Inquisition and Codex: Imperial Agents, but keep them as two separate army lists. I want to be able to include a Rogue Trader in my Astra Militarum list without having to dance around the rules for Inquisitors.

Not Online!!! wrote:
GW's monetary plan. Mainly GW gains recurring revenue not from selling you miniatures, (let's be real, if you have f.e.30 marines most people wont buy standard marines) but rather via books.
All this does is lowering the ammount of reccurent sales.

Uh they precisely get money from the miniatures. You have hundreds spend for miniatures for army. Then one or two books. Whee. Plastic profit margin is also lot bigger after initial expenses covered as plastic is essentially free.

He did say "recurring revenue"; I've had the same Space Marine army since 2014, but I could have bought Codex Space Marines three times since then. However, I think that the number of people who keep the same army but buy codex after codex is a fairly low proportion of the total; we're more likely to just keep playing the old edition altogether, at which point we're not customers any more.

 Ginjitzu wrote:
I was thinking (yes, it happens sometimes ) about the fact that Codex: Adepta Sororitas will be out later this year and the fact that Codex: Grey Knights is in such a lamentable condition, and it occurs to me, that neither of these books should exist in this fashion. Instead, we should have three Codices: Ordo Xenos, Ordo Hereticus and Ordo Malleus. These books should list all of the units of their appropriate chambers millitant as well as all of the Imperial "Agents" that are commonly associated with each of those orders.

Is there something that would fit into an Imperial Agents book that wouldn't fit well into any of these books, or is there some other reason that "Agents" should be kept separate to the chambers militant, and given their own codex?

Sisters arent ordo Hereticus, they just sometimes work with them.. they are their own idependent organization that hunts heretics.

I wish Xenos forces had books for such specific groups.

It used to be the case. We hade codex deamonhunter (ordo malleus) and codex witch hunter (Ordo Hereticus) back in 3rd ed. Sadly codex alien hunters was never added. The deathwatch had chapter approved rules. Those codexes included the branches of the inquisition as well as their chamber militant. The relevant agents of the Imperium where also included. With time the grey knights dumped the inquisition (for some strange reason) and became a mono faction. It went so far as to say they where not a part of the inquisition anymore. After that they got re-integrated in the inquisition in the lore at the very least.

It would be awesome if they consolidated all these factions under codex inquisition. Then give subfaction "ordo" keywords to appropriate units. Units like inquistitors or storm troopers would have all the ordo keywords so they could be included in any kind of ordo detatchment. Reduce codex amount so that we get more frequent faction updates.

 Blndmage wrote:
I wish Xenos forces had books for such specific groups.

There's a codex for Harlequins, so yeah, Xenos do.

Pleasestop wrote:

 Blndmage wrote:
I wish Xenos forces had books for such specific groups.

There's a codex for Harlequins, so yeah, Xenos do.

Tau? They should have tons of Xenos 'allies', especially Kroot.
Necrons? I dunno, I miss the OldCron lore, cults worshipping the C'tan, etc.
Orks? Orks have been know to work with anyone if it'll bring a good fight.

 Nerak wrote:
It used to be the case. We hade codex deamonhunter (ordo malleus) and codex witch hunter (Ordo Hereticus) back in 3rd ed. Sadly codex alien hunters was never added. The deathwatch had chapter approved rules. Those codexes included the branches of the inquisition as well as their chamber militant. The relevant agents of the Imperium where also included.

I used Codex Witch Hunters when I started SoB in 5th edition and would not wish that experience on any other player. It straight up sucked. The armory list was riddled with caveats because the Canoness could take this, the inquisitor could take that, the priest could join in if he did a handstand first and the optimal build involved noob inquisitor Acolytes running around with collars on sticks and power armor.

It was designed, first and foremost to be an ally codex that you'd use to build a few squads of helpers to attach to your real army, second to be a dumping ground for a very disperate range of models under one catalogue (SoB, Inquisition, storm troopers, all flavors of assassin, and land raiders(!)) to keep them just relevant enough that they could keep selling them for another week - and it served that purpose across three editions.

It wasn't good, it wasn't supported, it arguably didn't function, the codex itself had to outline how to ally your inquisitional war band with other armies and by 5e the terminology had drifted and people would argue you couldn't do it, you were the only army that could take a land raider that your troops couldn't charge out of; and it was proof positive, to a lot of people, that Sisters of Battle were on the verge of being squatted, and was cited as proof of such for years and years.

Inquisition belong as singular (or small group...ular) attachments to existing armies. The same way they're implementing assassins.

 Blndmage wrote:
I wish Xenos forces had books for such specific groups.

Agreed with this. Specifically, I think they should break out Aspect Warriors into their own Dex, something kind of like the Space Marine Dex.

 Captain Joystick wrote:

 Nerak wrote:
It used to be the case. We hade codex deamonhunter (ordo malleus) and codex witch hunter (Ordo Hereticus) back in 3rd ed. Sadly codex alien hunters was never added. The deathwatch had chapter approved rules. Those codexes included the branches of the inquisition as well as their chamber militant. The relevant agents of the Imperium where also included.

I used Codex Witch Hunters when I started SoB in 5th edition and would not wish that experience on any other player. It straight up sucked. The armory list was riddled with caveats because the Canoness could take this, the inquisitor could take that, the priest could join in if he did a handstand first and the optimal build involved noob inquisitor Acolytes running around with collars on sticks and power armor.

It was designed, first and foremost to be an ally codex that you'd use to build a few squads of helpers to attach to your real army, second to be a dumping ground for a very disperate range of models under one catalogue (SoB, Inquisition, storm troopers, all flavors of assassin, and land raiders(!)) to keep them just relevant enough that they could keep selling them for another week - and it served that purpose across three editions.

It wasn't good, it wasn't supported, it arguably didn't function, the codex itself had to outline how to ally your inquisitional war band with other armies and by 5e the terminology had drifted and people would argue you couldn't do it, you were the only army that could take a land raider that your troops couldn't charge out of; and it was proof positive, to a lot of people, that Sisters of Battle were on the verge of being squatted, and was cited as proof of such for years and years.

Inquisition belong as singular (or small group...ular) attachments to existing armies. The same way they're implementing assassins.

The only reason sisters haven't been Squatted between then and the survey that brought them back, is because Squatting them would cause GW to have next to 0 noticably female models, and would make the calls for Female Space Marines unbearable, and would make the logic that not having them is sexist even stronger. After all, you wouldn't even have the strawman about SoB being equal to them, despite the fact that their are 10ish space marine codexes all with their own plastic models and a single Beta Codex for the Women, with metal models older than most players...

 Captain Joystick wrote:

 Nerak wrote:
It used to be the case. We hade codex deamonhunter (ordo malleus) and codex witch hunter (Ordo Hereticus) back in 3rd ed. Sadly codex alien hunters was never added. The deathwatch had chapter approved rules. Those codexes included the branches of the inquisition as well as their chamber militant. The relevant agents of the Imperium where also included.

I used Codex Witch Hunters when I started SoB in 5th edition and would not wish that experience on any other player. It straight up sucked. The armory list was riddled with caveats because the Canoness could take this, the inquisitor could take that, the priest could join in if he did a handstand first and the optimal build involved noob inquisitor Acolytes running around with collars on sticks and power armor.

It was designed, first and foremost to be an ally codex that you'd use to build a few squads of helpers to attach to your real army, second to be a dumping ground for a very disperate range of models under one catalogue (SoB, Inquisition, storm troopers, all flavors of assassin, and land raiders(!)) to keep them just relevant enough that they could keep selling them for another week - and it served that purpose across three editions.

It wasn't good, it wasn't supported, it arguably didn't function, the codex itself had to outline how to ally your inquisitional war band with other armies and by 5e the terminology had drifted and people would argue you couldn't do it, you were the only army that could take a land raider that your troops couldn't charge out of; and it was proof positive, to a lot of people, that Sisters of Battle were on the verge of being squatted, and was cited as proof of such for years and years.

Inquisition belong as singular (or small group...ular) attachments to existing armies. The same way they're implementing assassins.

The issue with Codex Witch Hunters in 5e wasnt that it was a codex designed to be run as allies, but that it was a Codex designed for 3rd Edition.

The inquisition is perhaps one of the most important and interesting parts of the Imperium and the lore as a whole, and it bothers me to no end that they get pushed further out of sight of the game by GW in order to push yet more power armored models.

While I agree that its dumb that the Inquisition is being sidelined, I think that the notion that its just to push more power armor is dumb. Considering that pretty much every Inquisitor they have ever released was a model in Power Armor. Also there that they could still push all that power armor while still pushing the Inquisition by having kept the Grey Knights with the Daemon Hunters, or the Deathwatch as part of the Ordo Xenos. Really it was only the Sisters who were separate from the Inquisition in the old days.

I think them separating from the Inquisition is more that GW wants to remove the Inquisition from the game (but not the lore) and less that they want to push power armor, cause like I said, they were doing both at the same time for a while.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 Ginjitzu wrote:
Is there something that would fit into an Imperial Agents book that wouldn't fit well into any of these books, or is there some other reason that "Agents" should be kept separate to the chambers militant, and given their own codex?

Imperial Assassins, for one. Rogue Traders, Navigators, Astropaths,

I was thinking that all three books would have datasheets for each of these.

Sisters of Silence,

I actually already thought they were part of the Custodes codex. I'm probably misremembering because the models were released at the same time.

Adeptus Arbites, Imperial Navy, even Imperial auditors

I didn't even know we had these.

The Adepta Sororitas are not controlled by the Ordo Hereticus, they're controlled by the Ecclesiarchy (although the Abbess of the Adepta Sororitas has on occasion been a High Lord in her own right). They just work with the Ordo Hereticus at times.

So the Ordo Hereticus doesn't have a dedicated chamber militant?

Gitdakka wrote:
It would be awesome if they consolidated all these factions under codex inquisition. Then give subfaction "ordo" keywords to appropriate units. Units like inquistitors or storm troopers would have all the ordo keywords so they could be included in any kind of ordo detatchment. Reduce codex amount so that we get more frequent faction updates.

And this way GK end up the csm of the inquisition, with maybe stuff like NDK GM being taken in to inquisitorial armies that are made out of SoB and IG. this way everyone who plays GK would get to here the same thing csm players are told right now. I can even imagine the list. 2-3 NDK, maybe the angel SoB, hordes of IG chaff, some SoB units that are good. Then soup in a castellan if those don't end up being nerfed.

The Adepta Sororitas are not controlled by the Ordo Hereticus, they're controlled by the Ecclesiarchy (although the Abbess of the Adepta Sororitas has on occasion been a High Lord in her own right). They just work with the Ordo Hereticus at times.

So the Ordo Hereticus doesn't have a dedicated chamber militant?

This is a common misconception. The chamber militants are not actually a part of the Inquisitorial order. A deathwatch captain for instance is not an Ordo Xenos operative. The line is very thin and blurry. What chamber militant means is that the relevant inquisitorial order has direct authority over the organization. The distinction is more practical then theoretical since in theory an inquisitors authority is more or less endless (exceptions being astartes chapters, rouge traders and to a small extent ADmech). The chamber militants are the GK, Grey Knights and SoB. They are not themselves part of the order though.

Maybe it'd help to think of them as Militarum Temptestus and the Inquisition as the imperial guard high commanders. In practicality it functions similarly.

In the case of the sisters the Ordo hereticus and the SoB where formed at roughly the same time, right after the age of apostasy. The Ecclesiarchy where forbidden from fielding men at arms after the incident and so an all women fighting organization arose ( ). Since both orders inception they've been cooperating and at some point the SoB where appointed as the chamber militant of the Ordo hereticus.

The 'cleanest' way to do it would be to put the bulk of the inquisition in with the sisters - they have a lot of shared units. Just make sure to include the inquisition faction keyword and HQ & troops choices for the purposes of allying the units out.

Then include the specific xenos/malleus inquisitors and named characters into the deathwatch and grey knight books, who get wargear options from their respective factions.

 Ginjitzu wrote:

Sisters of Silence,

I actually already thought they were part of the Custodes codex. I'm probably misremembering because the models were released at the same time.

They are both Talons of the Emperor, but GW kicked them to the curb for the custodes release as there were no new SoS models to sell.

 Captain Joystick wrote:
I used Codex Witch Hunters when I started SoB in 5th edition and would not wish that experience on any other player. It straight up sucked. /// and it was proof positive, to a lot of people, that Sisters of Battle were on the verge of being squatted, and was cited as proof of such for years and years.

Fears of squatting came more from the utter lack of model releases, their place in the update cycle being skipped over, two separate waves of model culls ~May-June of 2013 and 2014 that dropped about a third of the product line at a time when all of the specialist games were being killed off, and an 'interim' chapter approved codex that was printed for two months and then unavailable for two years. Honestly i'm surprised they made it out of 2013.
But the WH codex was decent enough for its time - just left behind as others were updated. By the standards of 3e books it was actually fairly straightforward.

 Nerak wrote:

The Adepta Sororitas are not controlled by the Ordo Hereticus, they're controlled by the Ecclesiarchy (although the Abbess of the Adepta Sororitas has on occasion been a High Lord in her own right). They just work with the Ordo Hereticus at times.

So the Ordo Hereticus doesn't have a dedicated chamber militant?

This is a common misconception. The chamber militants are not actually a part of the Inquisitorial order. A deathwatch captain for instance is not an Ordo Xenos operative. The line is very thin and blurry. What chamber militant means is that the relevant inquisitorial order has direct authority over the organization. The distinction is more practical then theoretical since in theory an inquisitors authority is more or less endless (exceptions being astartes chapters, rouge traders and to a small extent ADmech). The chamber militants are the GK, Grey Knights and SoB. They are not themselves part of the order though.

Maybe it'd help to think of them as Militarum Temptestus and the Inquisition as the imperial guard high commanders. In practicality it functions similarly.

In the case of the sisters the Ordo hereticus and the SoB where formed at roughly the same time, right after the age of apostasy. The Ecclesiarchy where forbidden from fielding men at arms after the incident and so an all women fighting organization arose ( ). Since both orders inception they've been cooperating and at some point the SoB where appointed as the chamber militant of the Ordo hereticus.

The other difference is that the Grey Knights and Deathwatch have been described as being under the direct control (as opposed to being drafted temporarily like everyone else) of the Inquisition since they were introduced into the faction. In the case of the Ordo Hereticus and Sisters of Battle, that link didn't exist (in fact, the Ordos Xenos and Hereticus didn't exist in the fluff) when Sisters of Battle were introduced as a full army; that only cam e later when they needed to add some troops to Codex: Witch Hunters.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
In the case of the Ordo Hereticus and Sisters of Battle, that link didn't exist (in fact, the Ordos Xenos and Hereticus didn't exist in the fluff) when Sisters of Battle were introduced as a full army; that only cam e later when they needed to add some troops to Codex: Witch Hunters.

Sisters of Battle codex, page 14, "The Ordo Hereticus"
The link between the two factions was formalised in the fluff over time, culminating with things like the Ordo Hereticus strike force in citadel journal #49.

In Witch Hunters the sisters were added to the inquisition rather than the other way around. It'd be interesting to know when the decision was made as the non-militant models that GW had made to fill out the new chapter approved units were either dropped or repurposed as inquisition models prior to their release - suggesting that codex:sisters of battle 3e was on the cards for a while.

I personally would like an 'Agents' codex, one that includes rogue traders, inquisition and other specialist groups. Ideally , including each as a seperate identity.

GK and DW would have the correct keywords added to their own codex to allow full integration if desired.

Rogue traders are a bit more difficult to do. They are not part of an army, they are often as near to unalined while still being imperium. Fluff wise they can allied with almost anyone...even xenos!!!

In reality, the place both rogue traders and inquisition belong is kill teams. There is the expansion with RT, but that is a fixed list. If GW could publish rules for inquisition and open up rogue traders(not likely), both to use very open (or multiple) keywords, they could even hire mercenaries from xenos and abhuman contacts. Necromunda makes a good source for some human mercenaries

On the subject of mercenaries , kroot should have their own codex, with keyword <Mercenary>.

A.T. wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
In the case of the Ordo Hereticus and Sisters of Battle, that link didn't exist (in fact, the Ordos Xenos and Hereticus didn't exist in the fluff) when Sisters of Battle were introduced as a full army; that only cam e later when they needed to add some troops to Codex: Witch Hunters.

Sisters of Battle codex, page 14, "The Ordo Hereticus"
The link between the two factions was formalised in the fluff over time, culminating with things like the Ordo Hereticus strike force in citadel journal #49.

In Witch Hunters the sisters were added to the inquisition rather than the other way around. It'd be interesting to know when the decision was made as the non-militant models that GW had made to fill out the new chapter approved units were either dropped or repurposed as inquisition models prior to their release - suggesting that codex:sisters of battle 3e was on the cards for a while.

Huh. Missed that for twenty-odd years. Still, that was when the Ordo Hereticus was invented. it also says that the Sisters of Battle are part of the Ecclesiarchy’s internal regulation, while the Ordo Hereticus remains separate. I like that idea, that the Ordo Hereticus’ role is for investigating the Ecclesiarchy, not working with them to investigate external doctrinal threats.